BroadwayLionLION once took a course in economics 101. It is not about money. It is about compliance with a perceived need expressed by a government agency. Politicians are a few steps lower than reporters, but they do know one thing: How to get elected, ergo, what flies with the public and what does not. Railroad will listen to government on this, because 1) public relations is a good thing, 2) smoother operation of railroad is good thing. 3) keeping employees alive is a good thing, 4) good union and labor relations is a good thing, --(And just what does the union want on this issue)-- and 5) reinvestment of funds in infrastructure rides well with the public and with stockholders, and besides it is tax deductible. It is a win-win situation to do it with irrelevant costs on the other side. Besides, half of the infrastructure is there already (signals) and signals can be upgraded and the expense written off to PTC installation, and it is one more step on the road to full automation of some trains. ROAR
Railroad will listen to government on this, because 1) public relations is a good thing, 2) smoother operation of railroad is good thing. 3) keeping employees alive is a good thing, 4) good union and labor relations is a good thing, --(And just what does the union want on this issue)-- and 5) reinvestment of funds in infrastructure rides well with the public and with stockholders, and besides it is tax deductible.
It is a win-win situation to do it with irrelevant costs on the other side. Besides, half of the infrastructure is there already (signals) and signals can be upgraded and the expense written off to PTC installation, and it is one more step on the road to full automation of some trains.
ROAR
From the present day perspective, PTC seems like an item that will one day be completed, like building a bridge or skyscraper. But in reality, PTC may not be a single item. Instead it may be a process that has no final objective or ending. Even from our present day view, the presumed endpoint is unknown. There is a deadline, but it seems obvious that it cannot be met. As far as I know, no new deadline has been set.
Extending the deadline will give more time to get the job done, but it also gives more time for the art to evolve. Portions of the system may be obsolete before it is finished. The installation may have a hard time keeping up with the advancing technology. Cost overrun is likely to be huge, and that will pose the prospect of making radical changes in direction in the ever-evolving installation.
So, I don’t think PTC will be like an item that is one day finished. It will be like a process that is ever becoming. And somewhere along the road of that process is full automation. And the road probably does not even end there. The entire railroad system is likely to evolve rapidly in many different ways that will include big changes in operation.
Actually, the phrase in question, from Paul North, was "Huge asteroids striking the earth and annihilating us all" but I guess that got lost in your sea of sarcasm. But the real point (which the railroaders seem to be in denial of), is there are many collisions, many of which are preventable by PTC. Why the fear? Thinking this leads to remote or auto pilot trains on the road? Nowhere else that has advanced train control has moved in that direction.
http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/2013/scott_city_mo/Chaffee_MO_10-Day_Preliminary%20Report_20130607.pdf
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Actually, we get hit all the time, only so far they are tiny bits and pieces of leftovers….
In galactic terms, Shoemaker Levy was just next door, and some of the pieces there were 1 +/- mile in dia.
Back in Sept. 2012, it got whacked again, so the zero incident probability you suggest is getting less likely…what we really need is PAT, Positive Asteroid Control….or maybe we can call it PAD, Positive Asteroid Deflection…
Maybe we could use Creative Repositioning of Asteroid Path….kinda like PTC, sounds great, you can hide it under a lot of paper, but it really smells bad.
23 17 46 11
Paul_D_North_JrTo a limited extent, the intellectual issue and analysis seems similar to the decision of spending the money to prevent an asteroid from striking the Earth and annihilating us all - very small risk of a huge loss, vs. a certainty of high expenses to perhaps prevent it.
That would be true if the reality were so small a probability. The question actually is: How many train collisions have occurred in the past 10 years that could have been prevented by PTC? Somebody might know,(I believe about 8 in the past 30 months) but I am certain it was many more than the zero incidence of "huge asteroids striking the earth and annihilating us all."
Paul_D_North_Jr Mr. Lion, most of the same points could be said about a requirement to install fire sprinklers in your home, or a business, or a social club, etc. Suppose the cost would be $11,000 for each $500 of benefits, such as fire insurance premium savings, and/ or the avoided future costs of fire damage. More scaled up, having to spend $2.2 million for each $100,000 of savings in potential fire damage - when the house itself is worth only $300,000. How would you - or anyone else - feel about that ? - Paul North.
Mr. Lion, most of the same points could be said about a requirement to install fire sprinklers in your home, or a business, or a social club, etc. Suppose the cost would be $11,000 for each $500 of benefits, such as fire insurance premium savings, and/ or the avoided future costs of fire damage. More scaled up, having to spend $2.2 million for each $100,000 of savings in potential fire damage - when the house itself is worth only $300,000. How would you - or anyone else - feel about that ?
- Paul North.
WE *did* install fire sprinklers in most of our buildings. We like the idea very much. Ours is a complicated installation since some floors/wings in this building is not heated. We are glad to have them, the price was within our means, and we sleep a lot better at night.
The "Old Guest House" was torn down rather than to bring it into compliance. It was not worth putting any money into it.
LION (being an old NYC building superintendent) *likes* the idea of fire sprinklers. I look at floods, hurricanes and tornadoes, and I say "The Building must be able to protect the people in it."
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
Why didn't they fight it more? Maybe they didn't really want to?
Something that has been mentioned in passing but not really developed (unless I missed it while quickly scanning the thread-note to self: don't open 7 page threads when you're getting ready to go to work.)...RR's have been resarching PTC for years and probably have confidence in the system. With the capital costs involved and the long term payback required, everyone is hesitant to be first to commit to something so vast and expensive. But, with a pending industrywide mandate, no one is going to be any worse off for their installation nor worse off for not making the investment while their competitor(s) did. It's like electrification. Even the most limited initial installation is going to tie up a lot of capital. If everyone makes the same move at the same time, no one is relatively at greater risk and everyone gets to share the benefits.
Paul_D_North_Jr The key element would be comparison between the probabilistic assessments of the range of likely costs of: Being pro-active and installing the then-Best Available Technology (ATC, ATS, etc.) on all of the many lines that are now required, and perhaps having to upgrade it a few times and ultimately replace it with PTC - though on a more measured pace - at some time in the future; vs. The mad rush that we have now, with a 22:1 (negative) cost / benefit ratio. To a limited extent, the intellectual issue and analysis seems similar to the decision of spending the money to prevent an asteroid from striking the Earth and annihilating us all - very small risk of a huge loss, vs. a certainty of high expenses to perhaps prevent it.
The key element would be comparison between the probabilistic assessments of the range of likely costs of:
To a limited extent, the intellectual issue and analysis seems similar to the decision of spending the money to prevent an asteroid from striking the Earth and annihilating us all - very small risk of a huge loss, vs. a certainty of high expenses to perhaps prevent it.
LION once took a course in economics 101. It is not about money. It is about compliance with a perceived need expressed by a government agency. Politicians are a few steps lower than reporters, but they do know one thing: How to get elected, ergo, what flies with the public and what does not.
oltmannd schlimm My question is this: Did they do those 'other things" In terms of train control, not much. schlimm and if not, what was preventing them from doing so prior to the passing of the PTC mandate? Nothing, and doing something - or having a plan for something - might have headed PTC off. They basically messed around with PTC-like trials, expanded cab signalling in a very few spots and that was it. But, you have to remember, capital money was, and is, tight so it would have been borderline irresponsible to spend it on something with no payback to the RR. Of course, now, they have to pay that, and a whole lot more.
schlimm My question is this: Did they do those 'other things"
schlimm and if not, what was preventing them from doing so prior to the passing of the PTC mandate?
Of course, now, they have to pay that, and a whole lot more.
BroadwayLion BaltACDA train that is not moving is a virtual derailment - the line is blocked and nothing else will move until the stopped train moves. Railroaders get trains moving, while lions stay home in bed. Solution of LION. 1) Pull the train that he has out of there, Park it on next siding 2) go back to broken half with new coupler, fix and pull it to the siding. 3) can put train back together again. ROAR
BaltACDA train that is not moving is a virtual derailment - the line is blocked and nothing else will move until the stopped train moves. Railroaders get trains moving, while lions stay home in bed.
Solution of LION.
1) Pull the train that he has out of there, Park it on next siding
2) go back to broken half with new coupler, fix and pull it to the siding.
3) can put train back together again.
1. Engineer drops off knuckle from engine. (Assuming extra knuckles available on engine.)
2. Pulls head end of train, with conductor riding rear car up to knuckle.
3. Conductor stops rear car at knuckle.
4. If rear car the one with the broken one, could replace right away.
5. If head car of rear section needs knuckle replaced, conductor places knuckle on rear car (Almost all cars have at least a crossover platform where a knuckle could ride.) and shoves back to train. Repairs knuckle.
Optional 5A. Repeats 1 through 5 because engineer dropped off wrong knuckle.
6. Recouple train and air hose. Cut the air in and hope EOT shows air all the way through. If not, more problems.
Jeff
zugmannZugmann loves how all these experts assume road trains just go from A to B with no work in between. Oh yeah, and when you reach "B", the work is done. No yarding the train or anything.
LION is not expert, but him likes to talk. Talking LIONS are not bad. When they stop talking they start stalking, and Wildebeests try to make themselves scarce.
When LION posts something "funny" him is probably looking for an answer. OK, then! What *do* you do when your train is split in two, the night is dark, the snow is deep, the winds are fierce (the only kinds of winds that we have in North Dakota) and the temperatures are twenty degrees below zero.
No doubt about it, the coupler is broken 3500 feet back. What is a conductor to do? How can he carry a 70 - 100 pound knuckle back through the drifts. Sometimes even Superman must wait for help.
erikem edblysard Ohhh, jet packs, yeah! Ever since the first “Lost in Space” season aired way back in the day, I have always wanted one…I know they are useless, don’t fly far or long, but still….yeah! It was the third episode that first featured the jet pack - though I was intrigued by the jet/rocket platforms on Johnny Quest episode about a year earlier (which were loosely based on a ducted prop flying platform developed for the Army)... Tis scary to think that Bill Mumy will be turning 60 early next year. - Erik -
edblysard Ohhh, jet packs, yeah! Ever since the first “Lost in Space” season aired way back in the day, I have always wanted one…I know they are useless, don’t fly far or long, but still….yeah!
Ohhh, jet packs, yeah!
Ever since the first “Lost in Space” season aired way back in the day, I have always wanted one…I know they are useless, don’t fly far or long, but still….yeah!
It was the third episode that first featured the jet pack - though I was intrigued by the jet/rocket platforms on Johnny Quest episode about a year earlier (which were loosely based on a ducted prop flying platform developed for the Army)... Tis scary to think that Bill Mumy will be turning 60 early next year.
- Erik
-
Yeah,
Johnny Quest had the coolest stuff out there.
Will Robinson is 60?
That means Penny is….OMG!
tree68 zugmann Give them helicopters. Or jet packs. Isn't there a Canadian line that's already doing that? One man crew, only way to bring in help is by air.
zugmann Give them helicopters. Or jet packs.
They will improve the metalergy of couplers (llike Roles Royce rear axles) so they NEVER break, and brakes will be controlled electronically with a radio receiver in each freight car so there will be no need for hoses (air-tanks pressurized at terminals) and THEN we will have automatic operaion.
The UP already has people at based at some terminals that are sent out to help trains in distress. On the former CNW side they are called MICs (Mechanic In Charge), on the former UP side they are called Foreman Generals. They are can make minor mechanical repairs, car or locomotive.
Usually for minor problems, you have to be fairly close to a terminal to have them sent out. For more serious problems they might sent them out further. The really serious problems get the full-fledged car men who are better equipped.
Most of the time it seems when they do send out the MIC/Foreman General, the conductor has already rectified the problem. At least they can give the condr a ride back to the head end.
zugmann Bucyrus The knuckle & hose contractors will have trucks that carry special rubber track vehicles that can run alongside the track at a brisk speed, starting from the nearest crossing. Screw that. Give them helicopters. Or jet packs.
Bucyrus The knuckle & hose contractors will have trucks that carry special rubber track vehicles that can run alongside the track at a brisk speed, starting from the nearest crossing.
The knuckle & hose contractors will have trucks that carry special rubber track vehicles that can run alongside the track at a brisk speed, starting from the nearest crossing.
Screw that. Give them helicopters. Or jet packs.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Give them helicopters. Or jet packs.
Isn't there a Canadian line that's already doing that? One man crew, only way to bring in help is by air.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
They'll probably hire PTI vans, which will wander off into the darkness and find a place for the minimum wage driver to hide and sleep.
BaltACD BucyrusAs the saying goes: What comes next? They will probably have to hire the services of some independent, roving, knuckle and hose contractors. Which might work - IF, so many miles of track were not accessable - except by rail!
BucyrusAs the saying goes: What comes next? They will probably have to hire the services of some independent, roving, knuckle and hose contractors.
They will probably have to hire the services of some independent, roving, knuckle and hose contractors.
Which might work - IF, so many miles of track were not accessable - except by rail!
Bucyrus As the saying goes: What comes next? They will probably have to hire the services of some independent, roving, knuckle and hose contractors.
As the saying goes: What comes next?
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
schlimm Seriously What else do you expect from someone who thinks his little subway model is real, talks in the imperial we and 3rd person and pretends he is a lion?
Seriously What else do you expect from someone who thinks his little subway model is real, talks in the imperial we and 3rd person and pretends he is a lion?
Zugmann doesn't know.
zugmann So then what do we do? Let the train sit out there by itself in 3 pieces until the weather warms up? Just build a new track around it? As the saying goes: What comes next? Zugmann loves how all these experts assume road trains just go from A to B with no work in between. Oh yeah, and when you reach "B", the work is done. No yarding the train or anything.
So then what do we do? Let the train sit out there by itself in 3 pieces until the weather warms up?
Just build a new track around it?
Zugmann loves how all these experts assume road trains just go from A to B with no work in between. Oh yeah, and when you reach "B", the work is done. No yarding the train or anything.
zugmann BaltACDCan the Lion fix a burst air hose and a couple of broken knuckle caused by it 1 mile from the middle of nowhere at O Dark Thiry - with the ambiant at -30 and 30 MPH wind added in - with a crewless train. As the saying goes: What comes next? They will probably have to hire the services of some independent, roving, knuckle and hose contractors.
BaltACDCan the Lion fix a burst air hose and a couple of broken knuckle caused by it 1 mile from the middle of nowhere at O Dark Thiry - with the ambiant at -30 and 30 MPH wind added in - with a crewless train.
BroadwayLion BaltACDCan the Lion fix a burst air hose and a couple of broken knuckle caused by it 1 mile from the middle of nowhere at O Dark Thiry - with the ambiant at -30 and 30 MPH wind added in - with a crewless train. LION cannot do this. Sometimes it is not safe for you to do that out here either. You got a mile long train in the middle of the night, with 12-18" of snow swirling around the tracks and temps down in the -20s. Yo are going to walk through the drifts looking for the problem, then have to walk back to the locomotive to get a 100# coupler and carry that back to the place where you need it. NOT SAFE TO DO THAT! Yup. that is hard work, and sometimes YOU should not be out there either. ROAR
LION cannot do this. Sometimes it is not safe for you to do that out here either. You got a mile long train in the middle of the night, with 12-18" of snow swirling around the tracks and temps down in the -20s. Yo are going to walk through the drifts looking for the problem, then have to walk back to the locomotive to get a 100# coupler and carry that back to the place where you need it.
NOT SAFE TO DO THAT!
Yup. that is hard work, and sometimes YOU should not be out there either.
BroadwayLionThey do not need pilots on aircraft any more, but they still use them on airliners.
Then why do they operate the planes on take-offs and landings? Union rules? Why does the military bother with pilots on their aircraft (except the drones)? For fun? Union rules?
BucyrusYou should ask your conductor friend how the BNSF will replace knuckles and air hoses without any crew on the train. That seems to be an insurmoutable problem.
LION knows not the answer. He (conductor-friend) was presuming that they would just send a "brakeman" or something with the train. Just to mind things and not to operate it. He thought they were trying to break the union (some people can be so paranoid) LION knows not the answers, but you can bet that they (whoever "they" are) looking at these things. They do not need pilots on aircraft any more, but they still use them on airliners.
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