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Wake Up and Haul the Bacon

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, June 2, 2013 10:22 AM

Ihit.just ranslated the question of Kosher food in freight cars and my answer to two of our really top students, and continued with your little green-men story.   It was a 100% hit.    Todah Rabbah, thanks a lot.

And I larned that Alien in Hebrew is Alien, when refering to men from space, Mars or any more distant location. 

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, June 2, 2013 10:05 AM

 As a Rabbinical student in an Orthodox Yeshiva, I simply wish to point out that any food container, regardless of what it has been previously used for, can be made Kosher by thorough cleaning under the supervision of a qualified Rabbi.   Not any Rabbi, but one that has been qualified by a Beit Din ("house of rules") of three already qualified Rabbis.  The Hebrew term for such a Rabbi is "Mashgiyah."   He is the one who supervises the kitchen, by regular inspections, of Kosher restaurants, growers, wine producers, wisky makers, etc.  Any tank-car or freight car or container loading location can in the USA can probably locate such a Rabbi within a one or two-hour drive.   The profession of being a Mashgiyah  is as specialized as the profession of being a "Moel," a Rabbi who does circumcisions, with detailed rules.   So any frieght car that can be cleaned thoroughly can be made Kosher, regardless of previous history of lading.

And yes, a plate or fork that can be cleaned thoroughly (and this excludes certain types of ceramics, and of course paper) that  had contact with pork can be made Kosher by thorough cleaniing.  Some ultra-Orthodox might still not accept it if they knew, however.  My Yeshiva is not Ultra-Orthodox, although we have one teacher who teaches their point of view.   I won't fail to ask him that question.

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Posted by schlimm on Sunday, June 2, 2013 9:47 AM

China and Chinese companies have a lot of cash looking to be invested.  seems to me someone there thought Smithfield was a good investment.  Whether the production is exported or stays here is irrelevant.  If  Warren Buffet  or D. Trump bought Smithfield, would there be so many questions raised?

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Posted by Anonymous on Sunday, June 2, 2013 9:43 AM

I understand that the Chinese market for pork is undersupplied, so the acquisition of Smithfield would help offset the supply shortfall in China.  I don’t know how the Chinese pork undersupply compares with the Smithfield production capability.

If the deal is finalized, would Smithfield’s entire production go to China, or would Smithfield simply expand to serve both the U.S. and Chinese markets? 

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Posted by John WR on Sunday, June 2, 2013 9:41 AM

edblysard

Smithville has been exporting to a Chinese distributor for many many years, as has Tyson Foods with it chicken.

Smithville offered itself for sale in a several billion dollar deal, the Chinese took it.

Ed,  

You sum it up well.  And, at this time, I see no reason to believe that if the sale goes through these things will change.  Of course over time all things change.  However, my skills do not include clairvoyance and I would not be inclined to predict what or when the changes may be.  

John

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Posted by edblysard on Sunday, June 2, 2013 5:27 AM

Bucyrus

I don't understand why kosher has to be a showstopper here.  We are only talking about the backhaul empties from the pork shipment.  Can't they be filled with non-kosher food for the backhaul?

And why would China want to buy a pork plant in the U.S.?  What would be the financial incentive for them to own the U.S. based plant?  Why don't they just buy the pork and not own the plant?

Smithville has been exporting to a Chinese distributor for many many years, as has Tyson Foods with it chicken.

Smithville offered itself for sale in a several billion dollar deal, the Chinese took it.

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Posted by John WR on Sunday, June 2, 2013 12:13 AM

Semper Vaporo

As for back-hauling 'non-Kosher'... to the non-Jewish/non-Muslim/etc. it seems to be a non-issue, but I would ask you if you would mind buying milk from a company that used the same tank trucks to back-haul sewage... hey you can steam clean it and it may be germ free, but the "idea" is somehow objectionable to many people... we tend to want some intermediary step to move the disgusting part a couple of steps away through some "natural" process and "time".  Regardless, to those of certain religions, there is a REQUIREMENT that must be met and that settles the argument.

That is certainly a valid point.  I used to work with a person who was a devout Muslim.  There were no Muslim stores around so he bought his meat from a kosher butcher.   

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Posted by jeffrey-wimberly on Saturday, June 1, 2013 11:29 PM

Careful with the discussion of rabbis and don't swing into any religious discussion. It's easy to do.

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Posted by greyhounds on Saturday, June 1, 2013 8:09 PM

This whole Kosher thing is a non issue.

It's not as if a trailer that hauls a load of pork is forever banned from hauling a load of cheese.  When I started with the railroad we still hauled TOFC meat.  We had Rabbis on call to keep the meat Kosher.  If needed, we'd call the Rabbi and he would come out and perform the needed actions.

I'm sure the same thing could be done with a rail container that hauled a load of pork to the west coast.  Clean it out and call a Rabbi. 

I do not think too many produce receivers would be concerned about previous loads in the container.  As long as it was hygienically clean when loaded with their product.  But if a receiver was so concerned, I'm sure a solution could be found.

 

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Posted by jeffhergert on Saturday, June 1, 2013 7:43 PM

In addition to being the largest pork processor, Smithfield is also one of the largest hog producers.  An article in the paper a couple days ago when the story broke asked some agricultural experts if this was good news for Iowa hog producers.  While mostly noncommittal, kind of a wait and see attitude, one did mention about Smithfield's hog operations.  It was mentioned that China restricts pork imports because of a feed additive that's commonly used in the US.  Smithfield has been moving away from using the additive.  This expert thought because of Smithfield being able to supply most of the hogs they process, it wouldn't mean as much to the independent producer.

It kind of lets the Chinese say they are importing more American pork while still being in control from farm to market.

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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, June 1, 2013 6:29 PM

Semper Vaporo
As for back-hauling 'non-Kosher'... to the non-Jewish/non-Muslim/etc. it seems to be a non-issue, but I would ask you if you would mind buying milk from a company that used the same tank trucks to back-haul sewage... hey you can steam clean it and it may be germ free, but the "idea" is somehow objectionable to many people... we tend to want some intermediary step to move the disgusting part a couple of steps away through some "natural" process and "time".  Regardless, to those of certain religions, there is a REQUIREMENT that must be met and that settles the argument.

I understand what you are saying.  If I believed a product was not clean I would not buy it or eat it. Likewise if I had a religeous requirement to not eat a certain food, I would not eat it.  But if I had food to ship and my shipping did not meet the requirements of certain people, I would find other people to ship for. 

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Posted by edblysard on Saturday, June 1, 2013 6:26 PM

There are cars stenciled Kosher approved, I just saw a food service tank car last day or so stenciled as such, and here is a link to a company that washes and makes a tank car kosher approved…

http://www.tankcarcleaning.com/services/tankcarcleaning.html

More specifically see

http://oukosher.org/kosher/displaycertified

I have also seen a tank car for tallow use stenciled “Not for Kosher Use” although I can’t remember which of the big shippers it was leased to, it did specify beef tallow only.

Where there is a market….!

 

 

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Posted by John WR on Saturday, June 1, 2013 6:17 PM

Bucyrus
And why would China want to buy a pork plant in the U.S.?  What would be the financial incentive for them to own the U.S. based plant?  Why don't they just buy the pork and not own the plant?

It does strike me, Bucyrus, that the Chinese may not have a lot of interest in shipping any more pork to China than we currently export.   After all, raising pigs is not unknown to the Chinese.   They have been raising their own pigs since before we were a country.  

Right now the Smithfield Company has a hugh market for pork and pork products in the US.   To abandon that market and its profits makes no sense.  It certainly is possible that this Chinese company is simply looking for a place to invest its capital and in an uncertain world diversification makes sense.   

So this whole transaction, if it goes through, may not have any new implications for either rail or truck transportation.  To the extent that the Smithfield Company uses railroads and trucks now that will continue.   To the extent that the Smithfield Company exports pork and pork products that will continue. But there will be no real change other than the natural growth of the business.  

John

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Posted by Semper Vaporo on Saturday, June 1, 2013 6:12 PM

It is called "Vertical Integration"... you buy the processing plant and you don't have to pay the stock holders any profits, you keep them.  Eliminate the middle man and his profits and you reap the benefits.

For me, I do not want foreign ownership of American business/employment.  Whether it is stockholders or private ownership, I want the profits to stay here.  Of course, I should be just as concerned about American investment in foreign countries... but ... well... ummm.... ... ...

 

As for back-hauling 'non-Kosher'... to the non-Jewish/non-Muslim/etc. it seems to be a non-issue, but I would ask you if you would mind buying milk from a company that used the same tank trucks to back-haul sewage... hey you can steam clean it and it may be germ free, but the "idea" is somehow objectionable to many people... we tend to want some intermediary step to move the disgusting part a couple of steps away through some "natural" process and "time".  Regardless, to those of certain religions, there is a REQUIREMENT that must be met and that settles the argument.

 

 

 

Semper Vaporo

Pkgs.

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Posted by BroadwayLion on Saturday, June 1, 2013 5:54 PM

Bucyrus
And why would China want to buy a pork plant in the U.S.?  What would be the financial incentive for them to own the U.S. based plant? 

Same as I mentioned about the grain elevator above. They get to buy directly from the farmer rather then from Archer Daniels Midland et. al. Cut them guys out and you save a ton of money. Besides they *have* US dollars, and these are easier to spend here than in China.

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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, June 1, 2013 5:41 PM

I don't understand why kosher has to be a showstopper here.  We are only talking about the backhaul empties from the pork shipment.  Can't they be filled with non-kosher food for the backhaul?

And why would China want to buy a pork plant in the U.S.?  What would be the financial incentive for them to own the U.S. based plant?  Why don't they just buy the pork and not own the plant?

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Posted by BroadwayLion on Saturday, June 1, 2013 5:40 PM

AgentKid
I am not at all sure that the Chinese are any longer capable of pulling something like this off

Well, they are and they have. They have built from the ground up new grain elevators here in North Dakota. They buy grain directly from the farmers, cutting out ADM et.al. They transport it west by rail, and put it on ships bound for Japan and China.

I am certain that the government (there) does not mean to control enterprises in the USA as directly as they do in China, the really do not give a pig's tail about control of the bottom, it is the top that they want to keep under control.

Another issue is that 1) they still have to feed more people than they can grow for; 2) the populations have been shifting to the cities to cash in on the growth, and btw produce less food; and 3) China is trying to move factories and good jobs out into the hinterlands so that people will be able to remain out there.

China would make a good fit with the USA if it were not for the politics of both. But the Chinese do hold US money, and that is easier to spend in the USA than it is in China. And for all we hear about how much of USA China actually holds, it is a very small fraction of the US debt, most US debt is held by US citizens.

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Posted by jeffhergert on Saturday, June 1, 2013 5:33 PM

Before hiring out on the railroad, I worked at IBP (Pork plant at Perry, IA, now Tyson) for a few years.  Before a trailer or container was loaded with meat it gets washed out at the plant.  IBP contracted out the hostling of trailers between the drop area and load out doors.  The contractor who did this also took care of making sure the trailers were clean and ready to load.

When I worked at Perry they had 2 shifts.  The day shift production was all export for Japan.  The night shift was IBP product for domestic markets.  All the meat for export was cut into the desired pieces and shipped out boxed, most in sealed plastic wrap inside the boxes.  There was some product that was wrapped in paper, but I think that was only some of the larger cuts for domestic consumption.  The only thing items that weren't shipped that way were items (such as trimmings, pork bellies, hams etc) that were going to other plants for further processing.  The boxed items, which is most likely how any export product is going to go, will be less subject to being contaminated by a previous load.  I doubt they will be shipping sides of meat hanging from rails in the trailer/container.  I wonder if anyone still does it that way.  Besides, if a trailer or container isn't clean or hasn't been washed out, they simply won't load it.   

When I worked there, the export product went out in K-Line containers.  I don't know if they went to a railhead or direct to the west coast by highway.  The Japanese company that IBP dealt with had a presence at the plant.  They bought the hogs and specified how they wanted them processed.  When running the Japanese product, IBP couldn't work their own product.  That's why they had the second shift.  When I left there, the Japanese were in the process of having the plant modified to run one shift, but keep the same daily production numbers (about 3000 head) and all of it would be for export.  The plant is still open under Tyson and I assume still producing only for the export market.

Jeff      

 

 

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Posted by BroadwayLion on Saturday, June 1, 2013 5:27 PM

Firelock76

Uh, if the Chinese are buying the pork to ship home I don't think Kosher enters into the equation.

Except that reusing the cars to transport other food back east may violate Kosher rules. You cannot have meat and dairy in the same equipment. But a cursory Google seems to indicate that this applies in pots and in kitchens, but not in rail cars.

A salmon may eat a shrimp, and the salmon will still be kosher.

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Posted by AgentKid on Saturday, June 1, 2013 5:27 PM

BroadwayLion
It is simply NOT KOSHER to transport produce in the same car as Pork.

I'm sure he didn't mean Kosher Kosher, he was using the old expression that something is simply against the rules. This time being government food handling rules.

Now to the point I wanted to get to before this on again off again thread business started. I am not at all sure that the Chinese are any longer capable of pulling something like this off. If you recall about a month or so ago, the stock markets took a one day hit when some agency in China reported estimates of Chinese manufacturing potential for 2013 came in 2/10's of a percent lower than analysts expectations.

Immediately the media asked another analyst for his explanation for the hit. This fellow said that the much vaunted rise in entrepreneurism in China is coming to a sudden halt. The Chinese government does not like what they can't control, and they have begun to insert government functionaries and apparatchiks into the senior management and boards of directors of private companies started by entrepreneurs in the late 1990's and early 2000's.

So, while buying a pork producing factory seems easy enough, the new improved Chinese management system is going to want to have control over the shipping of the pork from the factory to China. Now since buying a Class I railroad is off the table, I suspect that China will insist on using trucks to get the product to port, and Chinese owned interstate trucking companies are bound to raise regulatory eyebrows.

Unless there is yet another change in Chinese business management philosophy I just don't see this deal ever getting off the ground.

Bruce

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Posted by Semper Vaporo on Saturday, June 1, 2013 5:14 PM

For some religions, there are dietary LAWS that must be followed to be sure the food is acceptable for their consumption.  It is usually associated with the Jewish term Kosher, but Muslim and other religions also have such restrictions.  It would be included in the business model if the business wants to not lose a contract due to failing to follow the practice.

I am not Jewish (nor of any religion that has a strict dietary laws to obey), but "my" understanding is that although you could perform a "hygienic" cleansing of the container, it would also require a ritual religious "cleansing" by a Levitical Priest (or religious leader of whatever religion is claiming that the food item is going to be acceptable) and possibly a waiting period (such as until sundown) before the container could be used again.

If any food item is to be considered acceptable (Kosher) then ALL the ingredients must be Kosher and prepared according to the dietary law being in effect.  For example, a cake might be prepared according to Kosher rules, but if the food coloring is from shellfish then the cake can no longer be considered Kosher.

There are some disagreements amongst the various sects of the various religions as to what constitutes "acceptable" and it can become a quagmire to wade through.  But the business model may need to take some base level into account.

Semper Vaporo

Pkgs.

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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, June 1, 2013 4:56 PM

So what does kosher have to do with a back haul of fruits or vegetables in a container that hauled pork?

Why should this business model need to include kosher food?

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Posted by John WR on Saturday, June 1, 2013 4:45 PM

I'm not Jewish and all I really know is what I just read in your link.  

However, the information on cleaning is not at all clear.  Food preparation items becomes meat or milk accordingly as they are used to prepare these foods.  For example, in the instructions, a towel that is used to dry dishes milk products are served in can simply be washed.  It can then be used to dry meat dishes.  Washing the towel between uses is the key here.  

But pork or pork products would never ever enter an observant Jewish household.   To make an item kosher after it has been used with pork is inconceivable.  

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Posted by Convicted One on Saturday, June 1, 2013 4:41 PM

Uh, it's not the Chinese who would have concern for possible compromise to dietary law.

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Posted by Firelock76 on Saturday, June 1, 2013 4:39 PM

Uh, if the Chinese are buying the pork to ship home I don't think Kosher enters into the equation.

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Posted by BroadwayLion on Saturday, June 1, 2013 4:35 PM

There is Kosher, and then there is Kosher (or Glatt Kosher if you prefer).

(stirring the pot.) Smile, Wink & Grin

(And none of it has to do with rail cars, but at least I tried to start something.)

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Posted by Convicted One on Saturday, June 1, 2013 4:29 PM

zugmann
aren't the Kosher rules more about production?

Here is a listing of dietary law that explains things in more detail.  Strict observers have two refrigerators in their house, one for meat, the other for dairy.

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Posted by John WR on Saturday, June 1, 2013 4:17 PM

Bonas
So Kosher Products cant use the same trailers railroad cars as non kosher food? I post the question on ASK the RABBI and get back to you on this.

I, for one, will be waiting for the answer.  

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Posted by zugmann on Saturday, June 1, 2013 4:13 PM

Bonas

So Kosher Products cant use the same trailers railroad cars as non kosher food? I post the question on ASK the RABBI and get back to you on this.

I doubt the Kosher hot dogs get separate trucks than the non-kosher ones.  They share the same display case in a store - aren't the Kosher rules more about production?

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any

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Posted by Convicted One on Saturday, June 1, 2013 4:08 PM

BroadwayLion
It is simply NOT KOSHER to transport produce in the same car as Pork.

have a cheeseburger!! Clown

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