Zugs: The trainmaster's reply and the lack of an assigned flagman tells me that the answer is "NO" in both cases. Lot's of people and that company are in for beaucoup fines. Canada and the US both go after the wreckless individuals along with the employer. (The "I didn't Know" cop-out won't fly here....being involved in the process following the Amtrak vs crane fiasco at Benkleman, NE, I know the incident won't be glossed over and forgotten.)
There continues to be far too many people that are too cheap, too short term in their planning and too unprepared to deal with railroad safety. These bozos deserve (1) to go out of business, (2) to go broke personally and (3) to have a criminal record after this.
(the present system of arranging protection has some issues that need addressed [ another thread some day], but these clowns deserve the book thrown at them. They are lucky that they are alive and didn't maim or kill the train crew. For the railroaders on here: fodder for CN to produce "Funeral For A Friend 2" )
zugmann So were the contractors working on a railroad project? And will they be invited back?
So were the contractors working on a railroad project?
And will they be invited back?
CShaveRR Take pride in the fact that you and your friends probably prevented a disaster by being where you were, when you were, and reacting properly.I hope the TM shows a bit of appreciation to you "personnel".
Take pride in the fact that you and your friends probably prevented a disaster by being where you were, when you were, and reacting properly.I hope the TM shows a bit of appreciation to you "personnel".
mudchicken (SNIPPED, Bold & Underline - me) There continues to be far too many people that are too cheap, too short term in their planning and too unprepared to deal with railroad safety. These bozos deserve (1) to go out of business, (2) to go broke personally and (3) to have a criminal record after this. (the present system of arranging protection has some issues that need addressed [ another thread some day], but these clowns deserve the book thrown at them. They are lucky that they are alive and didn't maim or kill the train crew. For the railroaders on here: fodder for CN to produce "Funeral For A Friend 2" )
Dan
Dan, interesting story - thanks for sharing ! And to you and your friends for being 'heads-up' and alert and knowing what to do, and having the guts to do it. Hopefully there's a TM and some train crews who now have a higher opinion of at least some of the railfan community. Not likely that the train would have derailed or any of the crew would have been injured if the locomotive had struck the lift - but still possible; more likely is some damage to the front end of the unit and track, and much more lengthy and costly delays to crews and trains for inspections, repairs, reports, sorting out the mess, etc. So you guys undoubtedly had a big hand in preventing a mess of trouble for everyone. That said:
mudchicken, I and some others here can have interesting and esoteric debates about the regulations that were violated, but since those clowns were not working for the railroad and were not authorized by the railroad to be there, I'm not aware of a specific FRA regulation that was violated.* If I'm right - and I well might not be* - that's an oversight or 'loophole' that needs to be corrected and closed so that enforcement is also with a rail-oriented federal agency (the FRA), pretty much the same as any unauthorized incursion onto an airport will get the trespasser into a world of hurt with the TSA. More than likely, though, there's also an OSHA violation of some kind here*, but I'd like to see the FRA empowered to prosecute it as well.
*Pending further detailed research when I have more time.
- Paul North.
Paul_D_North_Jr , but I'd like to see the FRA empowered to prosecute it as well. - Paul North.
, but I'd like to see the FRA empowered to prosecute it as well.
I'd rather not. They already are too involved in too much, IMO.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
I'll opine that there's no FRA violation involved. They were simply trespassing, although there could be issues with having delayed a train.
Thanks to some observant and knowledgable railfans, they're still alive to take their punishment.
It's interesting that few people realize just how hard it is to cross the tracks sans the usual crossing structure. I've related here before about the young soldier in a compact pickup (4x4) who tired of waiting for the train occupying the crossing (they were doubling out a train) and figured he'd just drive across the tracks a hundred yards or so from the crossing. He didn't make it. Fortunately, they were switching, so there was no high speeds involved.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
PDN: The debate goes on over here as well. FRA has been a little wishy-washy over enforcement of the 214(c)/On-Track Safety rules. There has been some letter writing going on between California and the FRA in the past 6 months over some dime-store lawyering/ selective rule interpretation in central CA. We had our own correspondence over the perceived "loophole" and FRA seems to be hands-off until the issue becomes major. I do know that OSHA and FRA jointly went after the crane violator in NE after it became glaringly apparent that the crane owner broke multiple rules (state & federal) in an ethics-of-the-low-bid move common in Ag country ("Agri-Dummies" is the coined slang term here with the standard "I didn't know" line used profusely by the violators trying to exempt themselves from prosecution.). The jurisdictional issue between agencies needs to be much clearer, I agree. The trespass issue is clear. My understanding, from railroad police and railroad attorneys, is that because this was not in a dedicated public R/W crossing a railroad R/W...FRA takes the lead with OSHA in support.
MC are you back in our field yet?
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
Hmmm...it looks like a redecorating effort in the Lounge has gone horribly wrong. Is anyone else seeing this thread strangely? I've not noticed this on any other threads here in the Forum.
CShaveRR Hmmm...it looks like a redecorating effort in the Lounge has gone horribly wrong. Is anyone else seeing this thread strangely? I've not noticed this on any other threads here in the Forum.
Off and on. Seems like everything is mashed together?
Must be changing out the hamsters.
Yeah, this thread has become a real mess. It's all Dan's fault. The other threads look ok to me.
Ditto, except for the "It's all Dan's fault" part - it seemed to really go haywire with my lengthy post above.
I'm also wondering if those guys with the lift also like to take it on shortcuts across Interstate highways, and the runways of busy airports ???
Also, didn't the plant know that the gate in their fence was being opened by these guys ? If not, why not ? How did the plant know they weren't trespassers ? What kind of gate leads to a railroad track without a crossing anyway ? Lots of unanswered questions here, too !
Might be worthwhile for the railroad officials to visit the plant manager, plant engineer, and chief safety and security guys, and explain to them some facts of life along a busy Class I railroad track . . .
Something sure as heck has gone haywire.
It is not the first time I have seen this problem. I can't say for sure this time, but I have noticed a correlation between users posting their messages from phones, and this problem occurring. I think it might have something to do with a miscommunication of margin settings.
Bruce
So shovel the coal, let this rattler roll.
"A Train is a Place Going Somewhere" CP Rail Public Timetable
"O. S. Irricana"
. . . __ . ______
Paul,
I know it's not really Dan's fault; I just wanted to give him "the business".
Although.......Dan has been noted to be a troublemaker from time to time....
(1) If software or a computer CPU is involved, and the IT Department has not de-gaussed recently and I'm as far away from the office as possible...It was me!
(2) Carl: Have not gone back yet. CSX is dragging it's feet on the permitting issue. (Anything to annoy NS)...Having major problems with how CR procedurally abandoned the Ft Wayne Line, built a line change 1978-81 and sold off the old main between Buffington and Whiting. Stuff does not fit.
MC, that time frame coincides, I think, with when Cline Avenue (Route 912) was extended and brought around (the bridge they built is currently being torn out; structural problems). I remember hearing how all three routes in the vicinity (NYC, B&O, PRR) were supposed to be squeezed together, but then the PRR side was downgraded. I know the track still is in there to serve the mill, but don't really know whose it is.I wonder where we go to get this fixed...it looks good until you hit the "post" button.
Carl: Your memory is correct and I have the Cline Ave documents, but lo-and-behold the exact limits of the abandonment are unknown to STB or anybody else. Weird. (wanna get out and jump on the grave of CR and those who keep saying how wunnerful CR was..... compared to whom? Second rate INMHO in how they complied with railroad business regs.- they either cheated or were inept ..and the same things keep cropping up) Putting the puzzle together in the 'hood here is fitting.
A casino owns some of that old R/W (they don't really want it - story there) , what CSX still owns, you can't get to (x-ing frogs at Tolleston and Clarke Jcn are out and now CN-EJ&E put a giant fill over part of it near Clarke Junction (1" sapplings coming up in the ballast cribs, brand new 136# CWR laid by CR in 1979-80 w/ no anchors, never used (Mill scale still on the rail))...strange, strange neighborhood
Here's pictures for you Paul (and others).
Our first location. Train had just stopped rolling forward.http://flic.kr/p/dTBLgh
Our second location. Train was stopped and removal process under way again.http://flic.kr/p/dTBLoh
Don't blame me for the forum software...I just post (volunteer) here!
WOW! You were really fortunate to get the train stopped given the visibility issues in the first of the linked photos.
Good job Dan!
As an amateur railroad historian of dubious qualifications (but accasionally profound insights), I will disagree a bit with your characterization of Conrail. Several points: I believe that there were, and that one could point to, two separate lives of Conrail. The first was when Penn Central and the six (or seven, doesn't matter for our purposes) dwarfs came together as one. The company was consolidated by virtue of its name, by virtue of having its people and assest under one corporate logo, and little more. If you travelled to Philadelphia to converse with the people, you'd meet, "Mr. So-and-So, formerly of the PRR/Reading/NYC/EL/etc." None of 'em were considered part of Conrail. Please note that the Red Team/Green Team fissure still rent the company, and guys from the dwarf properties huddled together for safety with peers from their particular dwarf. Takes a long time to get all hands pulling on the oar in unison.
In 1980, Congress re-beefed up USRA to determine what was wrong with the plans drawn up for a merged and profitable Conrail. Conrail was supposed to have been posting positive numbers, and it lost something on the order of $200 Million, then a HUGE number. USRA's findings suggested that even with the consolidation, the road had too many terminals, too many branch lines, was saddled with onerous labor agreements and oppressive rate regulation, and thus, hauled too many carloads at a loss. In short, it needed to go on a diet and shed lines, terminals, extra people, and then streamline the way it went about doing business. The fact that its first CEO, Edward Jordan, came from the insurance business and knew less about railroading than my darling wife -- Bless her!!-- didn't help much.
A shot in the arm came when Jordan resigned (maybe someone "suggested" he do so -- I couldn't say), and Stanley Crane came in from Southern Railway. Also came NERSA and Staggers Acts, much written about here, which together meant better management quality, much, much less internal wrangling, especially among camps from the different roads that made up Conrail, the ability to raise and lower rates, to surcharge non-compensatory traffic, to abandon non-compensatory branch lines without the usual ICC bumpf, and more, and if earnings did not pick up to the point that the property became "profitable," then it could be sold off and its best parts cherry picked by roads eager to establish a market presence in North Jersey, Detroit, the coal fields of Pennsylvania, and more places. In other words, if you were a management employee with any vestiges of seniority and perks accruing therefrom you better get with the program or go to work painting lines in parking lots or something.
Conrail's managerial quality and earnings both began to rise. And stupid stuff like laying new 136# rail on nothingburger lines in Northern Indiana began to fall off. Conrail I and Conrail II, I call these phases of Conrail life. Different as chalk and cheese.
It looks like everything is on the rail and upright again here; must have just gone to the bottom of the page.Whatever we did, we'd better cut that out (Bruce, your theory is as good as any)!I took a walk from our prairie-home museum (the Peck House, near the Grace control point) home this morning. Only two trains appeared during the 15 or so minutes I was along the tracks, but one tank car in the eastbound manifest (from Des Moines or maybe Eagle Grove) was the last one I needed to have documentation of the lessee for everything in the group. How lucky is that?
Billio:
Problem is, CR2 aparently was worse than CR1....Passaic NJ (CR/USRA Line Code 1420) not that long ago hit the fan at STB for a 1990 infraction (CR2 again). You're welcome to join the apologists praising CR, but there is a busload of ex-CR folks praying the statute of limitations runs out before they are found liable for their repeat negligence (I'm dealing with blunders in Line Code 3202, 9707 and 3257 right now) . The basic rules that were broken still apply today for any other Class 1 railroad. Regardless of NERSA, CR was a poor/ sloppy operator right up to the end, saved by a feeble & toothless ICC/STB. CSX and NS are now left fixing the mess left behind.
Thanks much, Dan - the photos are as good as I'd expected ! That 2nd photo ought to go to Operation Lifesaver, the FRA, OSHA, and all railroad safety folks - it's just priceless ! Couldn't dream up that kind of stunt - no one would believe it !
So yesterday I'm taking a break from my current "day job" to be on a monthly conference call with the Track Alignment Design Seminar II (TADS2) subcommittee of AREMA Committee 24 - Training & Education (mudchicken's had a lot to do with that - thanks, good buddy !). Anyway, right in the middle of the discussion I hear a rumbling, and not 100 yds. away an eastbound Delaware-Lackawanna train goes by past the Mt. Pocono station site and over the SR 611 bridge at about 15 MPH - with 5 ALCos on the point, no 2 in the same paint scheme as best as I can recall ! Well, no photos, of course - duty (or "hobby 1") before "hobby 2", I suppose. . . Will be back up there today and Friday, so maybe I'll get another opportunity then ??
Paul - was one of them in green and black? It might still say "Adirondack" on the sides...
The light green/dark green paint scheme harkens back to BC Rail, but the locomotives were originally EL.
DL does love their ALCos.
Hey Carl, had a new TILX 2-bay sand car in our yard last night. Built date of last month. About time they got those things on the assembly line.
(this one was for foundry sand, not fracing).
PDN: If you start talking to BNSF's Art C. on the Committee and mention me, I'm gonna have my ears burning before long.
Tree & PDN: Now three of us have seen and photographed that same engine in two or three separate shortlines and paint schemes? (In the 1980's, that thing still had its worn BN paint with small hints of SP&S showing on the Kyle in KS & CO)
billio Conrail was supposed to have been posting positive numbers, and it lost something on the order of $200 Million, then a HUGE number.
Conrail was supposed to have been posting positive numbers, and it lost something on the order of $200 Million, then a HUGE number.
You know that last part, about $200 million being a huge number, for some reason makes me feel old. (That's not suppose to happen until April.) It dosen't seem like that long ago that a million dollars was a huge amount. I have magazine article about the late John Kenefick. There's a part where he's talking to a UP director about purchasing the Western Pacific. The director asked him what it would cost. Mr. Kenefick answered that they could probably get it for $20 million. Now, that amount is a small lottery prize.
Yesterday, I had my triennial vision and hearing exam to renew my license. Everything's OK, no changes in my hearing from last time, despite what my wife thinks.
Jeff
SP&S 303, BN (and all others up to DL) 4243.
I've had my hand on the throttle, too, albeit not during my tenure as an "official" engineer.
Still a good runner.
Jeff, our local company nurse assured me that selective hearing is normal at our advanced age. He should have told our wives...
We got something on our Metra service updates about a systemwide signal outage on UP that delayed Metra here for a half hour or so. When the trains got moving, Metra issued a bulletin, thus:
Inbound and Outbound Trains Are On the Move 15-35 Minute Delay The Union Pacific has restored the signal problems inbound and outbound trains are currently on the move and operating approximately 15 to 35 minutes behind schedule.
Glad to know that the problems were so easily brought back...I hope the solutions were that easy!
tree68 Paul - was one of them in green and black? It might still say "Adirondack" on the sides...
No luck today, either, despite being under or within 100 yds. of that railroad overpass bridge about 6 of 8 hours. Only thing rail-related that I saw was a hi-rail pick-up truck going across a signalized intersection ahead of me . . .
PDN - We leased it while it was running on our lines. When the owner decided to sell, we couldn't come up with the cash. GVT did, so now it's theirs.
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