http://www.nbcnews.com/id/53607778
"We have met the enemy and he is us." Pogo Possum "We have met the anemone... and he is Russ." Bucky Katt "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future." Niels Bohr, Nobel laureate in physics
"I once spent a year in Philadelphia, I think it was on a Sunday."
W. C. Fields
Will the cause of making a wrong turn be determined as due to worn tie rods on the locomotive?
Two things
1. Train Crew did not ROUTE the train - they just went where the signals took them (unless they had been stopped at a Control Point because of signal trouble and were instructed by the Train Dispatcher to hand line the switches at the Control Point for their route)
2. Train Dispatcher is responsible for lining signals and routes at the Control Points they control. If the train was lined on the wrong route, the Train Dispatcher is on the hook for the primary error. The T&E crew is responsible for a secondary error - accepting a signal to territory that is not on their trains route (it is also most likely the T&E crew does not possess the proper paper work (Train Messages and Bulletins) for the wrong route that the train has been lined to.)
QUALIFIED Train and engine crews should know immediately when they are being lined onto a route other than the prescribed route for their train. These are MAJOR job failures for all employees involved and discipline will follow.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
jeaton http://www.nbcnews.com/id/53607778
Somehow this is a Seasonally Appropriate Event..... Might even be noted it has its own song!
" Chestnuts Roasting on an Open Fire" For a Train Crew to have run 4 to 6 miles in an unauthorized territory...You can bet that theirSeason will not be too bright...
"Chestnuts roasting on an open fire Jack Frost (Trainmastr ) nipping at your nose bits Yule-tide carols being sung by a choir (passengers, late for their dates) And folks dressed up like Eskimos. (Management Types)
Everybody knows a turkey (Conductor) and some mistletoe (Train Orders) Help to make the season bright (Signal Lights) Tiny tots with their eyes all aglow Will find it hard to sleep tonight. (awaiting an administrative hearing )
No point in going farther...You all get the drift and hopefully, with no oner hurt other than pride.
It will probably be an ugly set of circumstances for someone in a otherwise joyful season....
A couple years ago, I head a conversation on one of the scanner channels between a Union Pacific dispatcher and train crew, as follows:
Dispatcher: Train XX, where are you going? You're 100 miles south of where you're supposed to be, and going in the wrong direction!
Conductor: Dispatch, this is the route you sent us on --- if it's wrong, it's your fault, not ours. Do you want us to back up?
Dispatcher: Oh, no! You can't back up! There are too many grade crossings, and there's another train behind you. (pause) Oh, keep on going the way you are -- we'll have to find a way to get you back onto the right track and going in the right direction somewhere. Oh, what a mess!
That darn CAD.
Jeff
jeffhergert That darn CAD. Jeff
CADS is a tool. Just like a hammer or a screwdriver. It is as good or bad as the person using the tool. High powered tools can do more wrong quicker than low powered tools.
A dispatcher lined a route wrong. A crew may have accepted a wrong signal or a signal for an interlocking that had multiple switches for which the same signal could be displayed--or not. The engineer accepted the signal and proceeded through the interlocking onto the wrong route. So who is at fault? Somebody lined the route wrong. But the engineer not only accepted the route, he apparently went 5 miles before realizing it? He certainly was not familiar with his railroad or schedule to have allowed that to happen. On board crew? Somebody should have been aware somehow that it didn't "feel" right because speed, curves, whatever, weren't normal for the train or the route or the schedule. Whole bunch of things are wrong with this picture....starting with knowing one's job and assignment.
Another note: the route may have been lined for the branch and the engineer missed a stop signal and ran through it...but again, how could he not know where he was as soon as he traversed the interlocking?
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The news showed nice footage of one of Amtrak's new electrics. I don't know if that was the actual engine involved. I think Amtrak just wanted to "show off their new locomotive on tour" like they used to do with new trains in the Golden Age.
BaltACD jeffhergert That darn CAD. Jeff CADS is a tool. Just like a hammer or a screwdriver. It is as good or bad as the person using the tool. High powered tools can do more wrong quicker than low powered tools.
"To err is human - but to really foul things up takes a computer !"
(Note, though, that computers are built, programmed, used, maintained, and monitored by humans . . .
And of course many of us know the old joke about a train that got off the tracks at a grade crossing in the middle of a white-out blizzard (or dark, rainy night - or dense fog, etc.) and went about a mile down the country road before stopping. At the subsequent investigation, after all of the usual questions had been asked about "How could this have happened ?!?", etc., one official - in a moment of inspiration - thought to ask: "So why did you eventually stop ?"
"Oh", said the engineer, "I realized we didn't have any track that smooth . . . "
- Paul North.
Most likely happened at ZOO Tower / Interlocking - almost all the ex-PRR routes into or out of Philly go through it.
Specifically, the New York route "turns right" to the northeast; but the Harrisburg-Paoli route goes straight to the west, and the Bala Cynwyd line diverges from it a few miles further out (maybe they didn't recognize - or couldn't spell - that Welsh-origin name ? )
However - in defense of the personnel involved in this incident - the 3rd paragraph from this webpage on ZOO Tower: http://www.signalbox.org/overseas/usa/zoo.htm includes the following:
"The routing combinations were enough to drive any signalman insane."
See also this older/ former "Track Plan of Interlocking' there, at:
http://www.signalbox.org/overseas/usa/trackplan.php?name=Zoo&file=zoo.gif&size=300
Would Positive Train Control have prevented this incident, or will there still be something left up to human error?
I am looking at a present day track diagram and it doesn't help. Got to know the track the train was coming out of 30th St. on and which tracks he was lined to and what signal indication he had and either ignored or accepted. But the big question is, how could the engineer get through the interlocking much less go so many miles before figuring out he was "lost"? Dispatcher goofed with the line up. Engineer ignored a signal or accepted a wrong signal. Engineer didn't recognize he was going wrong route. Too much time elapsed for only one person to be at fault.
Paul_D_North_Jr BaltACD jeffhergert That darn CAD. Jeff CADS is a tool. Just like a hammer or a screwdriver. It is as good or bad as the person using the tool. High powered tools can do more wrong quicker than low powered tools. As someone else once said: "To err is human - but to really foul things up takes a computer !" (Note, though, that computers are built, programmed, used, maintained, and monitored by humans . . . And of course many of us know the old joke about a train that got off the tracks at a grade crossing in the middle of a white-out blizzard (or dark, rainy night - or dense fog, etc.) and went about a mile down the country road before stopping. At the subsequent investigation, after all of the usual questions had been asked about "How could this have happened ?!?", etc., one official - in a moment of inspiration - thought to ask: "So why did you eventually stop ?" "Oh", said the engineer, "I realized we didn't have any track that smooth . . . " - Paul North.
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
dakotafred Would Positive Train Control have prevented this incident, or will there still be something left up to human error?
Depends on how sophisticated PTC is made - if PTC is programmed to KNOW the approved route for a train and stop it when it is out of route - then it would stop the move after it was determined that it was on the wrong route. If PTC is only designed to prevent running Stop signals and/or running into the back of trains ahead - it would not have stopped the movement.
It's been my impression that one function of PTC will to ensure that a train does not exceed its limits, which this one clearly did. Normally one would probably think in terms of a train passing into a work zone or past a block station that it shouldn't be, but ending up on a wrong route would certainly qualify.
I could be wrong.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
The Trains NewsWire story said that there was a problem with the cab car. Could this train have been backing-up with the engineer at the "wrong" end, and another crewman in the last car as back-up lookout?
Must be a communicable disease - it's happening to airplanes....
http://www.cnn.com/2013/11/21/travel/kansas-cargo-plane-wrong-airport/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
AND JUST WHEN YOU THINK THAT CAN'T HAPPEN HERE..
.FROM THE WORLD OF WEIRD STUFF, " WHY'D THEY DO THAT ?" Desk .
This happened in Wichita yesterday...."...Boeing jet lands at Jabara Airport"
link to story@
http://www.kake.com/home/headlines/Boeing-jet-lands-at-Jabara-Airport-232781081.html
or here @ http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/11/21/21559785-giant-boeing-747-freighter-lands-at-wrong-kansas-airport
Elizabeth Cory with the Federal Aviation Administration in Washington tells KAKE News a Boeing 747 LCF Dreamlifter landed at Jabara around 10:20 Wednesday night. Statements from the city of Wichtia confirm the cargo plane was heading for McConnell Air Force Base.
It's not clear if the jet landed at Jabara by mistake, or for some other reason. Cory says the F.A.A. will investigate that deviation from schedule. But radio transmissions posted online suggest the crew thought it landed at Beechcraft..."
They are now having to deal with the issue of a runway that is 3 to 4 thousand feet shorter than the runway used at McConnell AFB for this aircraft.
Twitter pic @ pic.twitter.com/iGQpMfwIFB
Seems that Amtrak is also not immune to a level of " Pilot Error" as well.
11/22/2013...The rest of the story
@ linked: http://www.kwch.com/news/local-news/boeing-dreamlifter-lands-at-jabara/-/21054266/23081256/-/oma90hz/-/index.html
The ":Dreamlifter" is a modified 747 with a Cargo area of 65,000 sq ft. Normally uses consideralbly more runway that was available for yesterday's take of (5100 ft runway) The crew took it off using 4500 ft of runway...Normally it uses about 7000 ft to lift off.. It was a sort of media circus around this event yesterday.. I guess that gettting the Amtrak train back to the tracks where it was supposed to be was nowhere near the event this wrong landing created around here.
tree68 dakotafred Would Positive Train Control have prevented this incident, or will there still be something left up to human error? It's been my impression that one function of PTC will to ensure that a train does not exceed its limits, which this one clearly did. Normally one would probably think in terms of a train passing into a work zone or past a block station that it shouldn't be, but ending up on a wrong route would certainly qualify. I could be wrong.
A train running on Signal Indication, under PTC has no defined limits other than what the signal conveys - line the wrong signal and the PTC will let the train follow it unless it leads to a DTC/TWC territory for which the train has no authority.
The intended wye move involved going over the 36th street connector from the PW (Phil-Wash) line to the PH (Phil-Harris) line, with the intent to cross over, stop, change direction and head east via the "Subway" towards North Philadelphia and New York. The SEPTA branch line leaves the PW line on a flyover/duckunder a ways west of the Zoo interlocking, where the crossover move would take place. The track leading to the branch is a reasonable choice when crossing over to change direction. Both interlockings are under Amtrak's control, so somebody on the appropriate CETC desk should have noticed when the occupancy lights blinked out as the train headed for SEPTA-land.
The junction of the SEPTA branch with the PH line is only about 1.5 miles west of the ZOO Interlocking, roughly between N. 52nd and N. 54th Sts. just north of US Route 30 = Lancaster Ave., at about these Lat./ Long. coords.: N 39 58.729' W 75 13.683' That isn't a very long distance to go if on the wrong track, or to slow down and stop at a safe and comfortable rate after the crew realized that something wasn't quite right there . . .
Would this have counted as 'rare mileage' even though the train was there unintentionally ? Or, since it was a train that doesn't normally run there ? (even though others - SEPTA's - do ?)
Too bad the trackage north and west of the Cynwyd Station on Montgomery Avenue has been torn up and is now the Cynwyd Heritage Trail - see: http://www.cynwydtrail.org/ I'd have liked to have seen the Amtrak train crossing the massive old PRR concrete viaduct/ bridge over the Schuylkill River into Manayunk ! (see the 'banner' photo at the top of this page: http://www.cynwydtrail.org/photos/ )
Can someone figure out a phonetic spelling of how the local's pronounce "Cynwyd"?
Kin-wood.
Perhaps Amtrak's new mission statement is "To boldly go where no other national rail passenger carrier has gone". " I need more catenary, Mr. Scott!"
rcdrye The intended wye move involved going over the 36th street connector from the PW (Phil-Wash) line to the PH (Phil-Harris) line, with the intent to cross over, stop, change direction and head east via the "Subway" towards North Philadelphia and New York. The SEPTA branch line leaves the PW line on a flyover/duckunder a ways west of the Zoo interlocking, where the crossover move would take place. The track leading to the branch is a reasonable choice when crossing over to change direction. Both interlockings are under Amtrak's control, so somebody on the appropriate CETC desk should have noticed when the occupancy lights blinked out as the train headed for SEPTA-land.
These Celtic names can give a non-Celt fits when it comes to pronouncing them.
Johnny
As for PTC...its effectiveness in this instance is unknown, at least by us. If the train passed a stop signal, then, yes, it should have stopped the train. The real questions and answers lie with the engineer: did he go through a stop signal, did he accept a wrong signal, did he not know his routing through the interlocking, why didn't he recognize he was not on the Corridor to NYP instead of on a commuter branch, was the engineer in the front of the move to begin with? And I am sure there are many other questions and others to be questioned before any real answers will emerge. After that the truth will have to be found.
The cardinal rule of being 'qualified' on a territory is to know where the territory goes and knowing the physical characteristics and landmarks that exist on the territory - also what the correct signal indications that can be displayed at each signal location. Being qualified means know what tracks are properly on your route and what tracks are not on your route.
Control Point operators (Train Dispatcher or Block Operator), on occasion, will line the wrong route for a train - they are human, it happens. The first sign of this mistake is the train receiving the 'wrong' signal indication at the Control Point, for their proper routes - if the Control Point displays the same signal indication (which will be less than Clear) for multiple routes, the next opportunity for the train to know a mistake has been made is that the ends up on the 'wrong' track. Knowing that a mistake has been made, it is now the obligation of the train to come to a immediate controled stop and communicate with the operator of the control point to identify the mistake and have a job briefing on how the mistake will be corrected. Going beyond the immediate area of the Control Point on a mistaken route has the Train's crew holding full responsibility for the event.
I cannot speak to the trains or territory involved in the OP, on my carrier we have locations where there are multiple routes spreading from a Control Point - In normal operations, for various opertional reasons - trains can be properly lined to operate on all routes - some trains operating over the Control Point know that their train can ONLY OPERATE on one of the routes (even though the crew may be qualified on all routes). Should the wrong route be lined for a train it is the responsibility of the trains crew to bring their train to a controlled stop as soon as the train identifies that they are going to the wrong route for their train and then contact the operator of the control point to map out what actions will be necessary to correct the situation - NO ACTIONS can be taken by either the train or the operator of the control point without a full and complete job briefing between all parties that are affected by the mistake (more than the train on the wrong route may be affected). This event is a SERIOUS problem, but all problems can be solved.
Of course it's in the Book of Rules regarding the acceptance of a signal and a route and not accepting if not routed right. Stop, notify the dispatcher (I don't think you even have to clear the interlocking!) and wait for his orders. Clearly in this instance the route was lined wrong--and that is the only fact we can confirm. Again I bring up the question that since this was an apparent back up move from 30th St. and train operated from the cab car for the move, was there an engineer in this cab or a conductor or trainman to guide the engineer in the locomotive at the other end of the train, i.e, was the person in the cab car qualified to operate the train or guide the engineer? Until we see the final report, the facts, we can only offer conjecture as to who did what wrong. The dispatcher may not have line up any route but the train passed a red board and it lands in the lap of whoever was in the cab car during the move. Or it could be a series of mistakes and mishaps with several people being blamed.
Does anyone here remember how the news doesn't say the whole story, and the reporters leave out key things. At least this reporter isn't as bad as the ones that say "the train did not swerve to avoid ...." There might be more to the story.
henry6 Of course it's in the Book of Rules regarding the acceptance of a signal and a route and not accepting if not routed right. Stop, notify the dispatcher (I don't think you even have to clear the interlocking!) and wait for his orders. Clearly in this instance the route was lined wrong--and that is the only fact we can confirm. Again I bring up the question that since this was an apparent back up move from 30th St. and train operated from the cab car for the move, was there an engineer in this cab or a conductor or trainman to guide the engineer in the locomotive at the other end of the train, i.e, was the person in the cab car qualified to operate the train or guide the engineer? Until we see the final report, the facts, we can only offer conjecture as to who did what wrong. The dispatcher may not have line up any route but the train passed a red board and it lands in the lap of whoever was in the cab car during the move. Or it could be a series of mistakes and mishaps with several people being blamed.
I doubt that there will ever be a 'official report' concerning the incident released to the public. This will be handled under the carriers employee discipline procedures and that will be the end of it. Nobody was injured or killed; HAZMAT was not involved and was not spilled, no communities were evacuated.
As police are known to say 'Nothing to see here, move along'!
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