zugmann I'm just curious how someone that openly admits to having no experince would have the "knowledge and experience" to know what to do. He has every right to say what he thinks he would have done (hindsight is always 20/20) but to be so damned sure about it? Baffling.
I'm just curious how someone that openly admits to having no experince would have the "knowledge and experience" to know what to do. He has every right to say what he thinks he would have done (hindsight is always 20/20) but to be so damned sure about it? Baffling.
I am also baffled at how long this discussion has gone on, especially considering that no matter what the Engineer did in this situation the train still would have hit the bed and people. At 50-60 MPH a train cannot stop before hitting anything the Engineer can see clearly, even if the brakes are put in emergency.
But since putting oneself into another's place without any experience seems to be in vogue, I will give it a try. I am not a psychologist or psychiatrist, but my diagnosis is that Euclid has trouble letting things go. Having not gotten the answer he wanted (a straight "yes" or "no") to a question he cannot forget it or admit that he could be wrong, and feels compelled to ask the question again and again.
Speaking of proverbs and sayings, isn't there one about doing the same thing over & over again and expecting a different result?
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Euclid zugmann Throw all the quotes you want at me - the fact remains you have zero experience as an engineer. So to pretend like you would know exactly what to do is laughable. Maybe even a bit pitiful? Sometimes I think you are a paid shill by Kalmbach to bring in views for this site. But seeing how backwards some of this forum software is, I have my doubts. All I said is what I would have done in that situation. I do know that. If you would have done something different, fine. I am just saying what I would have done.
zugmann Throw all the quotes you want at me - the fact remains you have zero experience as an engineer. So to pretend like you would know exactly what to do is laughable. Maybe even a bit pitiful? Sometimes I think you are a paid shill by Kalmbach to bring in views for this site. But seeing how backwards some of this forum software is, I have my doubts.
Throw all the quotes you want at me - the fact remains you have zero experience as an engineer. So to pretend like you would know exactly what to do is laughable. Maybe even a bit pitiful?
Sometimes I think you are a paid shill by Kalmbach to bring in views for this site. But seeing how backwards some of this forum software is, I have my doubts.
All I said is what I would have done in that situation. I do know that. If you would have done something different, fine. I am just saying what I would have done.
It is possible to have an opinion about what one would do in a particular situation in life. However, there are situations in which without experience and relevant training, that opinion is about as worthless as mine (I never piloted a plane!) about what I would do as an airline pilot in an air emergency. The problem is one that has become horribly widespread in society and on here, where any John Doe's opinion is as good as an expert's.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Euclid I have never worked as an engineer. But I have enough knowledge and experience to know what I would have done........... ..........I have enough experience to know
..........I have enough experience to know
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
“Courage, self-reliance and decisiveness are the main traits that define a man.” ― Ogwo David Emenike
“Evil draws its power from indecision and concern for what other people think.” ― Pope Benedict XVI
EuclidI have never worked as an engineer. But I have enough knowledge and experience to know what I would have done.
Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.
Proverb 16:18.
In other words: I don't believe you for a second.
None of this logic will matter much when the jury sees the grieving family and the big corporation with lots of money.
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
n012944 Euclid For me, the observance of a large object across the track on a high bridge with perhaps a dozen people standing or moving near the bed, and possibly fouling the track, and certainly on the roadbed—all of that would have called for an emergency application. Just thought I would ask this again, even though you will not answer it. Please tell us your experiance in the operation of a train, along with train handling...
Euclid For me, the observance of a large object across the track on a high bridge with perhaps a dozen people standing or moving near the bed, and possibly fouling the track, and certainly on the roadbed—all of that would have called for an emergency application.
For me, the observance of a large object across the track on a high bridge with perhaps a dozen people standing or moving near the bed, and possibly fouling the track, and certainly on the roadbed—all of that would have called for an emergency application.
Just thought I would ask this again, even though you will not answer it. Please tell us your experiance in the operation of a train, along with train handling...
If you don’t think that what I say I would have done would have been the correct thing to do, well, so be it. It does no good to complain that I don’t have enough experience to say what I would have done. And incidentally, a lot of experienced people do the wrong thing sometimes.
I have enough experience to know that not every fully experienced engineer would agree on the proper course of action when facing an emergency situation like this. There is a certain risk to either course of action. It is far better to not go into emergency if events unfold in a way that shows it would not have been necessary. But the emergency function is there for a reason. It calls for decisiveness. A fret about whether it might derail the train seems to conflict with the call for decisiveness. When do you know for sure it won’t derail the train?
As this case is tried, I expect both opposing sides will have their experts full of experience to say each other is wrong. In the end, it will be up to the jury to decide which expert to believe. Of course nobody knows the outcome in advance, but, in hindsight, I’ll bet that CSX engineer wishes he had put that train into emergency before impact.
An "expensive model collector"
Norm48327 That, considering none of us were there at the time is an unfair question. You are asking us to speculate, which you seem to be good at and coming up with your reasons for doing such. Put yourself in the enginer's seat of that train if you have the qualifications to do so, then tell us from experience, not speculation, what you would have done in that situation.
Put yourself in the enginer's seat of that train if you have the qualifications to do so, then tell us from experience, not speculation, what you would have done in that situation.
Well, as Don Oltmannd said, “It really isn’t that complicated.” If I were the engineer, I would have made an emergency application at some point before reaching the bridge. At some point, I would have seen several people. I doubt that I would have mistaken them for buzzards as the CSX engineer says he did. Upon first seeing them, I would have begun making a strong effort to assess what I was seeing.
According to the timeline given in the news article, the engineer saw the people on or near the bridge and tracks when he was about a half mile away. That is 2640 feet, to decide what action to take. The engineer decided to blow the horn. I might have done the same thing before applying any braking, but if there was no immediate response of people clearing away from the site, I would have made an emergency application.
If people were visible, I am sure the bed would have been visible, and the bed was clearly fouling the track, and it had been in that position for the entire time from when the engineer could first see the people. I assume that the engineer would have seen people fouling the track as they panicked and sought to remove the bed before running to get themselves clear of the track. It appears that this activity was clearly underway by the time when the train was about 1000 feet away.
Euclid It is all right there on the video that is publically available. It clearly shows the hospital bed set crosswise and centered on the track. It shows the trestle deck including walkways along the track. I shows people moving around in various ways on the trestle deck, handling equipment and other activities. It shows the panic that set in when they realized a train was coming. The only thing I am not sure of is the exact number of people. So I am estimating a dozen people. This ABC video contains the most coverage of the actual incident: http://abcnews.go.com/2020/video/video-shows-train-involved-death-midnight-rider-crewmember-29804691
It is all right there on the video that is publically available. It clearly shows the hospital bed set crosswise and centered on the track. It shows the trestle deck including walkways along the track. I shows people moving around in various ways on the trestle deck, handling equipment and other activities. It shows the panic that set in when they realized a train was coming. The only thing I am not sure of is the exact number of people. So I am estimating a dozen people.
This ABC video contains the most coverage of the actual incident:
http://abcnews.go.com/2020/video/video-shows-train-involved-death-midnight-rider-crewmember-29804691
You knew the bed was there, and you are looking for it on the video. The engineer did not know it was there, and was also busy operating a train.
Norm
oltmannd Euclid What would you have if confronted with that situation? Pretty much what the engineer did. Blow the horn, stop train after it hit the bed and the bed hit the people still on the bridge walkway. This really isn't that complicated.
Euclid What would you have if confronted with that situation?
Pretty much what the engineer did. Blow the horn, stop train after it hit the bed and the bed hit the people still on the bridge walkway. This really isn't that complicated.
Yes whatever the response, it was not complicated at all.
EuclidWhat would you have if confronted with that situation?
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
VOLKER LANDWEHR In 33CFR117 of 2003 the Altahama River is still listed as navigable water.Quote: Sec. 117.351 Altamaha River. (a) The draws of all bridges, except the Seaboard System Railroad bridge, mile 59.4 at Doctortown, shall open on signal if at least 24 hours notice is given. (b) The draw of the Seaboard System Railroad bridge, mile 59.4 at Doctortown, shall open on signal if at least seven days notice is given. End of Quote (b) refers to the bridge in question. All others are abandoned according to a web search.Regards, Volker
In 33CFR117 of 2003 the Altahama River is still listed as navigable water.Quote:
Sec. 117.351 Altamaha River. (a) The draws of all bridges, except the Seaboard System Railroad bridge, mile 59.4 at Doctortown, shall open on signal if at least 24 hours notice is given. (b) The draw of the Seaboard System Railroad bridge, mile 59.4 at Doctortown, shall open on signal if at least seven days notice is given.
End of Quote
(b) refers to the bridge in question. All others are abandoned according to a web search.Regards, Volker
The above quoted 'navigable water' directive is only about 15 years behind the times as the 'Seaboard System Railroad' ceased to exist when CSX Transportation was formed 1987 to consumate the real meger of Chessie System and Seaboard that was effective at the top corporate levels on Nov. 1, 1980.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
blue streak 1Bascule ? Anyone know when it was deactivated as a draw ?
The bridge is a Strauss Heel Trunion bascule bridge. Differences to other types are shown here: www.nmra.org/sites/default/files/d6e3.pdf
Euclid http://abcnews.go.com/2020/video/video-shows-train-involved-death-midnight-rider-crewmember-29804691
From what I understand, with existing technology, slack action, variable braking on various cars, etc., dumping the air on a curve on a trestle has every possibility of derailment. To put the train into emergency under the specific condiions could possibly have been suicidal! That is the first argument the railroad's lawyers should use. The second is that it would not have saved the lives of anyone on the trestle. The train would not stop on a dime.
Euclid Sure you can always find cases where someone swerves to miss some object and causes a crash that is much worse than if they had hit the object. The significance of the hospital bed is that it is a large object. That much would have been obvious even if the engineer never recognized it as a bed. A large object straddling the track on a big bridge would be a major concern for any responsible engineer. Now surround that large object with a dozen or more people, and you have something that is clearly not just a case of some random debris landing in your path. I get a kick out of the CSX attorneys because they are trying to justify not dumping the air. Apparently they did not feel that the stated reason of nobody fouling the track was convincing enough. So they came up with two more reasons. Yet they fail to realize that two added reasons actually undermine their first reason. How does an engineer see a bed on the track, a dozen people milling around it on a narrow trestle deck with no easy escape, and conclude that nobody is in harm’s way?
Sure you can always find cases where someone swerves to miss some object and causes a crash that is much worse than if they had hit the object. The significance of the hospital bed is that it is a large object. That much would have been obvious even if the engineer never recognized it as a bed. A large object straddling the track on a big bridge would be a major concern for any responsible engineer. Now surround that large object with a dozen or more people, and you have something that is clearly not just a case of some random debris landing in your path.
I get a kick out of the CSX attorneys because they are trying to justify not dumping the air. Apparently they did not feel that the stated reason of nobody fouling the track was convincing enough. So they came up with two more reasons. Yet they fail to realize that two added reasons actually undermine their first reason.
How does an engineer see a bed on the track, a dozen people milling around it on a narrow trestle deck with no easy escape, and conclude that nobody is in harm’s way?
Given the limited time for the Engineer to react and the initial speed of the train, there is nothing he could have done. Even if he had put the train in emergency right away, hitting people or a large object at say 40 MPH is just a deadly as hitting them at 56 MPH. This should be obvious. And it would appear that he did take action to stop the train after the seriousness of the impact became clear.
And a sidenote: If crews were to put their trains into emergency immediately every time we see people on or near the track, have a near miss at a crossing or see debris (ex: trees) in front of us the rail system would grind to a standstill. That's how frequent trespassing is. Perhaps we should focus on making the hazards of the tracks crystal clear, as opposed to second-guessing, blaming and suing rail companies and people who have done nothing wrong.
Murphy Siding Euclid How does an engineer see a bed on the track, a dozen people milling around it on a narrow trestle deck with no easy escape, and conclude that nobody is in harm’s way? How would you know that was the setup? You weren't there.
Euclid How does an engineer see a bed on the track, a dozen people milling around it on a narrow trestle deck with no easy escape, and conclude that nobody is in harm’s way?
How would you know that was the setup? You weren't there.
BaltACDOne of those killed in the milk truck incident was from a neighboring community to me.
Small world department...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
tree68 BaltACD And I've heard nothing further on that angle. It's been a tough weekend here - Three employees of an ambulance company in the first incident, and a state trooper shot and killed last night...
BaltACD
And I've heard nothing further on that angle.
It's been a tough weekend here - Three employees of an ambulance company in the first incident, and a state trooper shot and killed last night...
One of those killed in the milk truck incident was from a neighboring community to me.
BaltACDWhich leads to the question - How experienced (or not) was the milk truck driver? It isn't answered in the linked article.
zugmann blue streak 1 Will not happen but it sure would be great if jury awarded CSX $100,000 for parents filing nuisance suit. Oh and also take it out of their lawyers hides as well. I can see the headline now: GRIEVING PARENTS FORCED TO PAY MULTI-BILLION DOLLAR COMPANY $100,000 AFTER DAUGHTER'S DEATH. ------ Railfans on the internet rejoice. ---- Yeah, doesn't exactly sound like a great PR move now, does it? No, I'm not saying the railroad or the crew should have to pay penny one, but swinging the pendulum to the other side is just as insane.
blue streak 1 Will not happen but it sure would be great if jury awarded CSX $100,000 for parents filing nuisance suit. Oh and also take it out of their lawyers hides as well.
Will not happen but it sure would be great if jury awarded CSX $100,000 for parents filing nuisance suit. Oh and also take it out of their lawyers hides as well.
I can see the headline now:
GRIEVING PARENTS FORCED TO PAY MULTI-BILLION DOLLAR COMPANY $100,000 AFTER DAUGHTER'S DEATH.
------
Railfans on the internet rejoice.
----
Yeah, doesn't exactly sound like a great PR move now, does it? No, I'm not saying the railroad or the crew should have to pay penny one, but swinging the pendulum to the other side is just as insane.
Yeah. I can imagine the lead story:"Heartless CSX collects another pound of flesh ($100K) from the grieving parents of daughter killed by train." Brilliant PR!
tree68 BaltACD This guy did. http://www.wwnytv.com/story/35825288/2-cars-hit-jackknifed-milk-tanker-on-new-york-highway-4-die Total losses - three employees of a small company and a doctor. It was never reported whether it was a carcass lying in the roadway or the deer was running across the Interstate...
This guy did.
http://www.wwnytv.com/story/35825288/2-cars-hit-jackknifed-milk-tanker-on-new-york-highway-4-die
Total losses - three employees of a small company and a doctor.
It was never reported whether it was a carcass lying in the roadway or the deer was running across the Interstate...
Which leads to the question - How experienced (or not) was the milk truck driver? It isn't answered in the linked article.
BaltACDDo you slam on the brakes of a 18 wheeler when you see a squirrel crossing in front of you? A hospital bed is just so much minor debris that crews see virtually every trip.
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