Who put that train on the ground!
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
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LIRR + snow = delays/disaster => no surprise here
The real surprise is the MTA reactivating the South Ferry loop on the 1-Line... a ride through the reactivated Loop is a must for any subway fan.
BroadwayLion Who put that train on the ground!
LION:
Here is some information from the MTA website linked on TRAINS Newswire
From The WEBsite:
"...MTA Long Island Rail Road will cancel seven and divert one of the 128 trains it normally provides during the PM rush hour this evening because of a track outage caused by Monday night’s derailment west of Forest Hills Station in Queens.
Due to the extensive damage resulting from the derailment of a non-passenger train, it is estimated that the track repair will take several more days. Customers should expect some AM and PM peak cancellations through Friday.
Crews have re-railed two of the four cars that derailed, but all must be re-railed and removed before track work can fully commence.
Approximately 3,700 feet of track was damaged on one of the LIRR’s crucial four main tracks between Jamaica and Penn Station, thus limiting the Railroad’s ability to run its normal compliment of rush hour trains.
LIRR crews are working around-the-clock and readying equipment so that the process of removing and replacing damaged track, running rail and electrified third rail can begin. The job will also require the use of a specialized concrete track-laying machine that will remove and replace some 1,600 damaged ties. Once the new concrete ties are in place, the running rails and third rail are then re-installed on this almost three-quarter mile stretch of track. An investigation is underway regarding the cause of the derailment..."
(added color to highlight the suspeced cause as reported by MTA Website.)
More Video...
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Watch yourself up there, the other tracks are all LIVE.
ROAR
No kidding.
I looked at the video and thought to myself, given the emphasis on safety and what I thought were pretty stringent rules and procedures for travelling through a work zone, as well as estimating the clearances between tracks on both sides of the derailment work site, those trains passing by certainly didn't appear to be travelling at restricted speed or anything close to it as they pass the workers.
What sort of protection would these workers have in a situation such as this on a busy commuter railroad, beyond working at off peak periods when traffic would be less frequent on adjacent tracks. Does anyone know what sort of rules or procedures LIRR has in place for such circumstances.
I'm sure there must be something.
Charlie
Chilliwack, BC
Well, I *think* the trains *were* slowed down. Usually they do 80 past there. As long as they keep on their own track, the opposing trains will not reach out to grab them. I wonder what the poor mudchicken thinks of all this. The job is a 24/7 job, but then this is a 24/7 railroad and is the main line between NYC and Long Island.
But yeah... it does not look good. If you step out onto the wrong track at the wrong time it does not matter if the train is running at 10 mph or 50 mph.
They do have flagmen out, but they were not visible in this shot.
Video makes it look faster than actual. Probably down to @20 or 25 which is slow compared to the 70 they are allowed there.
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I do not know the LI RR's rules.
On my carrier there would be train messages issued to all trains operating on the specific territory. The train message would designate a specific employee that must be contacted on the radio to receive authority to operate past the site. The designated employee would specify what speed each train must observe - anything from 10 MPH to track speed as specified by the designated employee (who would designate that speed depending upon what was taking place at the time). The designated employee could also withhold giving passing trains authority to pass if their passing would create a dangerous situation for employees involved in the rerailing or track repair.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
It seems like the situation is under control and operating and no one is getting killed or injured and that wht is happening is SOP. Professionals doing their jobs safely and efficiently in the cabs an on the ground.
henry6 It seems like the situation is under control and operating and no one is getting killed or injured and that wht is happening is SOP. Professionals doing their jobs safely and efficiently in the cabs an on the ground.
I'm quite sure this was and is the case and that they would have SOP's of some kind. I was curious about what they might be and therefore how LI RR would actually protect track and re-railing work in what is obviously a busy 70 mph 4 track section of a NYC commuter railroad.
Thank you all.
Charlie,
LIRR operates under the NORAC rule book, and from what I can gather from the book, the foreman of the work crew would have issued a form D through the dispatcher, instructing all trains entering the work area to confirm they have received a copy of the form D, which sets limits of authority for movement and speed, and instructing them to contact him, (foreman in charge) for permission to pass.
He could issue a no pass order then, or a speed restriction, or simply tell them to come a running, it falls on him to have his crew out of the way if so.
The equivalent GCOR rule are numbers 15.1, 15.2 and 15.2.1, all concerning track bulletins and protection of workers.
April 7, 2010
15.1 Track Bulletins
Track bulletins must not be changed unless specified by Rules 15.1.1 (Changing Address of Track
Warrants or Track Bulletins) or Rule 15.13 (Voiding Track Bulletins). The train dispatcher will issue track
bulletins as required. Track bulletins will contain information on all conditions that affect safe train or
engine movement. Forms other than track bulletin Forms A and B may be used when necessary.
Receipt and Comparison of Track Bulletins
The conductor and engineer must receive a track warrant at their initial station unless otherwise instructed
by the train dispatcher. All track bulletins that affect their train’s movement must be listed on the track
warrant, unless the track warrant shows “NONE” or “NO.” The conductor and engineer must have copies
of all track bulletins listed and other instructions required. Each crew member must read and understand
them.
All crew members are responsible for complying with the requirements of track bulletins and reminding
each other of those requirements.
At the initial station, when outbound crew members receive track warrants and track bulletins from
inbound crew members, the conductor and engineer must compare the track warrants and track bulletins
with each other and with the train dispatcher before proceeding.
At locations where track warrants listing track bulletins are received by printer or fax, crew members must
verify that route description, if printed, covers the intended route of their train. If it does not, contact the
train dispatcher and determine if the track warrant is valid. Also, crew members must check the date and
“OK” time on the track warrant and if the track warrant is over 4 hours old, contact the train dispatcher and
determine if additional track bulletins are needed.
Any rule referencing track warrants is also applicable to DTC authority.
15.1.1 Changing Address of Track Warrants or Track Bulletins
If the address must be changed on a track warrant used to deliver track bulletins only or a track
bulletin that does not grant authority according to Rule 15.3 (Authorizing Movement Against
the Current of Traffic), the train dispatcher may verbally change the train symbol, engine
identification, direction, or date.
15.2 Protection by Track Bulletin Form B
Display track flags as specified in Rule 5.4.3 (Display of Yellow-Red Flag) and Rule 5.4.7 (Display of Red
Flag or Red Light).
A train must not enter the limits unless instructed by the employee in charge. A train within the limits at
the time the track bulletin Form B takes effect must not make further movement until instructed by the
employee in charge.
A crew member must attempt to contact the employee in charge of a track bulletin Form B to avoid delay,
giving the train’s location and track being used. The employee in charge will use the following format to
establish communication with the train:
Foreman (name and/or gang number) using Track Bulletin No.____ (specifying line number when
necessary) between MP____ and MP____ (specifying subdivision when necessary).
Trains within the limits of a track bulletin Form B, unless otherwise restricted, must move at the speed(s)
specified by the employee in charge as stated in Item A (Instructions).
GCOR—Sixth Edition—April 7, 2010 15-3
A. Instructions
After communication with the train has been established, the employee in charge will use the
following format to grant a train permission to proceed through the Form B limits:
• (Train ID) may pass the red flag (or red light) at MP____ (without stopping) and proceed at (one of
the following), (specifying track when necessary):
- “Maximum Authorized Speed”
- “Restricted Speed”
- A speed specified by the employee in charge
Two additional speeds may be given to restrict a train’s movement through a portion of the limits, by
adding the following:
• Do not exceed ____MPH between/at MP____ and MP____ (or other location).
To require a train to stop at a designated location within the limits, add the following:
• Stop at MP____ (or other location) until additional instructions are received.
When men or equipment foul adjacent track(s), add the following:
• Men or equipment fouling (specify track).
B. Repeat Instructions
A crew member must repeat the above instructions, and the employee giving the instructions must
acknowledge them before they can be followed.
Once instructions are received from employee in charge, if the track route changes from previous
instructions received, contact employee in charge to determine that original instructions received
are valid on new track route before proceeding on the new route. The movement must not change
direction without permission from the employee in charge.
15.2.1 Protection for On-Track Equipment
Track bulletin Form B may be used to protect on-track equipment, such as rail detector cars,
without using yellow-red flags. Identify protected equipment in the track bulletin.
While trains, engines, and protected equipment are in track bulletin limits, they will otherwise be
governed by Rule 15.2 (Protection by Track Bulletin Form B). The same track bulletin must not
protect other gangs and equipment.
23 17 46 11
Thaks Ed
Appreciate the summary and the rules applying....
So what basically NORAC is saying is that control of train passage on adjacent track(s) rests with Track Foreman, Dispatcher and track authority documents specific to the situation. TF controls movement based on Form D or B authority he has issued and then grants by Form D or B so issued, specific permission to pass to trains crews who have been required to view and acknowledge same by restating this authority to the dispatcher and foreman.
Sounds like it would work well.
Kind of like a 'heavyweight dance' of sorts....making sure all partners get the steps right.
edblysard Charlie, LIRR operates under the NORAC rule book, and from what I can gather from the book, the foreman of the work crew would have issued a form D through the dispatcher, instructing all trains entering the work area to confirm they have received a copy of the form D, which sets limits of authority for movement and speed, and instructing them to contact him, (foreman in charge) for permission to pass.
Neither LIRR nor Metro North Railroad come under NORAC. Metro North did sit at the first organizing meeting of NORAC, but then dropped out. LIRR did sit at the table, but never adopted NORAC.
Obvioulsy LIRR trains operating west of Harold Tower would be on AMTK property and would follow NORAC rules there, but not out in Rego Park.
Conversly, AMTK crews operating on the tracks belonging to Metro North would have to follow the Metro North rule book, and would have to be crtified for the tracks that they use. A crew certified for the Hudson Line, might not be also certified for the New Haven Line.
When football trains to the Meadowlands run from New Haven, they must use NJT equipment because Metro North equipment cannot run on LIRR type third rail nor on the 25 cycle power provided by AMTK below New Rochelle, where as NJT equipment can run on 25 cycle or 60 cycle power.
AMTK locomotives cannot enter the tunnels to Grand Centeral Terminal because they do not have escape hatches on the nose of the locomotive, nor are AMTK locomotives compatible with Metro North Third Rail. AMTK locomotives can and do operate into Penn Station where they run on LIRR type third rail. Metro North locomotives cannot go to Penn Station because they cannot run on LIRR type third rail.
Metro North has receintly developed a universal shoe that can work on their own third rail or that of the LIRR, and these might be used if MNRR traffic should ever enter Penn Station.
Of course rules and equipment are two separate items of differences and are not necessarily equal.
However, I think both LIRR and MNRR are using NORAC rules with Form D's, etc. The LIRR has moved to NORAC from the CODE over the last couple of years and I don't believe the use the timetable and train orders for authority any more, the last train orders having been written and issued late last year. New signalning on both railroads coupled with the NORAC rules are the way the operate now.
Me thinks new signal heads have been put in place on LIRR and the last towers are no longer doing orders, but I do not think that the railroad adopted NORAC even if the signal system is in some sort of compliance. The LIRR cab signals are somewhat unique, albeit old PRR stuff, and MNCR has its own cab signal system.
I think these railroads still have their own rulebooks.
A former co-worker worked for NY&A (the freight operator) for a spell. When he was there, LIRR had their own rulebook, etc. He said it was completely different than the GCOR he was used to.
I believe they have switched to GCOR since then.
Mike WSOR engineer | HO scale since 1988 | Visit our club www.WCGandyDancers.com
WSOR 3801 A former co-worker worked for NY&A (the freight operator) for a spell. When he was there, LIRR had their own rulebook, etc. He said it was completely different than the GCOR he was used to. I believe they have switched to GCOR since then.
I think so, too, especially since they abandoned the train order system about a year or so ago.
BroadwayLion AMTK locomotives cannot enter the tunnels to Grand Centeral Terminal because they do not have escape hatches on the nose of the locomotive, nor are AMTK locomotives compatible with Metro North Third Rail. AMTK locomotives can and do operate into Penn Station where they run on LIRR type third rail. Metro North locomotives cannot go to Penn Station because they cannot run on LIRR type third rail. ROAR
http://www.nyctransitforums.com/forums/topic/22893-old-photos-of-amtrak-in-grand-central/
IIRC Metro North runs P32's into Grand Central.
Rgds IGN
There appear to be some exceptions, but that AMTK unit does have an MNCR pilot locomotive.
All MNCR units have forward escape hatches per union contracts, and darn few AMTK crews would be qualified to run on there. The same rules do not apply into Penn Stations which has adequate bench walls to escape a problem using a side door.
Ed's lengthy quote above from the GCOR rulebook (as a substitute for NORAC) addresses and covers providing protection for the re-railing and track repair operations via restricting the authority and speed of any trains passing by.
In addition, the track workers are required to have their own protection by FRA regulations at 49 CFR Part 214 RAILROAD WORKPLACE SAFETY, Subpart C - Roadway Worker Protection - see:
http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=7dc0ad91ccaad660d5aa1f1c840fb4a1&rgn=div5&view=text&node=49:4.1.1.1.9&idno=49#49:4.1.1.1.9.3
Very briefly, there are several different other methods of providing adequate protection. This situation appears to be using at least the "Working Limits" method per Section 214.321 - Exclusive Track Occupancy., plus Section 214.336 - On-track safety procedures for certain roadway work groups and adjacent tracks., which requires coordination with the dispatcher.
But in general, there are roughly a half-dozen other methods available for use, some of which are 'self-help' in nature and do not necessarily require the involvement of the dispatcher and/ or train crew - e.g., § 214.329 - Train approach warning provided by watchmen/lookouts., § 214.327 - Inaccessible track., or § 214.337 - On-track safety procedures for lone workers. (not applicable here, of course).
What I don't know (yet) is if the Part 214 requirements for "Roadway Workers" (i.e., track and other Engineering Dept. people) technically also apply to the carmen or Mechanical Dept. folks as well when they are on the ground - which would seem to be a similar situation - or whether there are separate and similar rules that likewise provide for and govern their safety in the vicinity of live tracks and moving trains.
- Paul North.
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