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Posted by SD70M-2Dude on Tuesday, July 11, 2017 8:11 PM

zugmann

I'm just curious how someone that openly admits to having no experince would have the "knowledge and experience" to know what to do.  He has every right to say what he thinks he would have done (hindsight is always 20/20) but to be so damned sure about it?  Baffling.

I am also baffled at how long this discussion has gone on, especially considering that no matter what the Engineer did in this situation the train still would have hit the bed and people.  At 50-60 MPH a train cannot stop before hitting anything the Engineer can see clearly, even if the brakes are put in emergency. 

But since putting oneself into another's place without any experience seems to be in vogue, I will give it a try.  I am not a psychologist or psychiatrist, but my diagnosis is that Euclid has trouble letting things go.  Having not gotten the answer he wanted (a straight "yes" or "no") to a question he cannot forget it or admit that he could be wrong, and feels compelled to ask the question again and again. 

Speaking of proverbs and sayings, isn't there one about doing the same thing over & over again and expecting a different result?

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Posted by zugmann on Tuesday, July 11, 2017 6:27 PM

I'm just curious how someone that openly admits to having no experince would have the "knowledge and experience" to know what to do.  He has every right to say what he thinks he would have done (hindsight is always 20/20) but to be so damned sure about it?  Baffling.

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

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Posted by schlimm on Tuesday, July 11, 2017 6:18 PM

Euclid

 

 
zugmann

Throw all the quotes you want at me - the fact remains you have zero experience as an engineer.  So to pretend like you would know exactly what to do is laughable.  Maybe even a bit pitiful? 

Sometimes I think you are a paid shill by Kalmbach to bring in views for this site.  But seeing how backwards some of this forum software is, I have my doubts.

 

 

 

 

All I said is what I would have done in that situation.  I do know that.  If you would have done something different, fine.  I am just saying what I would have done.   

 

It is possible to have an opinion about what one would do in a particular situation in life.  However, there are situations in which without experience and relevant training, that opinion is about as worthless as mine (I never piloted a plane!) about what I would do as an airline pilot in an air emergency. The problem is one that has become horribly widespread in society and on here, where any John Doe's opinion is as good as an expert's. 

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Posted by Euclid on Tuesday, July 11, 2017 6:00 PM

zugmann

Throw all the quotes you want at me - the fact remains you have zero experience as an engineer.  So to pretend like you would know exactly what to do is laughable.  Maybe even a bit pitiful? 

Sometimes I think you are a paid shill by Kalmbach to bring in views for this site.  But seeing how backwards some of this forum software is, I have my doubts.

 

 

All I said is what I would have done in that situation.  I do know that.  If you would have done something different, fine.  I am just saying what I would have done.   

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Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, July 11, 2017 5:57 PM

Euclid
I have never worked as an engineer.  But I have enough knowledge and experience to know what I would have done...........  

..........I have enough experience to know

Knowledge and experience in what?

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Posted by zugmann on Tuesday, July 11, 2017 5:05 PM

Throw all the quotes you want at me - the fact remains you have zero experience as an engineer.  So to pretend like you would know exactly what to do is laughable.  Maybe even a bit pitiful? 

Sometimes I think you are a paid shill by Kalmbach to bring in views for this site.  But seeing how backwards some of this forum software is, I have my doubts.

 

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

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Posted by Euclid on Tuesday, July 11, 2017 4:49 PM

“Courage, self-reliance and decisiveness are the main traits that define a man.”
Ogwo David Emenike

 

“Evil draws its power from indecision and concern for what other people think.”
Pope Benedict XVI
 

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Posted by zugmann on Tuesday, July 11, 2017 4:29 PM

Euclid
I have never worked as an engineer. But I have enough knowledge and experience to know what I would have done.

Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

Proverb 16:18.

 

In other words:  I don't believe you for a second.

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

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Posted by Paul of Covington on Tuesday, July 11, 2017 3:35 PM

   None of this logic will matter much when the jury sees the grieving family and the big corporation with lots of money.

_____________ 

  "A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner

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Posted by Euclid on Tuesday, July 11, 2017 3:18 PM

n012944
 
Euclid

For me, the observance of a large object across the track on a high bridge with perhaps a dozen people standing or moving near the bed, and possibly fouling the track, and certainly on the roadbed—all of that would have called for an emergency application. 

 

 

 

Just thought I would ask this again, even though you will not answer it.  Please tell us your experiance in the operation of a train, along with train handling...

I have never worked as an engineer.  But I have enough knowledge and experience to know what I would have done.  Norm asked be what I would have done, and I told him.  It does not change what the CSX engineer did. 

If you don’t think that what I say I would have done would have been the correct thing to do, well, so be it.  It does no good to complain that I don’t have enough experience to say what I would have done.  And incidentally, a lot of experienced people do the wrong thing sometimes. 

I have enough experience to know that not every fully experienced engineer would agree on the proper course of action when facing an emergency situation like this.  There is a certain risk to either course of action.  It is far better to not go into emergency if events unfold in a way that shows it would not have been necessary.  But the emergency function is there for a reason.  It calls for decisiveness.  A fret about whether it might derail the train seems to conflict with the call for decisiveness.  When do you know for sure it won’t derail the train?  

As this case is tried, I expect both opposing sides will have their experts full of experience to say each other is wrong.  In the end, it will be up to the jury to decide which expert to believe.  Of course nobody knows the outcome in advance, but, in hindsight, I’ll bet that CSX engineer wishes he had put that train into emergency before impact. 

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Posted by n012944 on Tuesday, July 11, 2017 2:01 PM

Euclid

For me, the observance of a large object across the track on a high bridge with perhaps a dozen people standing or moving near the bed, and possibly fouling the track, and certainly on the roadbed—all of that would have called for an emergency application. 

 

Just thought I would ask this again, even though you will not answer it.  Please tell us your experiance in the operation of a train, along with train handling...

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Posted by Euclid on Tuesday, July 11, 2017 1:52 PM

Norm48327
That, considering none of us were there at the time is an unfair question. You are asking us to speculate, which you seem to be good at and coming up with your reasons for doing such.
 

Put yourself in the enginer's seat of that train if you have the qualifications to do so, then tell us from experience, not speculation, what you would have done in that situation.

 

Well, as Don Oltmannd said, “It really isn’t that complicated.”  If I were the engineer, I would have made an emergency application at some point before reaching the bridge.  At some point, I would have seen several people.  I doubt that I would have mistaken them for buzzards as the CSX engineer says he did.  Upon first seeing them, I would have begun making a strong effort to assess what I was seeing.

According to the timeline given in the news article, the engineer saw the people on or near the bridge and tracks when he was about a half mile away.  That is 2640 feet, to decide what action to take.  The engineer decided to blow the horn.  I might have done the same thing before applying any braking, but if there was no immediate response of people clearing away from the site, I would have made an emergency application.  

If people were visible, I am sure the bed would have been visible, and the bed was clearly fouling the track, and it had been in that position for the entire time from when the engineer could first see the people.  I assume that the engineer would have seen people fouling the track as they panicked and sought to remove the bed before running to get themselves clear of the track.  It appears that this activity was clearly underway by the time when the train was about 1000 feet away. 

For me, the observance of a large object across the track on a high bridge with perhaps a dozen people standing or moving near the bed, and possibly fouling the track, and certainly on the roadbed—all of that would have called for an emergency application. 

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Posted by n012944 on Tuesday, July 11, 2017 1:04 PM

Euclid

 It is all right there on the video that is publically available.  It clearly shows the hospital bed set crosswise and centered on the track.  It shows the trestle deck including walkways along the track.  I shows people moving around in various ways on the trestle deck, handling equipment and other activities.  It shows the panic that set in when they realized a train was coming.  The only thing I am not sure of is the exact number of people.  So I am estimating a dozen people.

This ABC video contains the most coverage of the actual incident:

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/video/video-shows-train-involved-death-midnight-rider-crewmember-29804691

 

 

 

 

You knew the bed was there, and you are looking for it on the video.  The engineer did not know it was there, and was also busy operating a train.

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Posted by Norm48327 on Tuesday, July 11, 2017 12:14 PM
That, considering none of us were there at the time is an unfair question. You are asking us to speculate, which you seem to be good at and coming up with your reasons for doing such.
 

Put yourself in the enginer's seat of that train if you have the qualifications to do so, then tell us from experience, not speculation, what you would have done in that situation.

Norm


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Posted by Euclid on Tuesday, July 11, 2017 7:51 AM

oltmannd
 
Euclid
What would you have if confronted with that situation?

 

Pretty much what the engineer did.  Blow the horn, stop train after it hit the bed and the bed hit the people still on the bridge walkway.  This really isn't that complicated.

 

Yes whatever the response, it was not complicated at all. 

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Posted by oltmannd on Tuesday, July 11, 2017 7:18 AM

Euclid
What would you have if confronted with that situation?

Pretty much what the engineer did.  Blow the horn, stop train after it hit the bed and the bed hit the people still on the bridge walkway.  This really isn't that complicated.

-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/

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Posted by BaltACD on Tuesday, July 11, 2017 7:05 AM

VOLKER LANDWEHR

In 33CFR117 of 2003 the Altahama River is still listed as navigable water.
Quote:

Sec. 117.351  Altamaha River.

    (a) The draws of all bridges, except the Seaboard System Railroad 
bridge, mile 59.4 at Doctortown, shall open on signal if at least 24 
hours notice is given.
    (b) The draw of the Seaboard System Railroad bridge, mile 59.4 at 
Doctortown, shall open on signal if at least seven days notice is given.

End of Quote

(b) refers to the bridge in question. All others are abandoned according to a web search.
Regards, Volker

The above quoted 'navigable water' directive is only about 15 years behind the times as the 'Seaboard System Railroad' ceased to exist when CSX Transportation was formed 1987 to consumate the real meger of Chessie System and Seaboard that was effective at the top corporate levels on Nov. 1, 1980.

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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, July 11, 2017 4:55 AM

blue streak 1
Bascule ? Anyone know when it was deactivated as a draw ?

The bridge is a Strauss Heel Trunion bascule bridge. Differences to other types are shown here: www.nmra.org/sites/default/files/d6e3.pdf

In 33CFR117 of 2003 the Altahama River is still listed as navigable water.
Quote:

Sec. 117.351  Altamaha River.

    (a) The draws of all bridges, except the Seaboard System Railroad 
bridge, mile 59.4 at Doctortown, shall open on signal if at least 24 
hours notice is given.
    (b) The draw of the Seaboard System Railroad bridge, mile 59.4 at 
Doctortown, shall open on signal if at least seven days notice is given.

End of Quote

(b) refers to the bridge in question. All others are abandoned according to a web search.
Regards, Volker

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Tuesday, July 11, 2017 3:41 AM

Euclid

 
Appears that this bridge was once a draw bridge. Seems quite complicated. Bascule ?  Anyone know when it was deactivated as a draw ?
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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, July 11, 2017 2:38 AM

From what I understand, with existing technology, slack action, variable braking on various cars, etc., dumping the air on a curve on a trestle has every possibility of derailment.  To put the train into emergency under the specific condiions could possibly have been suicidal!  That is the first argument the railroad's lawyers should use.  The second is that it would not have saved the lives of anyone on the trestle.  The train would not stop on a dime.

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Posted by SD70M-2Dude on Tuesday, July 11, 2017 12:29 AM

Euclid

Sure you can always find cases where someone swerves to miss some object and causes a crash that is much worse than if they had hit the object.  The significance of the hospital bed is that it is a large object.  That much would have been obvious even if the engineer never recognized it as a bed.  A large object straddling the track on a big bridge would be a major concern for any responsible engineer.  Now surround that large object with a dozen or more people, and you have something that is clearly not just a case of some random debris landing in your path.

I get a kick out of the CSX attorneys because they are trying to justify not dumping the air.  Apparently they did not feel that the stated reason of nobody fouling the track was convincing enough.  So they came up with two more reasons.  Yet they fail to realize that two added reasons actually undermine their first reason. 

How does an engineer see a bed on the track, a dozen people milling around it on a narrow trestle deck with no easy escape, and conclude that nobody is in harm’s way? 

Given the limited time for the Engineer to react and the initial speed of the train, there is nothing he could have done.  Even if he had put the train in emergency right away, hitting people or a large object at say 40 MPH is just a deadly as hitting them at 56 MPH.  This should be obvious.  And it would appear that he did take action to stop the train after the seriousness of the impact became clear.

And a sidenote:  If crews were to put their trains into emergency immediately every time we see people on or near the track, have a near miss at a crossing or see debris (ex: trees) in front of us the rail system would grind to a standstill.  That's how frequent trespassing is.  Perhaps we should focus on making the hazards of the tracks crystal clear, as opposed to second-guessing, blaming and suing rail companies and people who have done nothing wrong. 

Greetings from Alberta

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Posted by Euclid on Monday, July 10, 2017 10:34 PM

Murphy Siding
 
Euclid

How does an engineer see a bed on the track, a dozen people milling around it on a narrow trestle deck with no easy escape, and conclude that nobody is in harm’s way? 

 

 

 

How would you know that was the setup?  You weren't there.

 

 

It is all right there on the video that is publically available.  It clearly shows the hospital bed set crosswise and centered on the track.  It shows the trestle deck including walkways along the track.  I shows people moving around in various ways on the trestle deck, handling equipment and other activities.  It shows the panic that set in when they realized a train was coming.  The only thing I am not sure of is the exact number of people.  So I am estimating a dozen people.

This ABC video contains the most coverage of the actual incident:

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/video/video-shows-train-involved-death-midnight-rider-crewmember-29804691

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Posted by tree68 on Monday, July 10, 2017 10:16 PM

BaltACD
One of those killed in the milk truck incident was from a neighboring community to me.

Small world department...

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Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, July 10, 2017 10:07 PM

Euclid

How does an engineer see a bed on the track, a dozen people milling around it on a narrow trestle deck with no easy escape, and conclude that nobody is in harm’s way? 

 

How would you know that was the setup?  You weren't there.

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Posted by BaltACD on Monday, July 10, 2017 9:23 PM

tree68
BaltACD

And I've heard nothing further on that angle.  

It's been a tough weekend here - Three employees of an ambulance company in the first incident, and a state trooper shot and killed last night...

One of those killed in the milk truck incident was from a neighboring community to me.

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Posted by tree68 on Monday, July 10, 2017 9:13 PM

BaltACD
Which leads to the question - How experienced (or not) was the milk truck driver?  It isn't answered in the linked article.

And I've heard nothing further on that angle.  

It's been a tough weekend here - Three employees of an ambulance company in the first incident, and a state trooper shot and killed last night...

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Posted by schlimm on Monday, July 10, 2017 8:38 PM

zugmann

 

 
blue streak 1

Will not happen but it sure would be great if jury awarded CSX $100,000 for parents filing nuisance suit.  Oh and also take it out of their lawyers hides as well.

 

 

 

I can see the headline now:

 

GRIEVING PARENTS FORCED TO PAY MULTI-BILLION DOLLAR COMPANY $100,000 AFTER DAUGHTER'S DEATH.

------

Railfans on the internet rejoice.

----

 

Yeah, doesn't exactly sound like a great PR move now, does it?  No, I'm not saying the railroad or the crew should have to pay penny one, but swinging the pendulum to the other side is just as insane.

 

Yeah.  I can imagine the lead story:

"Heartless CSX collects another pound of flesh ($100K) from the grieving parents of daughter killed by train."   Brilliant PR!

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Posted by Euclid on Monday, July 10, 2017 8:21 PM

Sure you can always find cases where someone swerves to miss some object and causes a crash that is much worse than if they had hit the object.  The significance of the hospital bed is that it is a large object.  That much would have been obvious even if the engineer never recognized it as a bed.  A large object straddling the track on a big bridge would be a major concern for any responsible engineer.  Now surround that large object with a dozen or more people, and you have something that is clearly not just a case of some random debris landing in your path.

I get a kick out of the CSX attorneys because they are trying to justify not dumping the air.  Apparently they did not feel that the stated reason of nobody fouling the track was convincing enough.  So they came up with two more reasons.  Yet they fail to realize that two added reasons actually undermine their first reason. 

How does an engineer see a bed on the track, a dozen people milling around it on a narrow trestle deck with no easy escape, and conclude that nobody is in harm’s way? 

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Posted by BaltACD on Monday, July 10, 2017 8:02 PM

tree68
BaltACD

This guy did.  

http://www.wwnytv.com/story/35825288/2-cars-hit-jackknifed-milk-tanker-on-new-york-highway-4-die

Total losses - three employees of a small company and a doctor.  

It was never reported whether it was a carcass lying in the roadway or the deer was running across the Interstate...

Which leads to the question - How experienced (or not) was the milk truck driver?  It isn't answered in the linked article.

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Posted by tree68 on Monday, July 10, 2017 5:56 PM

BaltACD
Do you slam on the brakes of a 18 wheeler when you see a squirrel crossing in front of you?  A hospital bed is just so much minor debris that crews see virtually every trip.

This guy did.  

http://www.wwnytv.com/story/35825288/2-cars-hit-jackknifed-milk-tanker-on-new-york-highway-4-die

Total losses - three employees of a small company and a doctor.  

It was never reported whether it was a carcass lying in the roadway or the deer was running across the Interstate...

LarryWhistling
Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) 
Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you
My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date
Come ride the rails with me!
There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...

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