I don't think pertinent facts have been presented or released but rather statement which could be understood by the media.. Understood, that is, but not fully comprehended in relation to the whole picture of the event. Catch phrases, exciting images, leading and misleading because the media wants to be able to tell their audience something whether it is true or not, matters or not, or even makes sense or not, but "look at me on TV!" or "read my by line in the paper", "see I'm on the job giving it to you." Of course the editors and publishers know as little as the reporters but have deadlines to meet and bottom lines to inflate.
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The news media has speculated on track condition, push-pull operation, lack of equipment inspection, etc. as causes of this disaster. This is pure bunk resulting from their general ignorance of railroading.
The pertinent facts that have been released so far based on the event recorders are:
Prior to the accident the train had been going 82mph where track speed was 70mph.
6 sec before the derailment brakeline air pressure went to 0 indicating to me an emergency brake application.
5 sec before the derailment the throttle was shut off.
Unless further investigation discloses an equipment failure, I expect the engineer will be found to be at fault for improper operation of the train resulting in this disaster. For his sake I hope it will be found that he was impaired as a result of some medical condition. However I am afraid it is more likely he was distracted because of cell phone usage or texting as was the cause of the accident in the Chatsworth, CA accident a year or so ago. It is time to require in-cab video cameras to prevent engineers from engaging in such activity. I understand in-cab video has been strongly opposed by the railroad labor unions but they must now understand this is the only effective way to prevent such conduct and prove that engineers properly operate their trains.
Mark
MerrilyWeRollAlong Unfortunately, I think the engineer dozed off somewhere between the last stop at Tarrytown (14 miles north) and about 10 seconds before the train entered the 30mph curve. Well since the line does not have a PTC or ACSES system, this may be the wake up call to have it installed as soon as possible.
Unfortunately, I think the engineer dozed off somewhere between the last stop at Tarrytown (14 miles north) and about 10 seconds before the train entered the 30mph curve. Well since the line does not have a PTC or ACSES system, this may be the wake up call to have it installed as soon as possible.
Possible...but too early to say that for sure. Many other things could have happened singly or in concert or by chance to be the cause or causes....
I've been supportive of the engineer. Up to now. I am creeping backwards because there has to be extraordinary and ultra unusual circumstances or conditions before hand for the engineer not to be at fault or partially at fault....
Just a note to help with definitions. Trainline is an electrical line that connects rail cars and locomotives for control, power and hotel loads. The hose that goes thru the length of the train for brake charging and application is the "brakepipe". Trains Magazine shows "Train Line" for the brake system in its glossary. That definition does not appear in GCOR or USOR.
BaltACD No train brake application is going to slow a train from 82 MPH to 30 MPH in 6 seconds - from the engineers seat once he REALIZED where he was - the brakes didn't work as he was 12 MPH over line speed to start with andh no chance of slowing the train to a proper speed to safely traverse the curve. Unless there extenuating issues with the operation and response of the locomotive to control inputs, this appears to be a case of a lack of situational awareness. Why will be the big question!
No train brake application is going to slow a train from 82 MPH to 30 MPH in 6 seconds - from the engineers seat once he REALIZED where he was - the brakes didn't work as he was 12 MPH over line speed to start with andh no chance of slowing the train to a proper speed to safely traverse the curve.
Unless there extenuating issues with the operation and response of the locomotive to control inputs, this appears to be a case of a lack of situational awareness. Why will be the big question!
Pretty much my conclusion as well. Heck, at 30 MPH, it's a good 5-6 seconds before I really start to see any difference at all in our speed, so I know I probably can't even drop from 30 to 10 in that period under normal circumstances.
The trainline at zero is indicative of either an emergency application or the trainline being parted. It usually takes several hour, to days, for a car to bleed off enough that the brakes release after a decent application. If the engineer had made any brake applications prior to the point of the derailment, he would have already known he had a problem.
From where I sit, it's not looking good for him - but we'll wait for the rest of the facts.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
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Lack of brake pressure, as stated, does not necessarily indict the engineer yet. The engineer said the brake application did not work....that could the the reason why but does not say when he tried, what he tried, etc. But the report also indicated a rapid drop to zero which could coincide with the derailment pulling the train apart and dumping the air. So the conclusions here would be either the engineer dumped the air entering the curve or didn't apply the air ahead of the curve, or did apply the air but got no response as he stated, or other events which we can't imagine. The train jumped the tracks, let us not jump to conclusion.
rdamon Current reports .. Going 82 MPH into the curve at idle with 0 brake pressure. http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/02/us/new-york-train-derails/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
Current reports ..
Going 82 MPH into the curve at idle with 0 brake pressure.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/02/us/new-york-train-derails/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
It seems strange to me that there would be no brake pressure.
Johnny
Looks like he was speeding even through the 70mph stretch just before the curve. No brake application until 5 seconds before is bad for the engineer's side of the story.
NEW YORK (CBSNewYork/AP) – The Metro-North Railroad train that derailed while rounding a riverside curve in the Bronx was traveling at 82 mph at the time, a National Transportation Safety Board official said Monday.
Two event recorders from the train have been examined, and preliminary information indicates that the train went through the Spuyten Duyvil curve at 82 mph, in a zone where the speed limit drops from 70 mph to 30 mph, according to NTSB board member Earl Weener.
The NTSB also found that about 5 seconds before the engine ground to a halt, brake pressure dropped from 120 psi to 0, Weener said. Investigators still must determine the functioning of the brakes and why the throttle went to 0, he said.
zugmann Since electronic devices are such a no-no due to EO 26, or was that 27? (What are we up to now?) I guess the railroads will have to hire illustrators to draw the engineer as he goes about his/her duties. Like they do in some courtrooms.
Since electronic devices are such a no-no due to EO 26, or was that 27? (What are we up to now?)
I guess the railroads will have to hire illustrators to draw the engineer as he goes about his/her duties. Like they do in some courtrooms.
I am somehow reminded of NYC's "Gulf Curve Disaster" wherein the steam-powered "Lake Shore" piled up in a similar manner after the engineer shut down the throttle as he came into the curve.
One might wonder if the reason the brakes weren't taking was because the trainline was somehow blocked (ice?). If the engineer dumped the brakes and only the first car or two actually applied, that would certainly challenge the laws of physics, with the end result looking a lot like this incident.
jeffhergert narig01According to an article in the Wall Street Journal the engineer had 20 years experience. http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303670804579231830633455674 Someone with that would know about speed. Rgds IGN Some years ago, about the time I hired out, a study was released showing the length of service of the most at-risk group of railroad employees. The most at-risk were those with less than 5 years' service. The next group was those with 20+ years. The reasons given was that the first group 0-5yrs) was inexperienced. The second group because they were thought to become complacent. Jeff
narig01According to an article in the Wall Street Journal the engineer had 20 years experience. http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303670804579231830633455674 Someone with that would know about speed. Rgds IGN
Some years ago, about the time I hired out, a study was released showing the length of service of the most at-risk group of railroad employees. The most at-risk were those with less than 5 years' service. The next group was those with 20+ years.
The reasons given was that the first group 0-5yrs) was inexperienced. The second group because they were thought to become complacent.
Jeff
Seems as if the " Monday Morning Quarterbacking" has commenced.
Or as it could be called : "The Blame Game". PTC? Or rather the lack of such, on Metro-North ; Operator or Equipment failure? Has reared its ugly head. The use of the "Push-Pull" seems to have the 'Talking Heads' wagging. Then the final authority; NTSB; which is on the scene. That Authority will make its official incident report, off in the future. ( Against the push of the 24 hour news cycle.)...
The 'optics' of this are amazing. There was the incident in New Mexico ( Bayard ) the rialroad was the Southwestern RR and apparently the Locomotive "fell' into an arroyo some thirty to forty feet deep. The string of eight cars continued on to a derailment in a curve several miles down track. (paraphrased). The incident killed the three employees on the locomotive, [Out in the country and away from a population center, so not a lot of 'News" interest; beyond the initial blip on the National News radar [ 3 perrished..and their families and community will, mourn their passing: RIP)
Similarly, the M-N Train derailment in the vicinity on a Sunday morning [ 4 deaths, immediately, some 11 others in Critical condition and about 65/70 others injured enough to require medical assessment.] This incident, because it was a quiet Sunday AM, not much other news, and close to the 'resource -rich' NYC Media Environment) will get dissected by the media, until it is recaptured by any other event that will distract the national media's attention. The way we get our news seems to creates a level of cynicism in the general public .
Then there was the 70 vehicle pile up near Boston on Thanksgiving Day: The only attributed death was someone poor pet dog who died in the crash. 95 people in 70 vehicles on ice slick highway While, this is not an un-common occurrance, it does not warrent the Media build up. The Weather was( too nasty?) was an impediment to coverage? The Train derailment was in cool, clear weather which lent it to unfettered Media attention. Am I too cynical?
About the only thing that does't seem to be implicated is the interlocking north of Sputen Duyvil where Amtrak's West Side line diverges. If it had been the Empire Service trains would probably still be suspended. As it was Amtrak was authorized to operate through the area at restricted speed as of 3 PM Sunday Dec 1.
BaltACDI am surprised that the NTSB hasn't requested operating personnel use their personal cell phones to record 'selfie' videos of operating personnel in action![/sarcasm]
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
zugmann I'm sure the NTSB will recommend PTC and in-cab cameras.
I'm sure the NTSB will recommend PTC and in-cab cameras.
If only the NTSB can convince the Native American to process the required 27000+ radio antenna applications faster they might get PTC before the 22nd Century, not only getting the antenna locations built but getting the FCC to allocate the radio bandwidth for the PTC to operate. [sarcasm] I am surprised that the NTSB hasn't requested operating personnel use their personal cell phones to record 'selfie' videos of operating personnel in action![/sarcasm]
On the news tonight (think it was NBC) they interviewed some of the survivors who said they thought the train was going unusually fast around that curve just before the derailment. They have already recovered the event recorder.
I don't think the cold should have had an effect on the equipment as it had gone an hour and a half and about 50 or so miles with brake applications, etc. Tracks may have gotten slippery, iced over or something there coming into the interlocking and speed restriction. So, we await a reading of the black box and further investigation into the happenstances before and during.
It's official, at least four fatalities. Go to www.nj.com for the story plus video and a slide show.
God have mercy on them.
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