A few US RR companies have built large storage facilities, just to get more Grain business. This helps regulate shortages and bottle ups, but can tie up more cars. More sidings were built. I think one was a short line and the other was BNSF. With the mixed freight traffic flow on the Canada west corridor getting very big, running more tracks only makes sense. Somehow I think the current "tax" or charging system based off profit there will inhibit this.
On another note, trains travel at various speeds. To use "velocity" is ridiculous as the train never goes perfectly straight in a single direction... Old habits die hard I guess. Speed is scalar, and is MPH, or KPH
I know RR's use the word, not stepping on toes here, just throwing in some facts
Gentlemen, sorry for the delay getting back to you. I was having one of those days when everything that had to be done, had to be done RIGHT NOW! I will answer Balt's questions first and then deal with the questions blue streak 1 asked.
Canada's grain industry can produce grain out of all proportion to what we can consume. I think we only use a WAG of 15-20% of our own production. Prior to the late 1960's our exports mostly went through Thunder Bay and Montreal to the UK and Europe. That changed after Canada elected P. E. Trudeau as Prime Minister, as that man had no qualms about dealing with the old Soviet Union and China. Then the business exploded through Vancouver in a way the builders never imagined.
Exports to the US have had a funny on-again off-again history. In recent years, during the push to end the operation of the Canadian Wheat Board, there were those touting the benefits of unrestricted access to US markets. Then they discovered the US buyers were buying our grain at one price, and then selling their US grown grain to China at a higher price. These same folks are no long such enthusiasts.
Now on to blue streak 1's questions. Answers in blue.
blue streak 1 What are the returns on grain hauling in the USA versus Canada ? I have tried to determine that, but both CN and CP combine their US and Canadian operations in their fiscal statements and report in Canadian dollars. I suspect there are a lot of government regulatory types on both sides of the border who would like to know the same thing, to better serve their own objectives. We do not know the powers of various government authorities in Canada but that brings up several questions. Some possible actions Canada may wand or order to be implemented . 1. Order more grain cars built ? As EHH pointed out in today's Newswire story, that would clog the system even worse. Like adding more cars to a rush hour. 2. Will the 2 RRs have to bring cars from the USA Until I read today's story I assumed that would be one of the solutions. IMO I think they will still have to. 3. Buy / lease more locos for next ear ? According to the story, it doesn't sound like it. But don't get me started about EHH's ability to allocate locomotives, I'm just too tired right now. 4. Order some sidings to be restored to at least previous lengths but maybe some minimum that can be used by winter time trains ? blue streak 1, that was a light bulb moment for me when I read that this morning. I have been wondering for years why there are still so many 5-6000 ft. sidings on the mainlines. They probably only get used when it drops below 20 below. In EHH's early years at CN he ripped a lot of those old sidings out, and now CN is paying for it. To the tune of about $100 million according to the one story I linked to. Fortunately, he hasn't been at CP long enough to do that kind of damage yet. 5. Other infrastructure improvements that will improve thru put Oh, I have a wish list alright, but it is too late for that today. 6. Order different operating practices at grain elevators ? Truthfully I am not familiar enough with elevator procedures once the cars are delivered to them, to offer any suggestions.
What are the returns on grain hauling in the USA versus Canada ?
I have tried to determine that, but both CN and CP combine their US and Canadian operations in their fiscal statements and report in Canadian dollars. I suspect there are a lot of government regulatory types on both sides of the border who would like to know the same thing, to better serve their own objectives.
We do not know the powers of various government authorities in Canada but that brings up several questions. Some possible actions Canada may wand or order to be implemented .
1. Order more grain cars built ?
As EHH pointed out in today's Newswire story, that would clog the system even worse. Like adding more cars to a rush hour.
2. Will the 2 RRs have to bring cars from the USA
Until I read today's story I assumed that would be one of the solutions. IMO I think they will still have to.
3. Buy / lease more locos for next ear ?
According to the story, it doesn't sound like it. But don't get me started about EHH's ability to allocate locomotives, I'm just too tired right now.
4. Order some sidings to be restored to at least previous lengths but maybe some minimum that can be used by winter time trains ?
blue streak 1, that was a light bulb moment for me when I read that this morning. I have been wondering for years why there are still so many 5-6000 ft. sidings on the mainlines. They probably only get used when it drops below 20 below. In EHH's early years at CN he ripped a lot of those old sidings out, and now CN is paying for it. To the tune of about $100 million according to the one story I linked to. Fortunately, he hasn't been at CP long enough to do that kind of damage yet.
5. Other infrastructure improvements that will improve thru put
Oh, I have a wish list alright, but it is too late for that today.
6. Order different operating practices at grain elevators ?
Truthfully I am not familiar enough with elevator procedures once the cars are delivered to them, to offer any suggestions.
I have enjoyed these discussions.
Bruce
So shovel the coal, let this rattler roll.
"A Train is a Place Going Somewhere" CP Rail Public Timetable
"O. S. Irricana"
. . . __ . ______
lenzfamily A fraction goes through Churchill (North and East) on Hudson's Bay, although the shipping season is at best 4 months and the ROW through to Churchill from Winnipeg is about 1300 km of limited speed track and worse, especially from Thompson to Churchill, during freeze-up and breakup. Remember, we are a country with the approximate population of California.
A fraction goes through Churchill (North and East) on Hudson's Bay, although the shipping season is at best 4 months and the ROW through to Churchill from Winnipeg is about 1300 km of limited speed track and worse, especially from Thompson to Churchill, during freeze-up and breakup.
Remember, we are a country with the approximate population of California.
I believe the grain business through Churchill, MB ended when CN sold the line. The end came because there were no shipping companies who wanted to serve that port.
As to population distribution, at one time, the so-called Montreal-Windsor corridor had about the same population as New York City. The rest of the country including the corridor had about the same population as New York State, including NYC.
BaltACD The distribution 'network' from the plains to West Coast ports appears to be in reality a single basket - a single basket that isn't big enough for all concerned. Do CN & CP have the capacity to keep the port facilities continuously working.
The distribution 'network' from the plains to West Coast ports appears to be in reality a single basket - a single basket that isn't big enough for all concerned.
Do CN & CP have the capacity to keep the port facilities continuously working.
The West Coast ports are where the customers want to come to pick up their orders. As I mentioned above, this business just exploded within the last 50 years out of the 130+ year history of the CPR.
CN and CP can do the job when they exclude certain other customers.
NorthWestHow much traffic is routed over Crowsnest Pass, and the old Spokane International to Vancouver, WA?
Significant amounts of grain, potash, and some sulphur, travel over the Crowsnest Pass to cross the border at Kingsgate BC/Eastport ID and use UP through Spokane,WA to Portland, OR. Sultran (sulphur) and Canpotex (potash) have their own facilities there, operated by US subsidiaries.
This business began in the late 60's as a union busting tactic by the grain companies to deal with what was becoming an annual event, strikes by Longshoremen in Vancouver, BC
lenzfamilyBy the way, Raymond Burr (PM) came from New Westminster IIRC.
Really more of a story for the Chatterbox, but I will tell it anyway.
Using conventional methods of documentation you cannot actually prove Raymond Burr was born, let alone where. He always said he was born in Canada. But, following the paperwork, it appears he arrived fully formed as a graduate of a high school in California. He used this diploma as his documentation to join the US military in WWII. He, of course, never thought he was going to be famous and historians would want to know this sort of thing, but he badly wanted to serve and it is thought he destroyed all his earlier paperwork to better conceal the fact he was gay.
Hey Kid
I knew you would deliver information and perspective and from a Canadian point of view....
We need to tell our story form north of the 49th....
About Raymond Burr....just a diversion...if you get my drift...
Charlie
Chilliwack, BC
There are indeed grain trains going through the Crowsnest Pass to be interchanged with the Union Pacific at Kingsgate/Eastport and on to the US northwest. But I believe all those trains originate on the former SOO Line territory so are completely separate from the Canadian farmers' complaints. Potash goes south there too, but the sulphur trains from Pectin that go through the Crowsnest Pass generally head north to the main line and Vancouver (BC).
John
cx500the sulphur trains from Pectin that go through the Crowsnest Pass generally head north to the main line and Vancouver (BC).
I checked on the Sultran website and indeed they no longer operate into the US. Here is the page I found:
http://www.sultran.com/About/WhereWeOperate.aspx
cx500But I believe all those trains originate on the former SOO Line territory so are completely separate from the Canadian farmers' complaints.
I am not sure that is correct. I do know that it was the Alberta Wheat Pool and the United Grain Growers that started the idea of moving Canadian grain through Portland. But it was during my time in high school, which would put it in the early '70's, not the late '60's, as I had stated in my earlier post.
But all grain shipments are seasonal, so at any time it could be either Canadian or US grain. Going by SOO reporting marks on covered hoppers is not a reliable indicator, given the number of covered hoppers one sees with SOO marks heading WB out of Calgary. I think both of us would need to see the waybills to be sure.
AgentKidI checked on the Sultran website and indeed they no longer operate into the US. Here is the page I found:
We see a lot of Sultran through Chilliwack, CP power IIRC, bound I believe for North Vancouver sulphur transload which is part of Port Metro Vancouver.
AgentKid Significant amounts of grain, potash, and some sulphur, travel over the Crowsnest Pass to cross the border at Kingsgate BC/Eastport ID and use UP through Spokane,WA to Portland, OR. Bruce
Significant amounts of grain, potash, and some sulphur, travel over the Crowsnest Pass to cross the border at Kingsgate BC/Eastport ID and use UP through Spokane,WA to Portland, OR.
Bruce:: This and other posts help fill in a misunderstanding that I had.
In the 1970 - 80s I had many trips to Portland and laid over close to the Willamette river. Operation of the grain silos were very sporadic with no rhyme or reason. Several times a Russian grain freighter would be docked at one of many grain silos and be loading but the silos would not be unloading cars. Several silos used one or two road / rail track mobiles. The track mobiles would push pull grain cars into the unloading bays and depending on the location the empty cars would be either pulled thru or back out.
Even though the silo would evidently be partially full or empty the silo crews seemed to be in no hurry to unload grain cars. A UP yard job would pull out all the empty cars then push in as many full cars as it could depending on how many full cars were already there. The remaining full cars on the yard job would then go back to yard and would return later. A few of the silos had such limited rail space that the yard job would return a couple times a day.
The silo crews seemed to be in no hurry and often would wait before unloading more cars. Definitely not in a hurry except one silo I observed working 24/7.
Did not pay attention to the grain cars ownership.
Thinking back now I do not recall ever seeing any Russian crew taking shore leave. Did see some from other ships but who knows ?
Thanks. I remember Crowsnest Pass had mostly potash hoppers when I visited, although it wasn't in grain season.
South of Vancouver BC, part of the proposal for the Gateway Pacific terminal is grain shipment, although I suspect mostly US grain would be shipped, it would provide another option. Congestion on the Fraser River lines wouldn't be eased, however, by Canadian trains going there. The terminal is likely a decade away if completed, as there is a great amount of resistance based on it also shipping coal.
blue streak 1In the 1970 - 80s I had many trips to Portland and laid over close to the Willamette river. Operation of the grain silos were very sporadic with no rhyme or reason. Several times a Russian grain freighter would be docked at one of many grain silos
My goodness, that must have really gone over well in the early Reagan era. Strange but true. I'm glad you got to see it, probably not many of your fellow countrymen knew about that, let alone actually see it.
AgentKid My goodness, that must have really gone over well in the early Reagan era. Strange but true. I'm glad you got to see it, probably not many of your fellow countrymen knew about that, let alone actually see it. Bruce
I believe that the law past by the Canadian Parliement would be ruled un-Constitutional if passed by the Congress and Senate in the USA, as non-wartime siezure of private property. It is clear that even under existing conditions, other freight customers and the stockholders are subsidizing the movement of Candadian grain. Having facilities, capital investment tied up in facilities, that are only used a fraction of the time means either higher prices have to be charged for their use or full-time users or tax-payers subsidize the part-time users. Public transit is an exreme case, with full use only during weekday rush hours, and tax-payers pick up the tab.
I am not saying that the Canadian approach is wrong. I am simply saying it is not that of the USA, not even under Obama, although Obama's health care is somewhat similar in philosophy.
Hi All
The Federal and Provincial governments are weighing in on the Port Metro Vancouver truckers Strike, according to the CBC news this afternoon.
Stay tuned.....
PS
Watch Canadian Law unfold again in this regard....
C
As of noon today PDT CN is running WB container traffic on the Yale Sub. CP has been running a lot of grain in long trains with just about every kind of grain car you can imagine.
Looks like the tide is starting to turn and the Minister's Orders (Transport) are having the desired effect. The province of BC also was pushing hard for resolution and PMV has finally put some consultative structures in place to address the drivers' (especially the non union drivers') concerns re undercutting rates, long wait times at terminals etc
Ms Raitt has had a busy week of it. She really is earning her keep. That's as it should be....
The CBC has provided more info as of 3pm PDT.
The trucker's strike has not finished however some are back at work and others appear to be following. A 14 point proposal has been tabled and is now starting to be worked over by the port and the unions although at this point not is formal or final and may not be for a while yet. It is clear that nobody want to lose jobs and the 'hit' to local, regional, national economic sectors which rely on PMV.
The ball really is in the court of PMV and the truckers to get things moving, unless the federal Transport Minister issues a 'back to work' order and an arbitrated settlement ensues .
We'll muddle through as usual I guess.
Charlie, good to see things are starting to sort themselves out on the coast.
I was reading a story about the difficulties being faced on the Great Lakes as regards to their problems with ice, in getting the 2014 shipping season started. It provided the following bit of information:
Wade Sobkowich, executive director of the Western Grain Elevator Association, said as much as 30 per cent of grain from the Prairies is shipped on freighters through Thunder Bay.
This should help us frame any further discussion on this issue. I had not seen that number published before.
I once asked Dad about the split between EB and WB grain and when the change to mostly Vancouver bound grain occurred. He said during our time at Irricana, AB, from Dec. 1956 to Jan, 1965, was when he first noticed it. When we moved there he was booking almost all grain from the elevators EB to the "Lakehead", Fort William and Port Arthur then, now Thunder Bay, ON. The last year we were there however, for the first time, he booked just more than half the grain WB to Vancouver. This was a gradual shift, based on distances to port. The shift to Vancouver started in Alberta, then moved through Saskatchewan, and finally some Manitoba grain was heading west.
In those days there were more elevator station locations than manned stations. They may have been manned stations during the homesteader era, but many did not last through the Great Depression. Dad booked grain for five stations; Keoma and Dalroy, which were south of us on the Langdon Sub., as well as Craigdhu (until about '60-'-61, when it closed) and Nightingale, east of us on the Irricana Sub., and Irricana.
I haven't read much else on this issue, it could be the calm before the storm.
You could very well be right.
The PMV solution going forward is the usual Harper approach to labour disputes, which is to let the parties involved try to sort it out, in this case PMV and the truckers. If that doesn't work watch the Minister's Orders or Parliamentary Acts start to flow. Part of this as usual is optics (who's to blame) tied naturally to politics upon which I will not comment further, if you know what I mean.
So what else is new?? (Pardon my cynicism. It's happened this way too many times before!)
Gov't of BC is passing back to work legislation for the drivers (probably as soon as Monday coming) and PMV (feds) is threatening to pull licenses shortly if more drivers (non-union esp) don't get back to work. The container flow is a trickle right now. Lots of grain running though. A mixed blessing I'm sure.
This post has be relocated from the incorrect thread:
The latest story in this on-going saga:
http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/bill-to-speed-grain-shipment-won-t-fix-current-backlogs-critics-1.1742822
Some of the end of story comments seem to have a lack of knowledge of railway operations, ya think
CN says they have spotted over 4K cars per week for loading - question ports ability to empty and keep cars moving.....
http://www.progressiverailroading.com/canadian_national/news/CN-delivers-4000-hopper-cars-to-Western-Canada-grain-elevators-calls-for-Coast-Guard-support--39853
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Thanks for the link Balt.
This late thaw on the Great Lakes is pushing more cars west to Pacific ports, and is no doubt raising volumes in the port elevators to be above what one would expect with a "normal" year on the Great Lakes. It might be an example of corporate historical perspective not extending back a sufficient number of years. A technology based historical perspective is an entirely different thing than one based on Mother Nature. When she wants to, she can throw a real wrench into the plans of those who are not sufficiently prepared.
I found the first two after story comments as of this time, 7:17 PM MDT, quite interesting. I could go in to the Halifax issue more if anyone is interested.
As of the 5pm PDT CBC news PMV said they were shipping 40% of previous container volume as of today. The truckers are well dug in and really annoyed about the 90 day cooling off the province is putting through. As well they continue to believe that the 14 point solution and any discussion around it is not taking their concerns about rate undercutting and trucker terminal wait times seriously. Along with PMV threats to pull trucker's licences up for renewal and insisting on truckers returning to work before serious negotiations begin it doesn't look good. They are getting more dug in as we speak.
I'm not surprised about the grain movement WB. Both CP and CN are running lots of grain in long trains, as I said previously, in just about any kind of grain car from almost anywhere you can imagine.
I'm not surprised about Thunder Bay. Most of Eastern Canada from what our eastern kids tell us has had a heck of a winter.
Mother Nature....best we remember in whose house we are guests, technology and all....
As of about 2½ hours ago the Canadian Government has tabled the promised legislation to deal with the grain shipping bottleneck. The article seems to have been written by someone lacking a clear understanding of the process, i.e. a "city slicker". I hope more clarity will be forthcoming.
Also, there is a change in the rules regarding how switching will be handled when there is only one railway serving an elevator. I should have been paying more attention to the volumes written about this subject here on the forum, but the change in this legislation is a change from 20 miles to 100.
Here is the article:
http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/ottawa-tables-legislation-aimed-at-clearing-grain-transportation-backlog-1.1747475
I will provide more info when I find it.
AgentKidAs of about 2½ hours ago the Canadian Government has tabled the promised legislation to deal with the grain shipping bottleneck. The article seems to have been written by someone lacking a clear understanding of the process, i.e. a "city slicker". I hope more clarity will be forthcoming.
Bruce,
So what else is new??
The legislation is often written by those who have less than complete knowledge of the real situation.....
The plot thickens....
lenzfamily AgentKidAs of about 2½ hours ago the Canadian Government has tabled the promised legislation to deal with the grain shipping bottleneck. The article seems to have been written by someone lacking a clear understanding of the process, i.e. a "city slicker". I hope more clarity will be forthcoming. Bruce, So what else is new?? The legislation is often written by those who have less than complete knowledge of the real situation..... The plot thickens.... Charlie Chilliwack, BC
Johnny
lenzfamilySo what else is new?? The legislation is often written by those who have less than complete knowledge of the real situation..... The plot thickens.... Charlie Chilliwack, BC
and the Thickens plot!
BaltACDand the Thickens plot!
I hate when that happens!!!
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