Hello all! I've got a question possibly someone can answer. Yesterday I saw an Amtrak train stopped in the station. The last car in the consist had a little blue light on the level of the coupler. It was flashing on and off at about half-second intervals. At the same time someone I'll assume was an Amtrak car tonk was observing the light and speaking to some one on a walkie-talkie. After a few minutes the light went out and the train continued on its way.
I've never seen this before. Anyone know what it's about?
A blue light or flag is generally used to protect carmen, and occasionally other employees, when working on a train or cut of cars. It indicates the cars are not to be coupled to or moved. They are only to be removed by the person who applied them, once all the workers are out from under or between cars. Most likely this is what you saw. Similar or equivalent protection was probably in place at the locomotive end.
John
Thanks for the fast response CX, but I dont think this was the case. I've seen cars blue flagged and it's pretty obvious when it's done. The flashing blue light was small, and you wouldn't have seen it unless you were within 20 or so feet of it like I was. It seems to me it was something other than a safety signal. Oh, I should have said this was in daylight, around 11:00 AM. On the other hand you could be right, but it seemed odd to me it was flashing and not burning steadily.
Thanks again, though!
Same as blue flag, I believe.
Norm
A blue light, be it steady or flashing, big or small is the same as a blue flag.
What was most likely going on was a connection between cars was being checked, or a minor “running repair” was in action.
Our car men here at the PTRA have lanterns with flashing blue lights in them for night time use, and they will use them in the day time if no actual flag is available. The lantern itself is also blue, so there is no mistaking what it is and what it means.
I know of no operating department employee who will move or couple into any equipment displaying any flashing blue light, or anything that could be taken for a blue flag protection.
The fact that there was a employee at the rear observing would suggest he placed the “flag” and was awaiting permission to remove it.
Blue flags and their equivalent can only be placed and removed by members of the same craft…at the PTRA, we carry it a little further, the employee who puts the protection in place has to be the employee to remove it unless that employee gives written permission to another employee of the same craft to do so.
Violation of blue flag protection is one of our “9 deadly sins” here…you screw the pooch on that, you find a new career.
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Firelock76 The flashing blue light was small, and you wouldn't have seen it unless you were within 20 or so feet of it like I was. It seems to me it was something other than a safety signal. Oh, I should have said this was in daylight, around 11:00 AM. On the other hand you could be right, but it seemed odd to me it was flashing and not burning steadily. Thanks again, though!
The flashing blue light was small, and you wouldn't have seen it unless you were within 20 or so feet of it like I was. It seems to me it was something other than a safety signal. Oh, I should have said this was in daylight, around 11:00 AM. On the other hand you could be right, but it seemed odd to me it was flashing and not burning steadily.
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Thanks all for your knowledge and insights! However, I think Zardoz might have nailed it!
Blue flags (lights) are the railroad equivalent or version of lock-out/ tag-out procedures that are used for safe-guarding industrial equipment from being energized (electrical) or operated (mechanical), etc. while it is being worked on. For example, this link is to a 43-page ALCOA Lock-Out/ Tag-Out Verification program document (approx. 383 KB electronic file size in 'PDF" format) - the "Blue Flag and Railroad Derailer Procedures" are on page 23:
https://alcoa.fdnet.com/EHS/CEH&S/Warrick/Lockout%20Tagout%20Verification%20Program.pdf
Though I haven't researched it, I would not be surprised to learn that the railroad's blue flag procedures and rules preceded and were the basis for the similar modern industrial formal lock-out/ tag-out procedures. Blue flags have been in use for at least many decades if not over a century, whereas the lock-out tag-out process seems to have become more common around the 1970's when OSHA came on the scene. Thinking about it a little more, the aircraft industry must have something similar (although only 1 'unit' or 'car' is involved, not many stretching for thousands of feet), but I'll let someone else who is more knowledgeable comment on that aspect.
- Paul North.
Links to the same photo (not mine) of an Amtrak blue light at 30th Street Station, Philadelphia:
http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/32016-switching-out-cars/ (about 1/3 of the way down the page)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/29226259@N02/4510761195/
That was an interesting photo link Paul, however that's not what I saw. The blue light was ON the passenger car. It looked like a permanent part of the unit, mounted on the frame just to the left of the coupler.
However, it could very well have the same meaning as the other blue lights. I should say the car tonk didn't mount it on the car, it was in place and flashing when the train stopped and before the carman showed up, hence my curiousity.
I do have an old kerosene railroad lantern with a blue globe as part of the lantern collection. Got lucky with that one, right place, right time.
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Firelock76However, it could very well have the same meaning as the other blue lights.
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A blue light and/or flag attached to a car, locomotive, or train at either or both ends or attached to or in or near the gauge of the track has always been deemed a signal to warn that somebody is working on, in, our under the car, locomotive, or train beyond that blue signal and that signal cannot be removed except by the employee placing said signal and that the equipment, car, locomotive, or train cannot be coupled to or moved until the signal is properly and legally removed. This is the rule, this is the law, this is the way it has been in railroading for over a hundred years. So, why fight, argue, or try to dismiss as anything else? And if you are an engineer you know better than to move the signal or move against it. If you are not an engineer, then just watch.
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Oh, I believe ALL of you, don't get me wrong! The only other time I've seen any blue signals of any kind around an Amtrak consist was during daylight hours when some blue flags (I'm calling them "flags" for lack of a better term, they were actually blue steel placards) were prominently displayed around a car being serviced.
I'm well aware of what blue signals mean, blue flags by day, blue lights by night. What had me going was the particular situation of this blue light. I was wondering if it was an indication of some system failure on the car itself, heating, electrical, communications, brake system, what have you.
Again, I thank you all for your inputs!
We have a phrase for that here on the Port, it’s called “taking the track home in your pocket”.
In my 17 years, it has happened here once that I know of, and the carman only got a few miles away from the yard on his way home before his lead man got him on his cell phone.
Needless to say, he beat feet back to work pretty quick, and took his flag off the locomotive.
Our car men have a photo ID with their picture on it, and a big blue stripe all around it, they hang it on the reverser or the independent brake handle in the lead locomotive, so anyone who gets in the cab knows the train is blue flagged, this in addition to the actual track flags and hangers on the locomotive.
He removed everything else, and simply forgot his ID, which did exactly what it was supposed to do, preventing the crew from moving the train.
He didn’t get any time off for it, management figured the ribbing he would get along with the butt chewing would be enough, and we still, years later, give him a hard time about it.
Firelock76 [snipped - PDN] Yesterday I saw an Amtrak train stopped in the station. The last car in the consist had a little blue light on the level of the coupler. It was flashing on and off at about half-second intervals. . . .
Wonder if it could have been a new 'train-lined' blue light system, similar to the little car door or brake pressure status lights that are further up on the carbody ? See the discussion in this thread on "Passenger Car Door Indicator Lights", especially the comment about he MARC cars by "HokieNav" near the bottom of Page 1: http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=76622
For example, see this image (not mine) and brochure (2 pgs., approx. 1,012 KB file size):
http://www.i2systems.com/uploads/images/category-transit-indicator-led.jpg
http://www.i2systems.com/uploads/spec_sheets/i2Systems_Transit_T4360_A.pdf
P.S. - See also the several photos and the animated 'gif' at about the middle of this blog post titled "Stop (and go) - Part 2" on the Portland, Oregon TriMet MAX Light Rail Vehicles:
http://maxfaqs.wordpress.com/2010/11/27/stop-and-go-part-2/#comments
- PDN.
OK Paul, in answer to your questions:
The train was one of the Northeast Regionals. The station was the Staples Mill Road station here in Richmond (Henrico) Virginia. The equipment was one of the, uh, "AmCan" passenger cars.
I checked those posts you gave, and NO, the light was NOT way up on the carbody by the door. If you can imagine a passenger car having a bumper, the light was where the bumper would have been and on the same level as the coupler.
I should add (probably should have said so sooner) that while the train was pulling into the station the two red lights on the front of the engine, right above where the headlights are, were illuminated as well. I've seen those red engine lights lit on trains parked at Staples Mill station. This was the first time I've seen them lit on an approaching train, usually they don't light 'em up until the trains tied down. So maybe there was a problem, and the blue light I saw was a "safety" after all. I've just never seen one that looked like it was permanently built into the car itself.
I find it interesting that the red lights on the front of the engine were lit. I have understood that these lights are used only when the engine is running backwards, and then indicate that this is the rear of the train.
Johnny
I would think having a "train-lined" blue light would violate the safety intent of blue light rules, since the person setting or removing blue light protection would not be the workman asking for protection.
In Amtrak operations I've listened to, even where blue flag/light rules are in effect, the carmen often ask for "three-point" protection before going between cars. In the NORAC description this involves setting brakes, putting the reverser in neutral or shutoff position depending on equipment, and opening the field switch (on diesels, this prevents the alternator from generating electricity for the motors). "Three-point" is required where no blue flag or lights are available.
rcdrye In Amtrak operations I've listened to, even where blue flag/light rules are in effect, the carmen often ask for "three-point" protection before going between cars. In the NORAC description this involves setting brakes, putting the reverser in neutral or shutoff position depending on equipment, and opening the field switch (on diesels, this prevents the alternator from generating electricity for the motors). "Three-point" is required where no blue flag or lights are available.
TrainManTy It's a commonly confused term (sometimes by railroaders) but the term you're looking for is "three-step" protection. Three-point refers to the three points of contact that are required while riding the outside of moving equipment.
Now that you mention it I have heard it both ways. In each case the crew members responding to the request used the same term as the employee requesting it.
Deggesty I find it interesting that the red lights on the front of the engine were lit. I have understood that these lights are used only when the engine is running backwards, and then indicate that this is the rear of the train.
Dang! Did I forget to turn them off?
"Three step" is sometimes called three point by some individuals. What's important is the context and that it is, in fact, put in place and properly observed.
Some railroads use "red zone," "set and centered," or even "going in between" to accomplish the same effect.
I think most places require the worker requesting "three step" take it down as well (much like a blue flag, only the person calling for "three step" can cancel same).
In practice, I've heard of railroads where the practice is that if the same person who requested "three step" subsequently calls for a move, that's considered a request to drop "three step" and an OK to make the move. It's one of those things that needs to be either part of that road's culture, or if working with someone not used to the practice a job briefing is needed.
We still haven't heard a definitive answer as to exactly what the little blue light in question actually represents.
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When going in-between cars, where a locomotive is attached, for any reason, red zone or three step protection is required, regardless of blue flag protection.
Red zone or three step protection may only be requested verbally via radio, and must be acknowledged via radio by the engineer.
Release of the red zone or three step protections can only be obtained via radio.
The request and release, and the engineer’s response must include a unique identifier, such as the railroads name or initials, a train symbol or a job number.
Only the person requesting red zone or three step may release the red zone or three step protection.
No one can request red zone or three step for any other person, each individual is required to request it for themselves, and only that person may release their own red zone or three step protection.
When such protection is requested, the engineer must center the reverser, apply the independent brake, (locomotive brake) and place the generator field switch in the off position, to prevent movement of the train.
The term three point and three step is used mostly on Norac railroads, Red Zone on GCOR railroads, the procedures each railroad requires will be found in their respective time tables in the safety rules section.
The three points or three steps are of course the steps the engineer is required to follow before he or she can verbally acknowledge the request for protection.
The engineer may not disturb any of the three steps taken until the verbal release is given from all employees who requested such protection.
On my carrier, entering the red zone, (violating the plane of the car body) without red zone protection is an automatic 90 suspension for the ground person, and moving the train without a verbal release is an automatic 90 days for the engineer.
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