Oil Train Derailment and Fire near Casselton, ND

[DMM60]

This has occurred in just the last hour so few details are known.  http://www.valleynewslive.com/story/24329396/train-derailment-west-of-casselton

[tree68]

Flyover country.  If it weren't for the movie, most people would have never heard of Fargo.

Unless the enviro or anti-DOT111 folks go after it, this won't last one news cycle, other than locally and in the rail press.

[NorthWest]

Please, keep us updated!

[jclass]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/12/30/us-northdakota-collision-idUSBRE9BT0OV20131230 Couldn't get it to link.

[BroadwayLion]

Two trains were involved. There was a derailment and then another train ran into it, possibly on an adjacent track. Casselton was the place, but it was out of town and so there were no city injuries.

Here is from the Fargo Forum

It is out of the radio news cycle already.

ROAR

[NorthWest]

Newswire with more details.

http://trn.trains.com/en/Railroad%20News/News%20Wire/2013/12/BNSF%20oil%20train%20derails%20explodes%20in%20North%20Dakota.aspx

jclass article activated: http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/12/30/us-northdakota-collision-idUSBRE9BT0OV20131230

[rdamon]

Local info and photos ...

http://www.inforum.com/

[Firelock76]

WHAT is going on?  I didn't think crude oil would go up like that.

Looked like a mini-Hiroshima.

[BaltACD]

http://news.yahoo.com/two-trains-collide-north-dakota-one-them-carrying-215524489--finance.html

[henry6]

I trust the railroads...its their business, their property, their people.  Its the oil companies I don't trust.

[NorthWest]

Reports of head end locomotives being involved in fireball-I think that is the DPU in the pics-any word on the crews? They seem to be ignored in news reports! Hope they are okay!

[narig01]

Anybody remember Aliceville, Alabama?
Middle of nowhere, no one was hurt, just a mess to cleanup.
Or the thread.

http://cs.trains.com/trn/f/111/t/222070.aspx?sort=ASC&pi332=1

Rgds IGN

[Pathfinder]

NorthWest

Reports of head end locomotives being involved in fireball-I think that is the DPU in the pics-any word on the crews? They seem to be ignored in news reports! Hope they are okay!

According to Business Insider, no injuries to crew or anyone else has been reported.  Good news if it stays that way.

[schlimm]

tree68

Flyover country.  If it weren't for the movie, most people would have never heard of Fargo.

Unless the enviro or anti-DOT111 folks go after it, this won't last one news cycle, other than locally and in the rail press.

Contrast the above with this quote from the Yahoo article:

"The Association of American Railroads recently proposed costly fixes to older tank cars that do not meet its latest standards but continue to carry hazardous fuels such as oil."

Last anyone heard, the AAR is neither an "enviro" group nor  an "anti-DOT111" group" 

[grinnell]

Video of the fire and smoke made the NBC "Nightly news" on the west coast.

Grinnell

[tree68]

schlimm

Last anyone heard, the AAR is neither an "enviro" group nor  an "anti-DOT111" group" 

As Narig pointed out about Aliceville, and someone else mentioned about other coverage (or lack thereof), unless someone (the enviros or the anti-DOT111 folks, f'rinstance)  uses this as a rallying point, it'll be out of the news within a day or so.

The reference to AAR in the story merely points out that they have taken issue with the cars - which we knew.  It's background information, and we should be glad that someone did some research for their story.

Except for local coverage (which will continue for the duration), this will be a non-story for most of the nation before the ball drops in Times Square.

[schlimm]

tree68

Except for local coverage (which will continue for the duration), this will be a non-story for most of the nation before the ball drops in Times Square.

And why should you be glad of that?  Do you think the AAR is anti DOT-111 tankcars?   They certainly regard their use for hauling certain flammables (such as the bakken crude) as dangerous unless modified.  

[Boyd]

KSTP 5 in the Twin Cities reported one engineer has 2nd degree burns. Here in the Twin Cities we had a near 50 degree temp drop from Saturday afternoon to Sunday late morning. Fargo gets a bit colder than we do. One northern Mn town recorded a -40f temp last night not including wind chill. I'd suspect a broken rail from the extreme cold.

[466lex]

Lac Megantic

Aliceville

Casselton

...

A clear pattern has emerged:

Consider the words of a respected analyst, shedding light on a notable techn-managerial failure:

 

Report of the PRESIDENTIAL COMMISSION on the Space Shuttle Challenger Accident Volume 2:

 Appendix F - Personal Observations on Reliability of Shuttle

 by R. P. Feynman

 Conclusions 

If a reasonable launch schedule is to be maintained, engineering often cannot be done fast enough to keep up with the expectations of originally conservative certification criteria designed to guarantee a very safe vehicle. In these situations, subtly, and often with apparently logical arguments, the criteria are altered so that flights may still be certified in time. They therefore fly in a relatively unsafe condition, with a chance of failure of the order of a percent (it is difficult to be more accurate).

Official management, on the other hand, claims to believe the probability of failure is a thousand times less. One reason for this may be an attempt to assure the government of NASA perfection and success in order to ensure the supply of funds. The other may be that they sincerely believed it to be true, demonstrating an almost incredible lack of communication between themselves and their working engineers.

 In any event this has had very unfortunate consequences, the most serious of which is to encourage ordinary citizens to fly in such a dangerous machine, as if it had attained the safety of an ordinary airliner. The astronauts, like test pilots, should know their risks, and we honor them for their courage. Who can doubt that McAuliffe was equally a person of great courage, who was closer to an awareness of the true risk than NASA management would have us believe?

 [F5] Let us make recommendations to ensure that NASA officials deal in a world of reality in understanding technological weaknesses and imperfections well enough to be actively trying to eliminate them. They must live in reality in comparing the costs and utility of the Shuttle to other methods of entering space. And they must be realistic in making contracts, in estimating costs, and the difficulty of the projects. Only realistic flight schedules should be proposed, schedules that have a reasonable chance of being met. If in this way the government would not support them, then so be it. NASA owes it to the citizens from whom it asks support to be frank, honest, and informative, so that these citizens can make the wisest decisions for the use of their limited resources.

For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled.

                                                                                        

 

[dakotafred]

Whatever else you think about oil on the rails, you gotta admit it makes for one heck of a fireball!

Tree68 is whistling in the wind if he thinks the anti-fossil fuel crowd won't be all over this one. It's better than even the horrific Lac Megantic, because it happened at home. They jump up and down when a pipeline in N.D. leaks a few hundred gallons; what do you think they'll do with Casselton?

One non-hysterical way to look at the big-headline oil-by-rail accidents we have seen so far:

Lac Megantic was apparently caused by an inexcusably careless and stupid operating practice: leaving a potential bomb parked unattended, on a grade, with live locomotives. Presumably, the practice outlawed, this kind of accident won't happen again.

Casselton happened because of a mechanical failure about which -- Washington take note -- Positive Train Control would have done nothing. Mechanical failure is a transportation fact of life with which we will have to live -- in the air, on water, highway and rail -- even after all operation has been automated.

We have said that tank cars will be made more secure -- not perfectly secure -- in the future. The question will be whether we are grownup enough to live with another of life's many remote hazards in the meantime.  

 

[Dakguy201]

I happened to be flipping TV channels when the network talk shows started this morning.  At least two of them led with video of the North Dakota mini-mushroom clouds.   Just as Chatsworth caused the government to demand the adoption of a technology only partially invented on an improbable schedule, these wrecks have a great potential for causing a quick and dirty "solution" by legislative fiat.

[Norm48327]

I'm going to take a different approach. I don't see a problem with oil by rail, but specifically,  a problem that needs to be resolved with the Bakken crude before shipment. The highly volatile compounds are the guilty culprit and need to be removed prior to shipping. That's going to require some processing to remove those compounds and provide different (safer) transport. The shippers can't keep handing the railroads crude that is bound to explode with the slightest provocation.

[henry6]

First we don't know what caused this accident yet..so let's wait on that call.  But secondly, there was talk that the gas/oil companies have not been up front about the volatility of the Bakken oil, have often over filled the tank cars, and have mixed other volatile liquids into the shipments: hey, it's not their railroads.  Oil and gas and gasoline have been safely shipped by rail (and highway) for well over a 100 years with very few problems.  Railroads today know they cannot make money on slow and bad order tracks or when the lines are closed due to derailments.   So, we must look more closely at the energy industry for causes and solutions to the likes of Lac Magentac and Fargo.

[wjstix]

It was in this morning's news on National Public Radio, so appears to still be "in the news".

BTW I believe they said the overnight low there was -30F, current temp (9:20 a.m.) is -18F.

[schlimm]

Norm48327

I'm going to take a different approach. I don't see a problem with oil by rail, but specifically,  a problem that needs to be resolved with the Bakken crude before shipment. The highly volatile compounds are the guilty culprit and need to be removed prior to shipping. That's going to require some processing to remove those compounds and provide different (safer) transport. The shippers can't keep handing the railroads crude that is bound to explode with the slightest provocation.

Norm, i think you've stated explicitly the key issue here.  It is not that the DOT-111 tank cars are unsafe per se, but that the problem can occur when the content is the more volatile Bakken.  This crude was unknown when the cars were designed .  Shipments of Bakken have soared in the last few years. Derailments with this cargo have and will continue to occur.  The consequences are only bad or even disastrous when the cargo includes Bakken crude.  Lac Magentic would have been a non-event if the cars had been carrying some less volatile contents.

Solutions could include the shippers (oil companies) buying and using more-suitable cars, modifying the 111's, your solution and/or pipelines.  All of the above cost the railroads nothing.  The third, however, would raise the cost of the crude, possibly greatly.  The pipeline may or may not happen.  But clearly something needs to be and will be done to remedy the problem.   Denial of the problems isn't going to cut it anymore. 

[henry6]

I just heard that the oil train struck some derailed cars of another train on the adjacent track.  However, there remains reports of Bakken oil being more volatile and flammable than regular oil and that the oil companies are shipping anyway.  Fire companies have been contacted along the routes about the flammability of the oil should there be a derailment.   As I said earlier, gasoline, jet fuel, etc., have all been carried by rail for over one hundred years.  Safely.  Where I will change my message is that knowing how volatile this new Bakken oil is, railroads will have to step up their vigil and rules in moving it, even requiring more help from the oil companies than just pamphlets to the nearby firehouses.  

[zugmann]

dakotafred

Tree68 is whistling in the wind if he thinks the anti-fossil fuel crowd won't be all over this one. It's better than even the horrific Lac Megantic, because it happened at home. They jump up and down when a pipeline in N.D. leaks a few hundred gallons; what do you think they'll do with Casselton?

Special interest crowds will be all over anything that fits their agendas.  That's nothing new.  But when was the last time Lac Magantic was even mentioned on any national news that the general public actually pays attention to? 

This will be long forgotten by 99.9999% of the population by tomorrow.

[henry6]

This will reignite the whole of safety of rail transportation.  But the oil and gas industry has to step up and take some of the blame wanting cheap rail rates to take this volatile unrefined product to distant refineries, too.  The railroads have to step up to the megaphones and let people know that the energy companies have some fault on their shoulders by over filling the cars and not coming clean about the flammability  of the products, more volatile than normal crude.  Railroad did at first accuse the industry of mixing other ingredients to the crude before the industry let the increased dangers natural to Bakken crude.  The railroads have to start defending themselves in public and in volume and frequency and not let the oil industry slough it off on railroads nor allow the anti fossil fuel and pro highway and pro pipeline groups get hold of it.  

[BroadwayLion]

NPR has an agenda, and I would not really call their stuff up to date.

ROAR

[tree68]

dakotafred

Tree68 is whistling in the wind if he thinks the anti-fossil fuel crowd won't be all over this one.

My point exactly.  If it weren't for them, it would just be another incident that would rapidly fade into ancient history.