Since the topic of mileage was raised earlier, here are some actual city pairs:
Chicago to Seattle:
BN, via Oregon, Anoka, Casselton, Havre, Wenatchee 2181
BN, via Oregon, Anoka, Prosper, Havre, Wenatchee 2177
BN, via Oregon, Anoka, Casselton, Havre, Wishram, Centralia 2400
BN, via Galesburg, Louisville, Ravenna, Sheridan, St. Regis, Wenatchee 2345
BN, via Galesburg, Louisville, Ravenna, Sheridan, St. Regis, Wishram 2568
MILW, via Malden 2178
C&NW/UP via Boone, Blair, North Platte, Kemmerer, Kuna, Hood River 2421
Chicago to Tacoma:
BN, via Oregon, Anoka, Casselton, Havre, Wenatchee, Seattle 2221
BN, via Oregon, Anoka, Prosper, Havre, Wenatchee 2217
BN, via Oregon, Anoka, Casselton, Havre, Ritzville, Vancouver, WA 2361
MILW via Malden 2207
C&NW/UP via Boone, Blair, Kuna 2381
Chicago to Portland:
BN, via Oregon, Anoka, Casselton, Havre, Ritzville, Wishram 2234
BN, via Oregon, Anoka, Prosper, Havre, Ritzville, Wishram 2230
MILW, via Malden, Tacoma, Maytown 2361
C&NW/UP, via Boone, Blair, Kuna 2237
Chicago to Longview, WA:
BN via Oregon, Anoka, Casselton, Havre, Ritzville, Vancouver, WA: 2260
BN via Oregon, Anoka, Prosper, Havre, Ritzville, Vancouver, WA: 2256
MILW, via Malden, Tacoma, Maytown 2312
C&NW/UP via Boone, Blair, Kuna 2283
St. Paul to Seattle:
BN, via Anoka, Casselton, Havre, Wenatchee 1751
BN, via Anoka, Prosper, Havre, Wenatchee 1747
MILW, via Malden 1768
Chicago to St. Paul:
CB&Q via Oregon, Winona Jct. 427
C&NW, via Madison 410
C&NW, via Milwaukee 408
CR&IP, via West Liberty, Manly 514
MILW, via Portage, Winona 410
Soo, via Waukesha, Owen, Chippewa Falls 449
GN, via Willmar, Fargo, Havre 1783
GN, via Osseo, Alexandria, Grand Forks 1818
GN, via Willmar, Kindred, Havre 1776
GN, via Osseo, Alexandria, Prosper, Havre 1765
NP, via Butte, Dixon 1892
NP, via Helena, Dixon 1894
NP, via Helena, St. Regis 1922
MILW, via Spokane 1782
St. Paul to Longview, WA:
GN, via Willmar, Fargo, Havre, Wenatchee, Seattle 1926
GN, via Osseo, Alexandria, Grand Forks, Havre, Wenatchee, Seattle 1961
GN, via Willmar, Kindred, Havre, Wenatchee, Seattle 1919
GN, via Osseo, Alexandria, Prosper, Havre, Wenatchee, Seattle 1908
GN, via Willmar, Fargo, Havre, Pasco/SP&S, Vancouver, WA 1857
GN, via Osseo, Alexandria, Grand Forks, Havre, Pasco, Vancouver, WA 1892
GN, via Willmar, Kindred, Havre, Pasco/SP&S, Vancouver, WA 1840
GN, via Osseo, Alexandria, Prosper, Havre, Pasco/SP&S, Vancouver, WA 1839
MILW, via Spokane, Tacoma, Maytown 1916
MILW, via Malden, Tacoma, Maytown 1902
NP, via Butte, Dixon, Auburn 1991
NP, via Helena, Dixon, Auburn 1993
NP, via Helena, St. Regis, Auburn 2021
NP, via Butte, Dixon, Pasco, Wishram/SP&S, Vancouver, WA 1899
NP, via Helena, Dixon, Pasco, Wishram/SP&S, Vancouver, WA 1901
NP, via Helena, St. Regis, Pasco, Wishram/SP&S, Vancouver, WA 1929
St. Paul to Spokane:
GN, via Willmar, Fargo, Havre 1453
GN, via Osseo, Alexandria, Grand Forks 1488
GN, via Willmar, Kindred, Havre 1446
GN, via Osseo, Alexandria, Prosper, Havre 1435
NP, via Butte, Dixon 1496
NP, via Helena, Dixon 1498
NP, via Helena, St. Regis 1526
MILW via Harlowton 1473
Soo/CP/SI via Harvey, Moose Jaw, Dunmore, Yahk, Eastport 1476
St. Paul to Portland:
GN, via Willmar, Fargo, Havre, Pasco/SP&S 1833
GN, via Osseo, Alexandria, Grand Forks, Havre, Pasco/SP&S 1868
GN, via Willmar, Kindred, Havre, Pasco/SP&S 1826
GN, via Osseo, Alexandria, Prosper, Havre, Pasco/SP&S 1815
NP, via Butte, Dixon, Ritzville, Wishram/SP&S 1873
NP, via Helena, Dixon, Ritzville, Wishram/SP&S 1875
NP, via Helena, St. Regis, Ritzville, Wishram/SP&S 1903
Soo/CP/SI/UP via Harvey, Moose Jaw, Dunmore, Yahk, Eastport, Hinkle 1856
St. Paul to Vancouver, BC:
GN, via Willmar, Fargo, Havre 1873
GN, via Osseo, Alexandria, Grand Forks 1908
GN, via Willmar, Kindred, Havre 1866
GN, via Osseo, Alexandria, Prosper, Havre 1855
Soo/CP, via Harvey, Portal, Moose Jaw, Calgary 1805
St. Paul to Fargo:
GN, via Willmar 262
GN, via Osseo, Alexandria 242
NP, via Staples 252
MILW, via Ortonville 307
St. Paul to Grand Forks:
GN, via Osseo, Fargo 320
GN, via Willmar, Fargo 340
GN, via Ada 324
NP, via Manitoba Jct. 319
St. Paul to Great Falls:
GN via Willmar, Fargo, Minot, Havre 1047
GN via Willmar, Kindred, Minot 1029
GN via Osseo, Alexandria, Prosper, Minot 1028
MILW via Harlowton 1129
St. Paul to Helena:
GN via Willmar, Fargo, Minot, Great Falls 1145
GN via Willmar, Kindred, Havre, Great Falls 1127
GN via Osseo, Alexandria, Prosper, Havre, Great Falls 1126
NP via Bismarck 1121
St. Paul to Butte:
GN via Willmar, Fargo, Minot, Great Falls 1218
GN via Willmar, Kindred, Havre, Great Falls 1200
GN via Osseo, Alexandria, Prosper, Havre, Great Falls 1199
MILW via Harlowton 1115
NP via Bismarck 1118
Duluth to Seattle:
GN via Cass Lake, Devils Lake, Wenatchee 1790
GN via Brook Park, St. Cloud, Prosper 1828
NP via West Duluth, Staples, Butte, Dixon 1887
NP via West Duluth, Staples, Helena, Dixon 1889
NP via West Duluth, Staples, Helena, St. Regis 1917
NP via Superior, Staples, Butte, Dixon 1899
NP via Superior, Staples, Helena, Dixon 1901
NP via Superior, Staples, Helena, St. Regis 1929
MILW via West Duluth, Harlowton, Malden 1920
Lewistown to Seattle:
BN via Great Falls, Whitefish, Rock Creek, Rathdrum, Wenatchee 936
GN, via Great Falls, Whitefish, Eureka, Newport, Wenatchee 962
MILW, via Harlowton, Malden 901
Lewistown to Portland:
BN via Great Falls, Rathdrum, Ritzville, Wishram 978
MILW via Malden, Black River, Tacoma, Frederickson, Maytown 1083
Great Falls to Seattle:
BN, via Whitefish, Rock Creek, Rathdrum, Wenatchee 827
BN, via Whitefish, Rock Creek, Rathdrum, Ritzville, Vancouver, WA 1031
GN, via Whitefish, Eureka, Newport, Wenatchee 853
MILW, via Harlowton, Malden 1037
Great Falls to Spokane:
BN, via Whitefish, Rathdrum 501
GN, via Whitefish 523
MILW via Harlowton, Manito 742
Great Falls to Longview, WA:
BN via Whitefish, Rathdrum, Ritzville, Vancouver, WA 905
GN via Wenatchee, Seattle 996
GN via SP&S/Pasco, Vancouver, WA 929
MILW via Malden, Black River, Tacoma, Frederickson, Maytown 1176
Great Falls to Portland:
BN via Whitefish, Rathdrum, Ritzville, Wishram 869
MILW via Malden, Black River, Tacoma, Frederickson, Maytown 1219
MILW/UP via Malden, Marengo, Hinkle 1098
.
As you can see, the Milwaukee had the mileage advantage only in a few instances, and then only by a very few miles. Not that mileage matters all that much. The most telling example of the inferiority of the MILW route was this comparison:
Missoula to Ellensburg:
MILW via Malden 416
MILW-UP via Spokane 430
NP via Dixon 530
NP via St. Regis 558
In 1961, the last year that the MILW offered passenger service all the way to the coast on its "Western Extension", MILW train 15, the Olympian Hiawatha departed Missoula at 620 PM, 1 minute ahead of NP train 25, the North Coast Limited (at 621 PM). But even though the MILW route was 100 miles shorter than the NP, the North Coast Limited arrived in Ellensburg an hour EARLIER than the Olympian Hiawatha (and the North Coast Hiawatha even had the added delay of switching out its Portland cars in Pasco). The reason: The MILW route had the torturous crossing of the Bitteroots (St. Paul Pass) with a lot of curvature, and the steep climb away from the Columbia River at Beverly. It was also a single track route (some of which, Manito to Marengo) was Union Pacific. The NP, on the other hand, had two alternate routes (between De Smet and Paradise and between Spokane and Pasco via subsidiary SP&S) as well as some CTC.
Mileage does not the superior route make. But in most cases, the MILW wasn't the shortest (either).
Mark Meyer
blue streak 1 But what happens when the freight has to be on that alternate route MRL ?? Hpw do the profiles compare ??
In Montana both NP and MILW crossed the Big Belt Mountains and the main range of the Rockys. Detailed data on MILW previously given. NP in Belts summit 5590 with 1.8% ascending west and 1.9% ascending east. MILW had better ascending grade eastward to slightly higher summit.
Main Range NP summit Mullan Pass 5566 feet with 2.2% ascending westward and 1.4% ascending eastward. Pipestone 6347 feet, 800 feet higher. MILW grades 2.0% westward and 1.7% eastward.
I would call it slight advantange to the NP, but NP was not a prize.
MILW's biggest single handicap was St. Paul Pass in Idaho. Neither NP nor GN had anything comparable.
The other thing to remember is that the GN had, and BNSF has, a route from its main line through Great Falls to Laurel and connection with former CB&Q. The only reason some through PNW traffic has to go via MRL is contractural obligations, and the cost of increasing capacity on the former GN route, which I understand is much more active than it was in the 1960's.
Mac
I understand that BN bought the MILW Snoqualmie Pass route with its lower summit elevation, as an alternative to Stampede Pass. The story I heard was that as traffic levels fell, they then though they could do without either, and that the Cascade Tunnel route could handle all the traffic. They pulled the MILW track before traffic levels started to rebound.
Well, here's a 1970s tonnage map from the pages of Trains. I guess you have to be a subscriber to see it.
http://trn.trains.com/~/media/import/files/pdf/b/1/b/mainline-tonnage-1970s-map.pdf
It shows the Milwaukee Road was not a significant freight carrier west of a location near Aberdeen, SD. In fact, it drops off the map because the map only shows lines of 10 million gross ton miles or more per year.
They just didn't have enough business to support their Pacific Coast Extension and there was virtually nothing they could do to generate enough business to support the line.
I was just starting out in the mid 70s and interned at a Chicago freight forwarder. We handled TOFC LTL to the Pacific Northwest, among other things, We were in direct competition with motor freight. Virtually everything to Portland and Seattle went CNW-UP. With some BN, as the BN was just starting to take intermodal seriously. We flat out did not use the Milwaukee. They were non competitive. (As shown by the map) The Milwaukee Road salesmen didn't even try. They never came in while the other railroads were camped out trying to take the powerful ones to lunch.
The Milwaukee was the high cost, low service rail carrier to the Pacific Northwest. And that was the death warrant for their Seattle line.
GearedmSteam:
I fleetingly thought that if UP would restore the Milw line they could compete with BNSF. Unfortunately the cost would be a killer in addition to missing the big towns (not cities) and having a poorer profile even though about 100 miles shorter. Also UP has their own line fron Salt Lake City to Portland/Seattle via the Oregon Short Line so why split their traffic between two lines when one handles it effectively. Even back 40 years ago UP was smart enough to realize that the Milw line would be a looser.
Victrola1 Sun Tzu defined 13 principles in his The Art of War while Napoleon listed 115 maxims. American Civil War General Nathan Bedford Forrest required only one: "get there firstest with the mostest". http://www.easy-strategy.com/strategy-principles.html Steel blade, or steel rail, sound advice.
http://www.easy-strategy.com/strategy-principles.html
Steel blade, or steel rail, sound advice.
the Milwaukee Road's PCE is a fine example of what has been called "railroad geopolitics" - nothing at all to do with marketplace realities or competitive ability, but just that "We're here, so we're entitled to a fair share of the traffic", and so on.
- Paul North.
PNWRMNM ccltrains Can someone give a link to the link that shows the profiles of the lines in this area? Thanks The best source that I know of for comparison of lines serving the PNW is "James J. Hill's Legacy to Railway Operations" by Earl J. Currie. Mr. Currie is a retired BN officer. The book was publish privately. If anyone is interested in purchasing it, contact me directly and I will give you his email address. East of the Montana mountains, that is Havre on the GN, the GN had ruling grades of .65% in both directions, except for 1% between St. Paul and Minneapolis. MILW had 1.0% in both directions. The GN crossed the main range of the Rocky Mountains on 1% grade westward and 1.8% eastward. The MILW had three mountain summits in Montana and Idaho. From East to West the Big Belt Mountains, summit at Loweth, 1.4% westward and 1.0% eastward, the main range at Pipestone Pass. 2.0% westward and 1.66% eastward, and St. Paul Pass Idaho 1.7% in both directions. Summit elevation of GN's Marias Pass was 5213 feet; on the MILW Loweth was 5802, Pipestone Pass was 6347, and St. Paul Pass in the Bitter Root Mountains was 4170. Both the GN and the NP passed the longitude of St Paul Pass at elevations of about 2200 feet in river valleys. St Paul Pass required the MILW to lift its trains nearly half a mile higher than both the GN and NP. That costs serious money for both locomotives and fuel. The GN avoided the Big Belt Mountains entirely. The MILW and NP did not. All three lines had to cross the Cascade Mountains in Washington state. The NP had the easiest job of it; Stampede Pass at 2852 feet and a 2.5 mile long tunnel. NP had the shortest helper district, Lester to Easton, about 20 miles. The GN's Stevens Pass was 2818 feet with a 7.79 mile tunnel. GN's approached the tunnel on 2.2% grades of about 12 miles on the west and 7 miles on the east. The GN's electrified district was about 75 miles long between Skykomish and Wenatchee. Heading westward, the MILW crossed the Columbia River at Beverly, turned right and climbed for 17.2 miles on a 2.2% grade to the crest of the Saddle Mountains at 2445 feet with a short tunnel, and then dropped down a 1.6% grade to a low of 1585 feet at Ellensburg. The climb to the crest of Snoqualmie Pass and a roughly 2 mile tunnel at 2564 feet was at a gentle .7%, but the descent to Cedar River was 1.74% ruling grade. While Snoqualmie had the lowest summit elevation of the group, the 1000 foot climb from Ellensburg should be added for comparison. The MILW had to lift its eastward trains a total of about 3500 feet above Puget Sound, 700 feet more than its competitors to get over the Cascades. The fact that MILW helper grades were not contiguous probably encouraged the electrification between Tacoma and Seattle and Othello, a point 20 miles or so East of Beverly, something on the order of 250 route miles. MILW partisans claim the MILW was shorter. They are correct. MILW was 2188 miles Chicago to Seattle. GN was 2250, and the NP was 2335 miles. After the BN merger the BN preferred freight route was/is 2201 miles. As for me and my house I choose the GN on the basis of grades and operating cost. Mac McCulloch
ccltrains Can someone give a link to the link that shows the profiles of the lines in this area? Thanks
Can someone give a link to the link that shows the profiles of the lines in this area?
Thanks
The best source that I know of for comparison of lines serving the PNW is "James J. Hill's Legacy to Railway Operations" by Earl J. Currie. Mr. Currie is a retired BN officer. The book was publish privately. If anyone is interested in purchasing it, contact me directly and I will give you his email address.
East of the Montana mountains, that is Havre on the GN, the GN had ruling grades of .65% in both directions, except for 1% between St. Paul and Minneapolis. MILW had 1.0% in both directions.
The GN crossed the main range of the Rocky Mountains on 1% grade westward and 1.8% eastward. The MILW had three mountain summits in Montana and Idaho. From East to West the Big Belt Mountains, summit at Loweth, 1.4% westward and 1.0% eastward, the main range at Pipestone Pass. 2.0% westward and 1.66% eastward, and St. Paul Pass Idaho 1.7% in both directions.
Summit elevation of GN's Marias Pass was 5213 feet; on the MILW Loweth was 5802, Pipestone Pass was 6347, and St. Paul Pass in the Bitter Root Mountains was 4170. Both the GN and the NP passed the longitude of St Paul Pass at elevations of about 2200 feet in river valleys. St Paul Pass required the MILW to lift its trains nearly half a mile higher than both the GN and NP. That costs serious money for both locomotives and fuel. The GN avoided the Big Belt Mountains entirely. The MILW and NP did not.
All three lines had to cross the Cascade Mountains in Washington state. The NP had the easiest job of it; Stampede Pass at 2852 feet and a 2.5 mile long tunnel. NP had the shortest helper district, Lester to Easton, about 20 miles. The GN's Stevens Pass was 2818 feet with a 7.79 mile tunnel. GN's approached the tunnel on 2.2% grades of about 12 miles on the west and 7 miles on the east. The GN's electrified district was about 75 miles long between Skykomish and Wenatchee.
Heading westward, the MILW crossed the Columbia River at Beverly, turned right and climbed for 17.2 miles on a 2.2% grade to the crest of the Saddle Mountains at 2445 feet with a short tunnel, and then dropped down a 1.6% grade to a low of 1585 feet at Ellensburg. The climb to the crest of Snoqualmie Pass and a roughly 2 mile tunnel at 2564 feet was at a gentle .7%, but the descent to Cedar River was 1.74% ruling grade. While Snoqualmie had the lowest summit elevation of the group, the 1000 foot climb from Ellensburg should be added for comparison. The MILW had to lift its eastward trains a total of about 3500 feet above Puget Sound, 700 feet more than its competitors to get over the Cascades. The fact that MILW helper grades were not contiguous probably encouraged the electrification between Tacoma and Seattle and Othello, a point 20 miles or so East of Beverly, something on the order of 250 route miles.
MILW partisans claim the MILW was shorter. They are correct. MILW was 2188 miles Chicago to Seattle. GN was 2250, and the NP was 2335 miles. After the BN merger the BN preferred freight route was/is 2201 miles.
As for me and my house I choose the GN on the basis of grades and operating cost.
Mac McCulloch
dup
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
jeffhergert Here's a site with quite a bit of information within it. http://milwaukeeroadarchives.com/IndexPage.html Jeff
Here's a site with quite a bit of information within it.
http://milwaukeeroadarchives.com/IndexPage.html
Jeff
http://milwaukeeroadarchives.com/Chicago,%20Milwaukee,%20St%20Paul%20Pacific.html
Found in the economic studies section.
1977 car loads/tonnage west of Miles City. Originated 86,422 cars/3,711868 tons. Terminated 112,748 cars/5,524,403 tons.
Car loads for automobiles out of that: originated 1654, terminated 6646.
Sun Tzu defined 13 principles in his The Art of War while Napoleon listed 115 maxims. American Civil War General Nathan Bedford Forrest required only one: "get there firstest with the mostest".
I guess some clarifications are in order. First, my reference to "prosperous" towns in SD was tongue in cheek as none of those places ever amounted to anything. The PCE main line missed the biggest cities such as Pierre, Sioux Falls, and Rapid City, choosing to serve a lot of places like that on branch lines without the benefit of timely mainline service. The same is true for Idaho where the PCE bypassed all major manufacturing and city centers, only servicing the low volume, low profit margin sawmills and the cyclical and seasonal grain industry. Bovil, Setters, and Worley are hardly places to build a transcon to serve, and it's no wonder they went bankrupt.
I worked 11 years for a medium-sized mill in Montana that produced 30 million BF of finished lumber yearly. We were located 14 miles from the MILW Sunset Branch, but our 20 or so daily loads a day went by TRUCK, partly because of transloading costs, and partly because the MILW would PROBABLY have switched the branch only once a week, providing poor, untimely service. There were no other industries online on the branch, even tho it ran right past the Anaconda mill in Bonner, which the NP served. It was ten times the size of our mill, and was the largest mill in town.
My point is this -- MOST of the business went to other railroads that were already there and the MILW got the scraps. Ya, they may have had business, but would YOU invest hundreds of millions of bucks to pick up scraps that amounted to only 2 trains a day? As for the auto unloading facility in Spokane, that is probably true. I saw two or three autoracks on 263 passing thru Missoula on occasion -- LOTS of business, I guess For me it's not like it's a booming thing. All these guys that say the MILW served all of these industries I want to ask -- where were the trains? I never saw much of anything.
The NP passed thru Missoula where I lived -- with 15 or so trains per day. I'd spend an afternoon on the NP and always saw a good amount of activity and never got skunked, but I was REALLY lucky to catch a MILW train. Both the Thunderhawk (262) and the XL Special (261) passed thru when I was either busy or asleep, so that left 263 and 264. I saw the Thunderhawk only once -- about 11:30PM and it was REALLY rolling! I never saw the XL Special or 264 in the four years I lived there, so I guess they passed thru at night or when I was attending school. That left only 263 and one switcher for the entire city. Not exactly a blaze of glory in my book.
The claim made earlier in this thread that there was "Zip in all of Idaho" with regards to business for the MILW is incorrect. On its main line and branches in Idaho, MILW served lumber mills in St. Maries, Wayland, Santa, Fernwood, Emerald Creek, Elk River, Spirit Lake, Post Falls, Huetter, and Coeur d'Alene. It also served ag-related businesses (grain, seed, hay, fertilizer, livestock) at Bovill, Setters, and Worley. I'm sure there are other locations I've failed to list. MILW also moved considerable log traffic along its Elk River Branch, much of it coming to the mills in St. Maries or getting dropped into the St. Joe River to ultimately move north across Lake Coeur d'Alene to other mills.
As for Spokane and its surroundings, there were no less than three separate match companies located adjacent to the MILW East Spokane Yard, not to mention cement and lumber traffic coming off the former I&WN branch from Metaline Falls. MILW in later years built an automobile unloading facility at its East Spokane Yard. Today, UP uses this ex-MILW yard (instead of the UP yard that once existed nearby), and UP continues to deliver autoracks to the ex-MILW facility.
Streak,
Compare the profiles. MILW vs GN is NOT a superior route in terms of elevation or grades. It just aint so.
cab we suspect that this route would have been a very good alternate for BNSF.?
less elevation, better grades, fewer snow days, less total snow, fewer potential slow sections.
Certainly the amount of traffic to PNW today was never anticipated during previous bankruptcies.
PNWRMNM ccltrains Since the PCE was the last line built they had access to state of the art building equipment. Was their ROW superior to others that were built essentially with pick and shovel? Compare the profiles of MILW, UP, NP, and GN. GN had by far the best profile and thus the lowest operating cost. NP was there first and all rail dependent business located in MT, ID, and WA from 1883 to 1909 located on the NP. Jim Hill deliberately stayed away from the NP so he could develop a separate territory. GN came second in 1893, so they had a 16 year jump on MILW. The MILW was located right along side the NP for hundreds of miles across Montana and generally parallel all the way from Minnesota. The decision to build the MILW was made in 1905. The Elkins Act regulating rates was passed in 1903. The decision to build the Panama Canal came in 1906 IIRC. I would argue that had the MILW management been paying attention, they should have would have cancelled the project in 1906, when another Act to regulate rates was passed. The MILW main was completed in 1909. The last of the "Progressive Era" rate regulatory acts was passed in 1910, which had the practical effect of freezing nominal rates in a period of inflation, something then new to the American Economy. The entire industry was capital starved by 1917. The PCE never developed enough traffic to come close to supporting the debt incurred to build it. The MILW went bankrupt in 1925, a bankruptcy that lasted for an unusually long 20 years. There is a lot to be said for being there "the firstest (NP) with the mostest (GN)". Mac
ccltrains Since the PCE was the last line built they had access to state of the art building equipment. Was their ROW superior to others that were built essentially with pick and shovel?
Since the PCE was the last line built they had access to state of the art building equipment. Was their ROW superior to others that were built essentially with pick and shovel?
Compare the profiles of MILW, UP, NP, and GN. GN had by far the best profile and thus the lowest operating cost. NP was there first and all rail dependent business located in MT, ID, and WA from 1883 to 1909 located on the NP. Jim Hill deliberately stayed away from the NP so he could develop a separate territory. GN came second in 1893, so they had a 16 year jump on MILW.
The MILW was located right along side the NP for hundreds of miles across Montana and generally parallel all the way from Minnesota.
The decision to build the MILW was made in 1905. The Elkins Act regulating rates was passed in 1903. The decision to build the Panama Canal came in 1906 IIRC. I would argue that had the MILW management been paying attention, they should have would have cancelled the project in 1906, when another Act to regulate rates was passed.
The MILW main was completed in 1909. The last of the "Progressive Era" rate regulatory acts was passed in 1910, which had the practical effect of freezing nominal rates in a period of inflation, something then new to the American Economy. The entire industry was capital starved by 1917. The PCE never developed enough traffic to come close to supporting the debt incurred to build it. The MILW went bankrupt in 1925, a bankruptcy that lasted for an unusually long 20 years.
There is a lot to be said for being there "the firstest (NP) with the mostest (GN)".
CM&StP goes into bankruptcy in 1925. Emerges as the CMStP&P in 1928. Again goes into bankruptcy in 1935, emerging in 1945. Maybe not in the best of financial shape in the mean time, but not a 20 year continuous bankruptcy.
Guys, the remains of the PCE still exist west of Miles City, Montana, and it is largely a trail. The route is mostly intact.
Jim, thanks for clearing up the end of electrification.
blue streak 1 So if rail banking had been in force then ?
So if rail banking had been in force then ?
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Victrola1 C. M. & St. P to Seattle extension. C. R. I. & P. Sioux Falls to Seattle extension. C. B. & Q. Alliance to Seattle extension. Etc. Given the traffic base and routes left to take, would it have made much difference in the end?
C. M. & St. P to Seattle extension. C. R. I. & P. Sioux Falls to Seattle extension. C. B. & Q. Alliance to Seattle extension. Etc. Given the traffic base and routes left to take, would it have made much difference in the end?
The same has been said about the mostly abandoned Erie main line between Chicago and New Jersey, especially relating to clearances that would have allowed double stacks from the outset.
But now the route would be a great one for CHI - west coast IMs. No intermediate traffic to worry about and if electrification had been filled in ? with the multi voltage capable loco motors available today a slow conversion to a 25 Kv system could be in progress today ?
GN_Fan Once the extension got into S. Dakota, it went thru robust business places like Aberdean, Mobridge, and Marmarth.
NorthWest The Milwaukee's management decided to discontinue electrification in the early 70's. The idea was that selling the wire would pay for the diesels to replace the electrics. Unfortunately, the 1973 oil crisis had raised the price of diesel, and the recession's drop in copper prices meant the diesels weren't paid for. (IIRC, the amount of money spent on buying diesels could have closed the electrification gap, but I could be wrong).
The Milwaukee's management decided to discontinue electrification in the early 70's. The idea was that selling the wire would pay for the diesels to replace the electrics. Unfortunately, the 1973 oil crisis had raised the price of diesel, and the recession's drop in copper prices meant the diesels weren't paid for. (IIRC, the amount of money spent on buying diesels could have closed the electrification gap, but I could be wrong).
Selling the copper wire in no way would 'pay' for new diesels(even at 1974 prices). In fact, the Milwaukee Road had to leave the overhead up and ;energized' to power the block signal system as there were no power line to recharge the signal system batteries.....
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
State of the art building equipment isn't going a build a route with better grades if all of the routes with better grades are already occupied, even if those routes were built with pick and shovel.
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