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Wireless Transmission A Practical Solution For Railroad Electrification

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Posted by Firelock76 on Thursday, April 18, 2013 8:40 PM

You know, I think the nexr power source for locomotives could be something none us us could imagine, anymore than Stevenson could imagine an electric locomotive replacing steam.

Maybe a super-sized super-efficient solar cell mounted on the roof of the locomotive sending power to the traction motors?   Could happen.  I probably won't live to see it, but who knows?

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Posted by John WR on Thursday, April 18, 2013 7:53 PM

tree68
That'd make cooking lunch at places like Deshler and Fostoria really easy....  Dinner

Just be sure your lunch is the only thing you cook.  

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Posted by tree68 on Thursday, April 18, 2013 12:24 PM

CSSHEGEWISCH

If you had multiple beam paths, you might not want to let the beams cross.Laugh

That'd make cooking lunch at places like Deshler and Fostoria really easy....  Dinner

LarryWhistling
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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Thursday, April 18, 2013 6:45 AM

Thanks to the EE's who can point out the folly of such a system.  I would think that induction currents would be a real issue too.

If you had multiple beam paths, you might not want to let the beams cross.Laugh

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Posted by erikem on Wednesday, April 17, 2013 9:42 PM

MikeF90

O.K. now, where's young erikem with his detailed calculations ....

Young??? I'm about the same age as Paul D North, Overmod and maybe a bit younger than Greyhounds... Wink

There are a couple of different ways to transmit power sans wires. One is to use coupled high-Q resonators to make up for lack of coupling, but power transfer peters out when separation exceeds a few times the size of the largest resonator (near field). Keep in mind that the presence of large amounts of metal will do bad things for coupling. The other is use antennas to transmit power, good coupling can be maintained with dipole antennas up to about a quarter wavelength, much farther will require directional antennas and start looking like what MikeF90 was talking about. To get adequate power to the train, the power density of the beam would be approaching a MW/m^2, which would do a good job of cooking anything that got into the beam path - I'd rather deal with nuclear powered locomotives.

- Erik

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Posted by John WR on Wednesday, April 17, 2013 9:32 PM

Semper Vaporo

Broadcast radio stations send out multi-megawatts sometimes, but it goes in all directions, so by the time is has gone very far, there is barely enough to drive a small speaker in a non-power/non-amplified radio (think, Crystal Radio).

When I was a kid I used to make simple radios.  One of them was designed to tune in two stations.  You tuned in the strongest station in your area; that station simply powered the radio to recieve the station hou wanted to hear.  

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Posted by Semper Vaporo on Wednesday, April 17, 2013 9:21 PM

Broadcast radio stations send out multi-megawatts sometimes, but it goes in all directions, so by the time is has gone very far, there is barely enough to drive a small speaker in a non-power/non-amplified radio (think, Crystal Radio).

 

Confine it to a beam that does not spread out and you will cook any bird or other 'animal' that wanders into the path (Think microwave oven!  Or why there is a switch on the landing gear of planes that shut off the nose radar when the weight of the plane is on the wheels.  Don't wanna cook the guy directing the pilot where to park if the pilot forgets to turn off the radar when he has landed!)

I don't think wireless transmission of electrical power is a good idea!

 

 

Semper Vaporo

Pkgs.

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Posted by John WR on Wednesday, April 17, 2013 9:13 PM

With wireless transmission all that is needed is a sending station.  It doesn't need towers to carry electric wires.  So it might be quite easy to get the permission needed.  

However, actually transmitting sufficient electric power through the air to power a train is easer said than done.  

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Posted by tree68 on Wednesday, April 17, 2013 7:51 PM

After seeing the opposition to an extra-high voltage (765KVA) transmission line that was built near here some years back, I can't begin to imagine what hassles and roadblocks getting such a system installed would have to overcome.

LarryWhistling
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Posted by John WR on Wednesday, April 17, 2013 7:44 PM

One problem is that the electricity can cause damage, in fact severe damage, to animals including human beings.  We don't feel high frequency electric waves but that doesn't mean they cannot harm us.  

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Posted by MikeF90 on Wednesday, April 17, 2013 7:07 PM

ontheBNSF
Tesla Developed technology to do just that but unfortunately it was never fully developed. Wireless transmission if efficient enough could solve all of those barriers to entry.

Well, I'm an EE and I haven't seen anything in the above links/discussion that really addresses energy transmission 'efficiency'.

Tesla setups look pretty omni-directional to me. Also, way too much 'power' in for an (as yet) unquantifiable output at some remote location.  Where the does the rest of the energy go? Hopefully not as a surge somewhere in nearby power transmission lines.  I don't want that power bill. As a side note, (except indirectly by geothermal means) we've haven't been able to harvest useful power from the worlds largest power source - the molten iron core of the planet.

AFAIK a Testa coil produces a lot of electromagnetic interference across the spectrum. Not very nice to impact existing electronic devices and communication services.

A theoretical alternative (maglev aside) might be to transmit energy along the RR ROW only (riiiight) to a 'small', moving locomotive mounted receiver. Hmmm. Think microwave to light wavelengths. Besides the power conversion and moving target tracking challenges, the crew would have to be protected from that level of energy density (in kind of a reverse microwave oven - Faraday cage). BTW the U.S. military has been trying to do much the same thing with various high energy laser systems since the 1970s without much success. If they could propel a small missile with microwaves they might be interested, but when the missile disappears from the line of sight ...... thud.

O.K. now, where's young erikem with his detailed calculations ....

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Posted by Firelock76 on Wednesday, April 17, 2013 4:50 PM

I wouldn't say it wouldn't work, I don't know enough about it one way or another, and I'm certainly no electrical engineer.

But I can just hear the screams, and I do mean SCREAMS from the NIMBYS if they try to erect one of those things. 

PS:  I love Tesla coils!  Always wanted one.

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Wireless Transmission A Practical Solution For Railroad Electrification
Posted by ontheBNSF on Wednesday, April 17, 2013 4:27 PM

The United States with its largeness and rugged terrain makes railroad electrification a difficult proposition. High capital costs maintenance costs also make it difficult too. To get around these problem electricity could be transmitted wirelessly. Tesla Developed technology to do just that but unfortunately it was never fully developed. Wireless transmission if efficient enough could solve all of those barriers to entry. The problem with current technology is that it has larger transmission loss. The Removal of catenary friction would also allow higher speed passenger trains. I find it weird that the Morgans who owned a large number of Railroads would kill funding for it.

http://www.teslasociety.com/teslacoil.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_coil

Railroad to Freedom

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