I believe that the law past by the Canadian Parliement would be ruled un-Constitutional if passed by the Congress and Senate in the USA, as non-wartime siezure of private property. It is clear that even under existing conditions, other freight customers and the stockholders are subsidizing the movement of Candadian grain. Having facilities, capital investment tied up in facilities, that are only used a fraction of the time means either higher prices have to be charged for their use or full-time users or tax-payers subsidize the part-time users. Public transit is an exreme case, with full use only during weekday rush hours, and tax-payers pick up the tab.
I am not saying that the Canadian approach is wrong. I am simply saying it is not that of the USA, not even under Obama, although Obama's health care is somewhat similar in philosophy.
AgentKid My goodness, that must have really gone over well in the early Reagan era. Strange but true. I'm glad you got to see it, probably not many of your fellow countrymen knew about that, let alone actually see it. Bruce
My goodness, that must have really gone over well in the early Reagan era. Strange but true. I'm glad you got to see it, probably not many of your fellow countrymen knew about that, let alone actually see it.
Bruce
blue streak 1In the 1970 - 80s I had many trips to Portland and laid over close to the Willamette river. Operation of the grain silos were very sporadic with no rhyme or reason. Several times a Russian grain freighter would be docked at one of many grain silos
So shovel the coal, let this rattler roll.
"A Train is a Place Going Somewhere" CP Rail Public Timetable
"O. S. Irricana"
. . . __ . ______
Thanks. I remember Crowsnest Pass had mostly potash hoppers when I visited, although it wasn't in grain season.
South of Vancouver BC, part of the proposal for the Gateway Pacific terminal is grain shipment, although I suspect mostly US grain would be shipped, it would provide another option. Congestion on the Fraser River lines wouldn't be eased, however, by Canadian trains going there. The terminal is likely a decade away if completed, as there is a great amount of resistance based on it also shipping coal.
AgentKid Significant amounts of grain, potash, and some sulphur, travel over the Crowsnest Pass to cross the border at Kingsgate BC/Eastport ID and use UP through Spokane,WA to Portland, OR. Bruce
Significant amounts of grain, potash, and some sulphur, travel over the Crowsnest Pass to cross the border at Kingsgate BC/Eastport ID and use UP through Spokane,WA to Portland, OR.
Bruce:: This and other posts help fill in a misunderstanding that I had.
In the 1970 - 80s I had many trips to Portland and laid over close to the Willamette river. Operation of the grain silos were very sporadic with no rhyme or reason. Several times a Russian grain freighter would be docked at one of many grain silos and be loading but the silos would not be unloading cars. Several silos used one or two road / rail track mobiles. The track mobiles would push pull grain cars into the unloading bays and depending on the location the empty cars would be either pulled thru or back out.
Even though the silo would evidently be partially full or empty the silo crews seemed to be in no hurry to unload grain cars. A UP yard job would pull out all the empty cars then push in as many full cars as it could depending on how many full cars were already there. The remaining full cars on the yard job would then go back to yard and would return later. A few of the silos had such limited rail space that the yard job would return a couple times a day.
The silo crews seemed to be in no hurry and often would wait before unloading more cars. Definitely not in a hurry except one silo I observed working 24/7.
Did not pay attention to the grain cars ownership.
Thinking back now I do not recall ever seeing any Russian crew taking shore leave. Did see some from other ships but who knows ?
AgentKidI checked on the Sultran website and indeed they no longer operate into the US. Here is the page I found:
We see a lot of Sultran through Chilliwack, CP power IIRC, bound I believe for North Vancouver sulphur transload which is part of Port Metro Vancouver.
Charlie
Chilliwack, BC
cx500the sulphur trains from Pectin that go through the Crowsnest Pass generally head north to the main line and Vancouver (BC).
I checked on the Sultran website and indeed they no longer operate into the US. Here is the page I found:
http://www.sultran.com/About/WhereWeOperate.aspx
cx500But I believe all those trains originate on the former SOO Line territory so are completely separate from the Canadian farmers' complaints.
I am not sure that is correct. I do know that it was the Alberta Wheat Pool and the United Grain Growers that started the idea of moving Canadian grain through Portland. But it was during my time in high school, which would put it in the early '70's, not the late '60's, as I had stated in my earlier post.
But all grain shipments are seasonal, so at any time it could be either Canadian or US grain. Going by SOO reporting marks on covered hoppers is not a reliable indicator, given the number of covered hoppers one sees with SOO marks heading WB out of Calgary. I think both of us would need to see the waybills to be sure.
There are indeed grain trains going through the Crowsnest Pass to be interchanged with the Union Pacific at Kingsgate/Eastport and on to the US northwest. But I believe all those trains originate on the former SOO Line territory so are completely separate from the Canadian farmers' complaints. Potash goes south there too, but the sulphur trains from Pectin that go through the Crowsnest Pass generally head north to the main line and Vancouver (BC).
John
Hey Kid
I knew you would deliver information and perspective and from a Canadian point of view....
We need to tell our story form north of the 49th....
About Raymond Burr....just a diversion...if you get my drift...
lenzfamilyBy the way, Raymond Burr (PM) came from New Westminster IIRC.
Really more of a story for the Chatterbox, but I will tell it anyway.
Using conventional methods of documentation you cannot actually prove Raymond Burr was born, let alone where. He always said he was born in Canada. But, following the paperwork, it appears he arrived fully formed as a graduate of a high school in California. He used this diploma as his documentation to join the US military in WWII. He, of course, never thought he was going to be famous and historians would want to know this sort of thing, but he badly wanted to serve and it is thought he destroyed all his earlier paperwork to better conceal the fact he was gay.
NorthWestHow much traffic is routed over Crowsnest Pass, and the old Spokane International to Vancouver, WA?
Significant amounts of grain, potash, and some sulphur, travel over the Crowsnest Pass to cross the border at Kingsgate BC/Eastport ID and use UP through Spokane,WA to Portland, OR. Sultran (sulphur) and Canpotex (potash) have their own facilities there, operated by US subsidiaries.
This business began in the late 60's as a union busting tactic by the grain companies to deal with what was becoming an annual event, strikes by Longshoremen in Vancouver, BC
BaltACD The distribution 'network' from the plains to West Coast ports appears to be in reality a single basket - a single basket that isn't big enough for all concerned. Do CN & CP have the capacity to keep the port facilities continuously working.
The distribution 'network' from the plains to West Coast ports appears to be in reality a single basket - a single basket that isn't big enough for all concerned.
Do CN & CP have the capacity to keep the port facilities continuously working.
The West Coast ports are where the customers want to come to pick up their orders. As I mentioned above, this business just exploded within the last 50 years out of the 130+ year history of the CPR.
CN and CP can do the job when they exclude certain other customers.
lenzfamily A fraction goes through Churchill (North and East) on Hudson's Bay, although the shipping season is at best 4 months and the ROW through to Churchill from Winnipeg is about 1300 km of limited speed track and worse, especially from Thompson to Churchill, during freeze-up and breakup. Remember, we are a country with the approximate population of California.
A fraction goes through Churchill (North and East) on Hudson's Bay, although the shipping season is at best 4 months and the ROW through to Churchill from Winnipeg is about 1300 km of limited speed track and worse, especially from Thompson to Churchill, during freeze-up and breakup.
Remember, we are a country with the approximate population of California.
I believe the grain business through Churchill, MB ended when CN sold the line. The end came because there were no shipping companies who wanted to serve that port.
As to population distribution, at one time, the so-called Montreal-Windsor corridor had about the same population as New York City. The rest of the country including the corridor had about the same population as New York State, including NYC.
Gentlemen, sorry for the delay getting back to you. I was having one of those days when everything that had to be done, had to be done RIGHT NOW! I will answer Balt's questions first and then deal with the questions blue streak 1 asked.
Canada's grain industry can produce grain out of all proportion to what we can consume. I think we only use a WAG of 15-20% of our own production. Prior to the late 1960's our exports mostly went through Thunder Bay and Montreal to the UK and Europe. That changed after Canada elected P. E. Trudeau as Prime Minister, as that man had no qualms about dealing with the old Soviet Union and China. Then the business exploded through Vancouver in a way the builders never imagined.
Exports to the US have had a funny on-again off-again history. In recent years, during the push to end the operation of the Canadian Wheat Board, there were those touting the benefits of unrestricted access to US markets. Then they discovered the US buyers were buying our grain at one price, and then selling their US grown grain to China at a higher price. These same folks are no long such enthusiasts.
Now on to blue streak 1's questions. Answers in blue.
blue streak 1 What are the returns on grain hauling in the USA versus Canada ? I have tried to determine that, but both CN and CP combine their US and Canadian operations in their fiscal statements and report in Canadian dollars. I suspect there are a lot of government regulatory types on both sides of the border who would like to know the same thing, to better serve their own objectives. We do not know the powers of various government authorities in Canada but that brings up several questions. Some possible actions Canada may wand or order to be implemented . 1. Order more grain cars built ? As EHH pointed out in today's Newswire story, that would clog the system even worse. Like adding more cars to a rush hour. 2. Will the 2 RRs have to bring cars from the USA Until I read today's story I assumed that would be one of the solutions. IMO I think they will still have to. 3. Buy / lease more locos for next ear ? According to the story, it doesn't sound like it. But don't get me started about EHH's ability to allocate locomotives, I'm just too tired right now. 4. Order some sidings to be restored to at least previous lengths but maybe some minimum that can be used by winter time trains ? blue streak 1, that was a light bulb moment for me when I read that this morning. I have been wondering for years why there are still so many 5-6000 ft. sidings on the mainlines. They probably only get used when it drops below 20 below. In EHH's early years at CN he ripped a lot of those old sidings out, and now CN is paying for it. To the tune of about $100 million according to the one story I linked to. Fortunately, he hasn't been at CP long enough to do that kind of damage yet. 5. Other infrastructure improvements that will improve thru put Oh, I have a wish list alright, but it is too late for that today. 6. Order different operating practices at grain elevators ? Truthfully I am not familiar enough with elevator procedures once the cars are delivered to them, to offer any suggestions.
What are the returns on grain hauling in the USA versus Canada ?
I have tried to determine that, but both CN and CP combine their US and Canadian operations in their fiscal statements and report in Canadian dollars. I suspect there are a lot of government regulatory types on both sides of the border who would like to know the same thing, to better serve their own objectives.
We do not know the powers of various government authorities in Canada but that brings up several questions. Some possible actions Canada may wand or order to be implemented .
1. Order more grain cars built ?
As EHH pointed out in today's Newswire story, that would clog the system even worse. Like adding more cars to a rush hour.
2. Will the 2 RRs have to bring cars from the USA
Until I read today's story I assumed that would be one of the solutions. IMO I think they will still have to.
3. Buy / lease more locos for next ear ?
According to the story, it doesn't sound like it. But don't get me started about EHH's ability to allocate locomotives, I'm just too tired right now.
4. Order some sidings to be restored to at least previous lengths but maybe some minimum that can be used by winter time trains ?
blue streak 1, that was a light bulb moment for me when I read that this morning. I have been wondering for years why there are still so many 5-6000 ft. sidings on the mainlines. They probably only get used when it drops below 20 below. In EHH's early years at CN he ripped a lot of those old sidings out, and now CN is paying for it. To the tune of about $100 million according to the one story I linked to. Fortunately, he hasn't been at CP long enough to do that kind of damage yet.
5. Other infrastructure improvements that will improve thru put
Oh, I have a wish list alright, but it is too late for that today.
6. Order different operating practices at grain elevators ?
Truthfully I am not familiar enough with elevator procedures once the cars are delivered to them, to offer any suggestions.
I have enjoyed these discussions.
A few US RR companies have built large storage facilities, just to get more Grain business. This helps regulate shortages and bottle ups, but can tie up more cars. More sidings were built. I think one was a short line and the other was BNSF. With the mixed freight traffic flow on the Canada west corridor getting very big, running more tracks only makes sense. Somehow I think the current "tax" or charging system based off profit there will inhibit this.
On another note, trains travel at various speeds. To use "velocity" is ridiculous as the train never goes perfectly straight in a single direction... Old habits die hard I guess. Speed is scalar, and is MPH, or KPH
I know RR's use the word, not stepping on toes here, just throwing in some facts
I wondered about that too. As far as I know not a great deal from the trains I've seen moving though Moyie, BC (CP, Moyie Sub) where my youngest brother lives. Again, anecdotal, but nothing like what I see coming through Chilliwack BC on CN where I live.
One week I was there a year or so ago, about 4 trains a day each way, not all going to Vancouver WA. Some of these trains also head to Creston (where the only two grain elevators serving the Creston Valley have been removed) and then toTrail (Teck Cominco) and Castelgar (Celgar Pulp).
Hope this helps.
BaltACD What is the tonnage capacity of the port facilities and their ability to turn that tonnage over? Do CN & CP have the capacity to keep the port facilities continuously working. Are the ports deep draft or something less. Back in the day, Baltimore had 39 foot draft, vessels would load between 50K & 60K tons at Baltimore and then go down the Chesapeake Bay to Newport News - a deep draft port and top off with another 90K tons - so they could deliver 150K tons to destinations overseas. Knowing that we are dealing with governmental bodies with the various port operating authorities as well as the Canadian grain board - finding real hard facts would tax Perry Mason, Matlock and a whole army of fact slueths
What is the tonnage capacity of the port facilities and their ability to turn that tonnage over? Do CN & CP have the capacity to keep the port facilities continuously working. Are the ports deep draft or something less. Back in the day, Baltimore had 39 foot draft, vessels would load between 50K & 60K tons at Baltimore and then go down the Chesapeake Bay to Newport News - a deep draft port and top off with another 90K tons - so they could deliver 150K tons to destinations overseas.
Knowing that we are dealing with governmental bodies with the various port operating authorities as well as the Canadian grain board - finding real hard facts would tax Perry Mason, Matlock and a whole army of fact slueths
The only really deep draft port of the ones I mentioned previously is Prince Rupert.
Part of the problem is the regulatory and administrative regime for Canadian Ports.
The other part of the problem, as I see it (and trust me I'm an observer and not an expert) is one of railway ability (as Kid said) to get grain and any other cars in and out of ports and keep the system fluid given the system constraints Kid and I have mentioned in earlier posts. I think that's part of what CN and CP are trying to emphasise is part of the problem , espeically when when Feenie (CN) and Greenberg (CP) talk about other parts of the supply chain being a problem too, although I'm sure the railways also have lots to account for here.
Vancouver has far and away the greatest port capacity, grain, sulphur and containers through Vancouver, mostly coal through Roberts Bank. The others have less capacity comparatively speaking. I'm sorry I can't give you more detail than this. Others I'm sure would be able to provide that data.
The regulatory and administrative maze is is to put it kindly, Byzantine.
By the way, Raymond Burr (PM) came from New Westminster IIRC. Probably would be shaking his head..... as you say.
Currently 90% of container traffic is not moving though Vancouver due to 1400 union and non-union drivers currently on strike.
Wahoo........!!!!!
How much traffic is routed over Crowsnest Pass, and the old Spokane International to Vancouver, WA?
lenzfamily Balt Much of our grain goes for export and has for many years. As far as I know the Canadian market is a fraction of the export market. Much goes through Vancouver, WB, some volume goes through Thunder Bay, Lake Superior, EB. I expect relatively little, quite surprisingly, through Prince Rupert WB although over time this may change if the CN Skeena sub can be upgraded from Prince George. They'd have a hell of a time between Terrace and Rupert doing that. A fraction goes through Churchill (North and East) on Hudson's Bay, although the shipping season is at best 4 months and the ROW through to Churchill from Winnipeg is about 1300 km of limited speed track and worse, especially from Thompson to Churchill, during freeze-up and breakup. Remember, we are a country with the approximate population of California. We do a lot of resource based export along with grain. That's always been our strength although it is diversifying even more as time goes on. Our railway network is a fraction of yours (check it out on a map) so I would think alternative means of routing rail traffic within our country is quite restricted by comparison to yours. You're a dispatcher of many years experience. I expect this scenario would make you blanch...and with good reason. Charlie Chilliwack, BC
Balt
Much of our grain goes for export and has for many years. As far as I know the Canadian market is a fraction of the export market. Much goes through Vancouver, WB, some volume goes through Thunder Bay, Lake Superior, EB. I expect relatively little, quite surprisingly, through Prince Rupert WB although over time this may change if the CN Skeena sub can be upgraded from Prince George. They'd have a hell of a time between Terrace and Rupert doing that. A fraction goes through Churchill (North and East) on Hudson's Bay, although the shipping season is at best 4 months and the ROW through to Churchill from Winnipeg is about 1300 km of limited speed track and worse, especially from Thompson to Churchill, during freeze-up and breakup.
Remember, we are a country with the approximate population of California. We do a lot of resource based export along with grain. That's always been our strength although it is diversifying even more as time goes on.
Our railway network is a fraction of yours (check it out on a map) so I would think alternative means of routing rail traffic within our country is quite restricted by comparison to yours.
You're a dispatcher of many years experience. I expect this scenario would make you blanch...and with good reason.
That is why I asked the question. When you put all your eggs in one basket you are limited by the size of the basket. The distribution 'network' from the plains to West Coast ports appears to be in reality a single basket - a single basket that isn't big enough for all concerned.
Only idiots continue to do the same thing over and over, year after year and expect a different result.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
What is the business model for Canadian grain? Is it mostly for export or are there signifigant volumes that are used for internal Canadian use.
US Grain has multiple US consumers - Ethanol production, Industrial process, Animal Feed and probably 101 other uses in addition to export. As a consequence, grain moves on multiple routes and rarely ends up being the cause of congestion on any of the routes.
7. Will have a later post about observed USA elevator operating practices.
AgentKid harlie, You snuck this in while I was answering Balt. You have to tell us more. How do they interface between the railways and the elevators? Bruce
harlie, You snuck this in while I was answering Balt. You have to tell us more. How do they interface between the railways and the elevators?
With great difficulty, as you pointed out succinctly in your last post about the grain companies.
Just add port Metro Vancouver to the list of 'don't you railways worry your little pointed heads about.....' observation.
Part of the problem is, as you well recognize, there just isn't enough capacity EB/WB especially in the CP Stoney Creek and Mountain Subs or the CN Albreda Sub which transit the Selkirk's and the Rockies. They have been making improvements particularly outside these three subdivisions, but the problem is that these three just remain choke points in the system. Mount MacDonald Tunnel was a $3B+ stab at a fix for Directional running EB/WB in that area, but beyond that, I think they have limited options other than just east of Revelstoke. It's still painful to watch trains WB on Stoney Creek and at Roger's Pass, since the Helper Crews at Stoney Creek and Glacier were removed many years ago now. Directional running WB CN EB CP Kamloops to Vancouver has helped but the problem above still remains. Don't know how much CN has done to Hinton Sub or CP to Laggan Sub by way of improvements. Even so, Mountain and Albreda sit there.....
Add to the grain the following: sulphur, coal and container traffic and, well you know the rest. Get your gag reflex ready.
Add to this the administrative overlays of Ports and grain companies and sulpher and container and coal and plus the Municipal, provincial and Federal government and their concerns and wow......
Add to that, today 2000 container truckers, union and non-union, hit the picket line in Port Metro Vancouver.....
Stay tuned........'Happy Days are Here Again' in Lotusland (aka BC)
I don't know the Canadian business model.
In the model I am familiar with, grain companies owned the elevator/transloading facilities at port. They would load and accept more grain to the port than they could handle with their elevator - until the ship arrived. They were using railroad cars for the business, so they didn't care about turnaround, only the railroad did.
The grain company valued their elevator/transloading pier so much that the pier fell into the harbor from a lack of maintenance and they closed the elevator.
lenzfamilyThe latter. . . They are an entity unto themselves often enough. The feds have a strong say in their operation which is evident especially in ongoing discussions about pipeline terminals and the like.
Charlie, You snuck this in while I was answering Balt. You have to tell us more. How do they interface between the railways and the elevators?
BaltACDThe speed of the transloading facilities is the normal determinate in cycle times.
That is not the case here. The point I was trying to make is the constraint posed by the mountain railroading between Calgary and Vancouver. You simply can't get enough loads out to Vancouver and empties back to Calgary at the same time to overload the transloading facilities, as you call them, in Vancouver. We call them elevators. And I have to admit I never heard of Port Authorities until I started reading TRAINS.
The business has always been conducted between the railways, and the grain companies, who both load the grain at the country elevators and unload the grain into their own elevators at the docks. Although this has been changing as grain companies, like other big corporations, spin off profit centres or sell them to specialists in a particular field. I know there are others, but the only one I am familiar with is at Thunder Bay, ON. The former Saskatchewan Wheat Pool Elevator there is now operated by Mission Terminals.
I can't remember when I read this, but it was before the internet, I'm just not sure if it was before or after the Mt. MacDonald Tunnel opened in 1986. The article said; the railways would improve their deliveries to the coast if the grain companies would just tell them when the ships were due, so they could have set deadlines. The grain companies said essentially, don't worry your pointed little heads about that, just haul all grain, all the time, and we can load everything you can get to us. The railways of course replied, that is impossible, we have other customers. Unfortunately, in typical Canadian fashion, this impasse was never resolved to everyone's satisfaction
Fast forward to 2014, the terms may change, but the concepts don't. In an article published several days before the one blue streak 1 mentioned, the railways said they couldn't provide better service to the grain companies because the grain companies hadn't signed "shipping agreements" that would spell out performance levels and deadlines. The grain companies won't sign because setting performance levels and deadlines would mean the railways could charge more to provide this up-level service. Still no resolution in sight. And the beat goes on.
BaltACDWho is in charge of the transloading facilities at the Western Canada ports? Railroads? Port Authorities?
The latter. That's a major part of the problem Agent Kid refers to. They are an entity unto themselves often enough. The feds have a strong say in their operation which is evident especially in ongoing discussions about pipeline terminals and the like.
this is a very tangled web, believe me.....
AgentKid I do want to address Ed Greenberg's comment further. I have no reason to doubt that his assertions about CP's deliveries to the coast are correct, but he does not address the real problem, Cycle Time. You can haul that many loads west, or return that many empties EB, but you cannot do both at once. Further significant investment in infrastructure will be required before a balanced cycle can ever be achieved reliably on a year round basis. Bruce
I do want to address Ed Greenberg's comment further. I have no reason to doubt that his assertions about CP's deliveries to the coast are correct, but he does not address the real problem, Cycle Time. You can haul that many loads west, or return that many empties EB, but you cannot do both at once. Further significant investment in infrastructure will be required before a balanced cycle can ever be achieved reliably on a year round basis.
Who is in charge of the transloading facilities at the Western Canada ports? Railroads? Port Authorities?
The speed of the transloading facilities is the normal determinate in cycle times. If the transloading facility can handle a train a day and the railroad delivers two, they aren't doing the cycle time any benefits. Secondarily, loading time at the elevators. I suspect there are many more elevator able to load trains than there are port transloading facilities.
I'm still with you. That's why your CP ops insight/experience was important IMHO.
I value your comments and perspective from where you sit/stand.....
blue streak 1Yearly ritual of Canadian RR getting blasted for not carrying grain in timely manner and RRs saing they are not receiving enough revenue.
First, I wanted to thank blue streak 1 for bringing this matter to our attention. As one of Newton's Laws points out, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. As was pointed out on a Canadian RR forum yesterday, now we await the "fine levy" season which will soon follow. It was pointed out that these fines have rarely been that significant. During EHH's tenure at CN, that company raised appealing those fines up to almost an art form. They would cite weather, avalanches, and a plethora of other excuses. IIRC I believe some of those appeals still haven't been resolved.
I want to thank Balt for posting the Railway Age article. It did a fairly good job of covering the issue. That CN invested $100 million is just one of many projects that need to be completed, so kudos to CN for dealing with that aspect of the problem. Also, I was under the impression that one of EHH's achievements while at CN was getting the elevators at Vancouver to accept cars on a 24/7 basis. I did not realize some are apparently still not doing so.
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