Maybe a very elementary question, but what railroads made up "The Big 4"?
-Justin
The road to to success is always under construction. _____________________________________________________________________________ When the going gets tough, the tough use duct tape.
It's the "big four" cities on the railroad - Cleveland, Cincinnati, Chicago and St. Louis.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Surprising how little was written about CCC&StL. (All the NYC/ Water Level Route bubbas ever talk about is the railroad east of the Allegheny molehills. - Big 4 never hired a PR man? It would appear that MC & LS&MS were almost as obscure most of the time.)
Justin: http://madisonrails.railfan.net/bigfour.html
mudchicken Surprising how little was written about CCC&StL. (All the NYC/ Water Level Route bubbas ever talk about is the railroad east of the Allegheny molehills. - Big 4 never hired a PR man? It would appear that MC & LS&MS were almost as obscure most of the time.) Justin: http://madisonrails.railfan.net/bigfour.html
If people only knew of all of the mergers aquisitions, stock trades, purchases from bankruptcy and 'fallen flag' transactions that have gone into making up today's Class 1 carriers. Considering the 'local nature' of railroads that were birthed in the 19th Century, hundreds of companies made up the what were known of the Class 1's of the WW II era which we look at as fallen flag carriers. I am certain title history searches for property owned by today's Class 1's would drive the searcher to heavily imbibe in adult beverages during the hair pulling exercise.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
bubbajustin Maybe a very elementary question, but what railroads made up "The Big 4"? -Justin
Maybe a very elementary question, but what railroads made up "The Big 4"? -Justin
As a Californian, the big four are:
http://www.csrmf.org/explore-and-learn/railroad-history/the-transcontinental-railroad/the-big-four
Ken G Price My N-Scale Layout
Digitrax Super Empire Builder Radio System. South Valley Texas Railroad. SVTRR
N-Scale out west. 1996-1998 or so! UP, SP, Missouri Pacific, C&NW.
The CCC&StL was always referred to in print as the Big Four, never the Big 4. I agree with the comment that this and the LS&MS Ry are not fully appreciated by NYC enthusiasts. The forerunner of the CCC&StL was the very first railroad to arrive in Cleveland. Up until a few years ago, on the east bank of the Cuyahoga in the Flats, one could still see where the track from St. Louis joined the New York - Chicago main line. This historic spot is but feet from the site of Cleveland's first passenger station.
If the Big Four route still featured passenger service we northern Ohioans might know Columbus and Cincinnati better than we do New York and Chicago. I wonder if our tight-fisted GOP-dominated state legislature will ever think of funding trains to tie northern and southern Ohio together again.
Last thought: Those mighty Big Four steam locomotives must have operated at track-scorching speeds considering Ohio's topography.
I would think that one of the reasons that the Big Four and Michigan Central keep turning up just barely visible is that they were acquired by New York Central by means of majority control and a lease. Both railroads continued to exist as corporate entities right up to the Conrail takeover in 1976.
Having killed many an evening in the public library browsing through Moody's Transporation Manual, I came to the conclusion at a young age that Penn Central had to have one of the most complex and convoluted corporate structures that ever existed.
mudchickenAll the NYC/ Water Level Route bubbas ever talk about is the railroad east of the Allegheny molehills
If you're from "the city" there is no life beyond Albany, and even that is questionable...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
I knew that the people in Beantown considered anything west of the B&A to be out in the wilds; I was not aware that anyone had such a low opinion of life west of Albany.
I have a memory of seeing "Big 4" in the copy of a Guide from 1893 that I have; I hope to remember when I get back home Saturday to look this up.
Johnny
Very interesting stuff. Thanks for the links all.
Interesting that the railroad consisted of cities, not actual railroads.
DeggestyI knew that the people in Beantown considered anything west of the B&A to be out in the wilds; I was not aware that anyone had such a low opinion of life west of Albany.
Folks from "the city" consider Orange County (NY, not CA) "upstate." While I suppose that they are technically correct, it does cause me to say I'm from "northern New York" as opposed to "upstate."
One must remember that Albany is three hours from NYC, Syracuse is five hours, I live just over six hours away, and Buffalo is a full seven hour trip to the Big Apple. That's further away than either Boston or Washington, DC. I can be in Toronto faster than I can reach NYC.
Justin, back in the days about 100 and more years ago, it wasn't unusual for railroads to be named based on the cities they connected (Cleveland, Cincinnati, Chicago & St. Louis), the geographic features they reached (Chesapeake [Bay] & Ohio [River]), or their wildest aspirations (Toledo, Peoria & Western, Chicago, Rock Island & Pacific, St. Louis-San Francisco, or Midland Continental). The Big Four was probably an appellation given to the CCC&St.L by some astute PR person. Close to your home, the good old Monon Railroad was officially named the Chicago, Indianapolis & Louisville until about 1956, when they adopted the nickname as the actual name). Your other main line was the New York, Chicago & St. Louis (even though New York apparently referred to the state), nicknamed the Nickel Plate. And even four city names in one railroad has been done more than once: substitute "Pittsburgh" for "Cleveland" and you get the PCC&St.L, which was a predecessor of the Pennsylvania Railroad (this line became known as the "Panhandle"); the other big western Pennsy predecessor was another "all-city" railroad, the Pittsburgh, Fort Wayne & Chicago.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
The NW to SE portion of KB&S in Justin's backyard was CCC&StL.. (used to be fairly high speed in the day)
It was much more than just towns. Sad that it got so marginalized. (The name got my attention because it showed up everywhere on USGS quads, even though it folded into NYC by 1922)
The New York Central itself was born of an alphabet soup collection of small railroads, including the Mohawk & Hudson, Utica & Schenectady, Syracuse & Utica, Auburn & Syracuse, Auburn & Rochester, Tonawanda, and the Attica & Buffalo.
All of them are, of course, long lost, having been wrapped into Commodore Vanderbilt's Central by the late 1860's.
All WWII era railroads were birthed by a alphabet soup of predecessor smaller railroads. With the financial optimism and panics of the 19th and early 20th Centuries - road names came and went and got folded into larger names - which also came and went. The predecessor carriers of today's Class 1 number in the hundreds if not thousands.
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