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Are railroads behind the curve on technological innovation?

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Posted by gardendance on Tuesday, December 23, 2014 10:36 PM

corwinda

Those solar panels would be an easy target for thieves any time the car is sitting in a relatively secluded spot; especially at night.

Why would they be an easier target for thieves than any of the solar panels that are already on lots of structures, railroad related or not, which use solar panels specifically because those structures sit in relatively secluded spots? Does anybody have statistics on existing solar panel vandalism and theft?
Why would they be an easier target for thieves than the railcars' cargo?
 

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Posted by Wizlish on Tuesday, December 23, 2014 8:08 PM

AnthonyV
If the g-forces experienced by a railroad car are so high, how does any of the lading ever survive a trip?

It's not so much "g-force" as it is shock measured as acceleration (and denominated in g units).  Naturally the actual duration of the 'acceleration' is extremely short, or you would see pronounced motion (bouncing wheelsets, etc.).  Often what you see is the effect of shock on a comparatively light moving part (such as an instrumented wheelset, or the structure that is managed by the primary suspension.   

The results of shock on car lading in the longitudinal direction are well established -- look at the history of the Hydra-Cushion system for some further substantiation.  For the damage to lading to be significant, the amount of shock to the car structure is greater still.

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Posted by Wizlish on Tuesday, December 23, 2014 7:52 PM

schlimm
"Yes, but"...∞

That was cold. 

Deserved, but cold...  Embarrassed

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Posted by corwinda on Tuesday, December 23, 2014 7:34 PM

gardendance
I've long wondered why more rail, trucking and bus companies don't put electric solar panels on top of their vehicles. On my sailboat I have 1 panel of a 3 panel set that Harbor Freight sold $145, regular price is around $200, which gives me a bit of peace of mind that when I wake up one morning and realize I left the lights and stereo on all night that I'll be able to get the batteries recharged before the next sunset. So let's add lack of solar panels on rolling stock another item in the question of railroads possibly behind the technology curve.

Those solar panels would be an easy target for thieves any time the car is sitting in a relatively secluded spot; especially at night.

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Posted by Euclid on Tuesday, December 23, 2014 3:58 PM
As I understand this, you would transmit ECP control data wireless.  Then you would carry a battery on each car, and generate the battery charge on each car.  This electrical power would transmit the data; and also, power the solenoid valves on each car that would control the air functions.  This way, there would be no electric/electronic cable to connect and maintain.
I suspect that the power needed to transmit data is very small compared to the power needed to operate all of brake solenoids on each car throughout the train.  Having each car generating its power and storing it in a battery seems overly fussy for a railcar.  But I suppose anything can be done.   
What is the preferred way of handling this data/power function in today’s thinking about ECP?
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Posted by edblysard on Tuesday, December 23, 2014 3:31 PM

Whaaaat?

You made a funny!

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Posted by schlimm on Tuesday, December 23, 2014 3:06 PM

Wizlish

 

 
oltmannd
The only point I was trying to make was that if my mouse can talk to my computer, there's no reason one freight car can't talk to the next via radio.

 

But the situation is more complex than that.  If 'one freight car can't talk to the next by radio', for whatever reason, in a system relying on short-range intercar links, it can't talk to any car from there on back in the train's consist, either.  If that doesn't make you think about a certain angle cock on a certain New Haven train going to Washington...

Dumb radio links are also, as noted, indiscriminate about what they are actually communicating with.  Imagine you have two mice communicating with the same receiver on your computer.  And you are running a safety-critical application on that computer.  Now hand the mice to two separate people doing radically different things...

 

 

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Posted by Wizlish on Tuesday, December 23, 2014 1:36 PM

oltmannd
The only point I was trying to make was that if my mouse can talk to my computer, there's no reason one freight car can't talk to the next via radio.

But the situation is more complex than that.  If 'one freight car can't talk to the next by radio', for whatever reason, in a system relying on short-range intercar links, it can't talk to any car from there on back in the train's consist, either.  If that doesn't make you think about a certain angle cock on a certain New Haven train going to Washington...

Dumb radio links are also, as noted, indiscriminate about what they are actually communicating with.  Imagine you have two mice communicating with the same receiver on your computer.  And you are running a safety-critical application on that computer.  Now hand the mice to two separate people doing radically different things...

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Posted by Euclid on Tuesday, December 23, 2014 12:16 PM

oltmannd

2. Robust, standard data trainline.  Really need one. Don't have one yet.  I wonder if a low power, directional radio based system might be better than wires.

What is lacking in the ECP wire trainline?  I recall reading that there were problems in getting sufficiently robust connectors.  Is that the only problem? 

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Posted by oltmannd on Tuesday, December 23, 2014 11:53 AM

Wizlish
Of course Bluetooth won't solve the problem -- it's explicitly a short-range protocol!  (In any case, its methods for connection and data security are fundamentally ill-suited for railroad data applications, and while they could be patched it makes little sense to adapt them when there are better (and with cheaper enabling technology!) RF systems available.)

The only point I was trying to make was that if my mouse can talk to my computer, there's no reason one freight car can't talk to the next via radio.  

Wizlish
In my opinion, it makes far better sense to use mechanical charging power (vibration/TAC or generators like Timken's bearing) than relatively fragile solar panels that only work well when clean and in good sun, and would probably require fairly long armored leads down to where the system batteries are located on a particular car.  Also in my opinion, the required panel size to provide power to drive ECP valves and such would be excessively high.  In the event of critically low battery the car itself would call for attention... over a period of weeks or even months... so having the passive assurance of solar charging might not be as necessary as in many 'unattended' applications.

Cars spend more than 80% of their time sitting - often weeks at a time.  If you can keep the battery close to fully charged before idle periods you'd be okay.  But, you  really don't want to regularly pull cars with inoperative brakes.  It would be looking at those Herzog cars...

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Posted by oltmannd on Tuesday, December 23, 2014 11:44 AM

Buslist

 

 
oltmannd

 

 
 
Each car only needs to talk to the next.  Bluetooth range would do it.  Just needs a directional antenna.
 

 

 

IIRC GE Harris had problems linking the cars in a train and not talking to cars on adjacent tracks. Their radio was strong enough the carry about 3 cars in either direction (GE Harris felt that going only to the next car was not sufficiently reliable). As I said this was 15 years ago and I'm sure some technology advances might be applicable, but I'm not sure Bluetooth solves the problem.

Another issue was on board power. This meant a generator (Timken has one in a roller bearing they'd be glad to sell you)  and a battery. Both of which were seen as problematic by the Braking committee members.

 

No pain, no gain. You can't get a better outcome without doing something different.  The braking committee is the one to make it happen, not the ones who should be figuring out if it's worth it or not.  The scope is bigger than just braking performance.   

It only becomes worth tackling the pain if you can see through to the end game.  If you think the "end game" is merely slack action control and graduated release, then why bother.

Freight cars with batteries and solar panels?  Herzog ballast train anyone?

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Posted by Wizlish on Tuesday, December 23, 2014 9:58 AM

BaltACD
The 24/7/365 high impact nature of the rail environment with the expectations of NO MAINTENANCE between inspections required by law is a tough nut for 'new technology' to crack.

Here's the thing that's so important (IMHO).  It's really the failure of the technological innovators to match actual railroad needs that's the problem ... not so much the railroads being hidebound about the possibilities of new or kewl technologies.

We recently had a thread about laser ablation of leaves, etc. on tracks.  There are three separate generations of laser involved in this (discriminatable by year range) -- each of which was virtually cutting-edge in its application.  The first generation was manifestly unsuited to a railroad environment, even a test environment.  The second wave (diode-pumped YAG) was still too fragile, both in the laser design and the optics.  The current version, probably using disk lasers and modern optics, MIGHT be robust and efficient enough to work for the intended purpose ... now come the unintended consequences of using high power in short bursts on organic material -- I'll be interested to see the metallurgical changes in the railhead contact patch, for instance...

Similar achievement of enabling technology in first-generation dieselization, and perhaps to an even greater extent in some subsequent generations -- I think the history of 'midtrain power' from the early Southern experiments up to DPU is an interesting case to examine.

This is the 21st Century, and technologies develop and evolve much faster (and perhaps cheaper when wisely approached) with each passing year.  What needs to happen is for the 'wizards' doing research to accommodate railroad conditions and actual railroad needs as fundamental elements in systems design, rather than seeing nails that their hammers are supposed to be good at driving.

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Posted by BaltACD on Tuesday, December 23, 2014 9:43 AM

The 24/7/365 high impact nature of the rail environment with the expectations of NO MAINTENANCE between inspections required by law is a tough nut for 'new technology' to crack.

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Posted by Wizlish on Tuesday, December 23, 2014 9:21 AM

Buslist
IIRC GE Harris had problems linking the cars in a train and not talking to cars on adjacent tracks. Their radio was strong enough the carry about 3 cars in either direction (GE Harris felt that going only to the next car was not sufficiently reliable). As I said this was 15 years ago and I'm sure some technology advances might be applicable, but I'm not sure Bluetooth solves the problem.

Of course Bluetooth won't solve the problem -- it's explicitly a short-range protocol!  (In any case, its methods for connection and data security are fundamentally ill-suited for railroad data applications, and while they could be patched it makes little sense to adapt them when there are better (and with cheaper enabling technology!) RF systems available.)

One thing that is practical now is to bundle intelligence into a very cheap on-car module.  Something as simple as a multiaxis vibration detector on a car truck can easily handle identifying the car it's on, verifying brake-system state and condition and interconnection integrity, and controlling communications with other electronic systems on the car, in the train, and in wayside or connected systems.  Power management (both of the equipment and of the RF links) has made enormous strides in OTS electronics (mostly in the personal-device markets) in the last few years.  It's common now to look at active power drains in the microamp range for equipment that would have effectively zero full-power-on latency in a typical ECP railroad-braking application.

In my opinion, it makes far better sense to use mechanical charging power (vibration/TAC or generators like Timken's bearing) than relatively fragile solar panels that only work well when clean and in good sun, and would probably require fairly long armored leads down to where the system batteries are located on a particular car.  Also in my opinion, the required panel size to provide power to drive ECP valves and such would be excessively high.  In the event of critically low battery the car itself would call for attention... over a period of weeks or even months... so having the passive assurance of solar charging might not be as necessary as in many 'unattended' applications.

The issue of discriminating consists on adjacent tracks is best handled (in my humble opinion) with distributed intelligence.  I assume that the RF has long enough effective range to bridge any 'dumb' cars in the train -- while there might be some Government mandate to provide wired or wireless-antenna passthrough (analogous to the compatibility air hoses used during the introduction of air braking) it should be obvious that provision of such a thing can NOT be a precondition to reliable use of ECP features on a train.  And if the ECP features cannot be reliable to the train crew, they are more likely than not to become a source of danger or failure, sooner or later.

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Posted by gardendance on Tuesday, December 23, 2014 8:19 AM

BaltACD

Is your mouse 9000+ feet from your computer around 3 curves and over two hills and moving?

If you're implying that adjacent train parts are moving significantly relative to each other something's extremely wrong, and I'd hope even the simplest wireless control system would at least try to communicate a warning.

Buslist

IIRC GE Harris had problems linking the cars in a train and not talking to cars on adjacent tracks. Their radio was strong enough the carry about 3 cars in either direction (GE Harris felt that going only to the next car was not sufficiently reliable). As I said this was 15 years ago and I'm sure some technology advances might be applicable, but I'm not sure Bluetooth solves the problem.

I would have thought even 15 years ago there must have been reasonable technology that should have let cars broadcast enough identifying info for the system to tell which ones belonged to a particular train, and not a train on an adjacent track.

Buslist

Another issue was on board power. This meant a generator (Timken has one in a roller bearing they'd be glad to sell you)  and a battery. Both of which were seen as problematic by the Braking committee members.

I've long wondered why more rail, trucking and bus companies don't put electric solar panels on top of their vehicles. On my sailboat I have 1 panel of a 3 panel set that Harbor Freight sold $145, regular price is around $200, which gives me a bit of peace of mind that when I wake up one morning and realize I left the lights and stereo on all night that I'll be able to get the batteries recharged before the next sunset.
So let's add lack of solar panels on rolling stock another item in the question of railroads possibly behind the technology curve.

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Posted by Buslist on Tuesday, December 23, 2014 7:46 AM

oltmannd

 

 
 
Each car only needs to talk to the next.  Bluetooth range would do it.  Just needs a directional antenna.
 

IIRC GE Harris had problems linking the cars in a train and not talking to cars on adjacent tracks. Their radio was strong enough the carry about 3 cars in either direction (GE Harris felt that going only to the next car was not sufficiently reliable). As I said this was 15 years ago and I'm sure some technology advances might be applicable, but I'm not sure Bluetooth solves the problem.

Another issue was on board power. This meant a generator (Timken has one in a roller bearing they'd be glad to sell you)  and a battery. Both of which were seen as problematic by the Braking committee members.

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Posted by schlimm on Tuesday, December 23, 2014 7:33 AM

Reading this thread provides a clear answer to the title question and the major reason why that is so.   It isn't because the technology is lacking or lagging.

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Posted by Euclid on Tuesday, December 23, 2014 6:51 AM

jeffhergert

I think that one reason ECP isn't being more actively pursued is that the railroads (or some departments) feel it would encourage or require stretch/power braking to get the most out of it.  That's the last thing they want you to do, behind throttle modulation and dynamic braking.  (Except in emergency or near emergency situations.) 

Jeff 

 

 

Jeff,
Those are interesting thoughts.  I am curious as to what you mean as to the reason why some departments are concerned that ECP would require power braking to get the most out of it.  Can you explain why that is?
I assume that power braking is going out of favor due to fuel cost.  But I don’t recall the topic being discussed here.  What is the current feeling about power braking, pros and cons, etc.?

 

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Posted by oltmannd on Tuesday, December 23, 2014 5:59 AM

jeffhergert

I think that one reason ECP isn't being more actively pursued is that the railroads (or some departments) feel it would encourage or require stretch/power braking to get the most out of it.  That's the last thing they want you to do, behind throttle modulation and dynamic braking.  (Except in emergency or near emergency situations.) 

Jeff 

 

I hear you.  Some railroads would have you think that they are in the business of saving fuel to the exclusion of being in the transportation business.  Turning assets is the name of the game - burning a bit more fuel might be a good trade-off.

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Posted by oltmannd on Tuesday, December 23, 2014 5:55 AM

BaltACD

 

 
oltmannd
 
Buslist
As to radio ECP GE Harris tried desperately to get one to work and even threatened to sue the AAR if it wasn't included in the ECP spec. They failed miserably. But all this was 15+ years ago, so I'm sure some technology advancements might be relevant.

 

Interesting!  I can get my mouse to talk to my computer by radio...you'd think....

 

 

 

Is your mouse 9000+ feet from your computer around 3 curves and over two hills and moving?

 

Each car only needs to talk to the next.  Bluetooth range would do it.  Just needs a directional antenna.

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Posted by Wizlish on Monday, December 22, 2014 10:44 PM

BaltACD
Is your mouse 9000+ feet from your computer around 3 curves and over two hills and moving?

And in the rain, pelted by gravel, having been maintained indifferently for umpteen years?

 

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Posted by BaltACD on Monday, December 22, 2014 3:38 PM

oltmannd
 
Buslist
As to radio ECP GE Harris tried desperately to get one to work and even threatened to sue the AAR if it wasn't included in the ECP spec. They failed miserably. But all this was 15+ years ago, so I'm sure some technology advancements might be relevant.

 

Interesting!  I can get my mouse to talk to my computer by radio...you'd think....

 

Is your mouse 9000+ feet from your computer around 3 curves and over two hills and moving?

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Posted by Euclid on Monday, December 22, 2014 3:10 PM

.

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Posted by jeffhergert on Monday, December 22, 2014 2:36 PM

I think that one reason ECP isn't being more actively pursued is that the railroads (or some departments) feel it would encourage or require stretch/power braking to get the most out of it.  That's the last thing they want you to do, behind throttle modulation and dynamic braking.  (Except in emergency or near emergency situations.) 

Jeff 

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Posted by oltmannd on Monday, December 22, 2014 2:21 PM

Buslist
But as I said before there was no clear and accepted migration path and the more uniform application of brakes was more cheaply accomplished with radio repeater air brake cars and DPU.

Except the many, many places can't run DPU in the east because of train length and stuff in the way.... and all those ancillary benefits not counted, like retiring every hot box detector and never having a burn off again (for starters...)

And, getting to a point where you don't have to tie down handbrakes manually, or have "kickers", or handbrakes left on sliding wheels flat and all the other "stuff" that happens every day that we just call "railroading" and don't think twice about it.

Or derailments from hunting or stuck trucks, or getting pickups and setouts down to 20 minutes instead of an hour and a half, or commisioning a DPU set taking minutes instead of an hour.

 

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Posted by oltmannd on Monday, December 22, 2014 2:14 PM

Buslist
As to radio ECP GE Harris tried desperately to get one to work and even threatened to sue the AAR if it wasn't included in the ECP spec. They failed miserably. But all this was 15+ years ago, so I'm sure some technology advancements might be relevant.

Interesting!  I can get my mouse to talk to my computer by radio...you'd think....

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Posted by oltmannd on Monday, December 22, 2014 2:12 PM

Euclid
I don’t expect ECP will ever by applied to loose-car railroading.   

That's where the greatest benefit is....

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Posted by Buslist on Monday, December 22, 2014 11:05 AM

oltmannd

The whole problem of doing anything different with the braking system on freight cars comes down to the whole issue of power and control.

Where do you get the power to apply the brakes?  

 

The hurdles are:

2. Robust, standard data trainline.  Really need one. Don't have one yet.  I wonder if a low power, directional radio based system might be better than wires.

3. Hidebound AAR process for setting standards.  The railroad folk are good people, but they don't really trust each other, fully.  There have been too many instances in the past were one road "got one over" on another.

4. Lack of understanding of all the potential benefits and ancillary benefits.  "It's just an airbrake system, right?  We already have on of those that works just fine." Actually, no and no.

5. Too many other things to do.  Install PTC.  Fight or push mergers.  Quarrel with Amtrak.  Figure out how to move oil trains....

I can't think of a single piece of technology that would do more to improve freight car velocity than EPC braking.  I wish the industry was working a bit harder to make it a reality.

 

 

 

Some issues here, as to number 2 there is in fact a very robust data train line in the AAR ECP spec. Proven over and over again, the brakeing data only requires about 30% of the coms capacity so lots of room for car health data and, as some have suggested, MU info to get rid of the 27 pin ( talk about outdated) connector and radio DP. As to radio ECP GE Harris tried desperately to get one to work and even threatened to sue the AAR if it wasn't included in the ECP spec. They failed miserably. But all this was 15+ years ago, so I'm sure some technology advancements might be relevant.

 

Relevant to #3 I don't think this was an issue as the primary proponent was a CSX guy even though most of the benefit went to the western roads (graduated release).

 

For #4, lots of AAR research $ went to study the benefits and I think they were well understood around 2000. But as I said before there was no clear and accepted migration path and the more uniform application of brakes was more cheaply accomplished with radio repeater air brake cars and DPU. Last I knew there were 2 ECP test trains in operation, one from the PRB, and one from the Mon Valley in PA to a power plant in the same state on I believe, your railroad, perhaps you know more.

 

#5 is dead on!

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Posted by Euclid on Monday, December 22, 2014 10:53 AM

Buslist
 
Euclid
 

2)      Make it about public safety and convince the regulators, so they will force the railroads to buy it.

 

 

 

 

 

Actually that probably wouldn't cut it either as even FRA regs are subject to a cost/benefit analysis which I don't believe this would pass. To avoid this you would need a new a law as with PTC. I don't think the in coming business friendly Congress is up for that.

 

 

I never said it would be easy.   Incidentally, I agree with others about ECP brakes being of great benefit, however, I think that the standardization of railroading forever precludes the adoption of ECP brakes.  Not only is the cost of the conversion high, but the cost of the interim compatibility is the straw that breaks the camel’s back when it comes to ECP.  I don’t expect ECP will ever by applied to loose-car railroading.   

 

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Posted by Buslist on Monday, December 22, 2014 10:35 AM

Euclid
 

2)      Make it about public safety and convince the regulators, so they will force the railroads to buy it.

 

 

 

Actually that probably wouldn't cut it either as even FRA regs are subject to a cost/benefit analysis which I don't believe this would pass. To avoid this you would need a new a law as with PTC. I don't think the in coming business friendly Congress is up for that.

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