Paul D. North Jr. (7-29):
Here are the promised photos of the Metrolink flyover in El Monte (CA). A cursory estimate suggests it has 3% inclines.
Continued …
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.
Continued Reply to Paul D. North Jr. (7-29):
More views:
Have fun ponder that flyover, Paul.
If it is 3%, it is greater than the grades on Tehachapi!
It would also explain why I’ve never seen a UP freight on it. UP trainmen carry bulletins and whatever else they must have to operate trains over that flyover, but I’ve yet to see such.
Take care,
K.P.
K.P., thanks much for those photos and info !!!
From: http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?1,199088 (last post):
"The grades on the San Bernardino and Redondo Jct. flyovers are 3%, the grade on the San Gabriel River/El Monte is 2%. These are the effective grades considering curve resistance, the actual grades are slightly less. There are no prohibitions on freight use, just speed restrictions in consideration of braking on those grades."
From http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,1374619 (about the middle of this thread):
"The two Metrolink grades of 3% are on the Redondo Jct. and San Bernardino (CA) flyovers. There is a segment of BNSF track in Cajon Pass that is a little over 3% that the SW Chief uses, and of course the Chief also goes over 3% grades at Glorietta and Raton passes in New Mexico. Steeper grades are very difficult to manage unless you have traction of most of the wheels like transit operators and keep speed very low downhill."
Maybe more later.
- Paul North.
K. P. Harrier It would also explain why I’ve never seen a UP freight on it. UP trainmen carry bulletins and whatever else they must have to operate trains over that flyover, but I’ve yet to see such. Take care, K.P.
While not at Redondo, I have a photo of a BNSF freight going over the similar and similarly steep flyover in San Bernadino.
This was in June 2013 and the train was a mixed freight with boxcars, pulpwood cars, tank cars and coil steel cars, and was hauled by five ES44s, I think a mix of DCs and AC4s...
In a dozen or so visits to San Bernadino over the years, I've only seen this once.
Since the flyover crosses the BNSF main, I'm not sure what was going on.
But I took a photo to prove that it happened...
M636C
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=158757&nseq=52
Presumably the ramp vertical-curves from zero to 3% then immediately back from 3% to zero. A half-mile averaging 1.5% gains them 39.6 ft and presumably they don't need more than that.
M636CWhile not at Redondo, I have a photo of a BNSF freight going over the similar and similarly steep flyover in San Bernadino. This was in June 2013 and the train was a mixed freight with boxcars, pulpwood cars, tank cars and coil steel cars, and was hauled by five ES44s, I think a mix of DCs and AC4s... In a dozen or so visits to San Bernadino over the years, I've only seen this once. Since the flyover crosses the BNSF main, I'm not sure what was going on. But I took a photo to prove that it happened...
Show us your photo!
BNSF has traffic rights on the ex-ATSF Metrolink San Gabriel sub and branches thereof. These locals are mostly known for servicing the Coors-Miller brewery in Irwindale, but it sounds like you caught the exception. The coil cars were probably destined for California Steel in Fontana.
Now, time for a directly related Tehachapi post to get back on topic .....
Links to my Google Maps ---> Sunset Route overview, SoCal metro, Yuma sub, Gila sub, SR east of Tucson, BNSF Northern Transcon and Southern Transcon *** Why you should support Ukraine! ***
timz http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=158757&nseq=52 Presumably the ramp vertical-curves from zero to 3% then immediately back from 3% to zero. A half-mile averaging 1.5% gains them 39.6 ft and presumably they don't need more than that.
Mindful of MikeF90's post above, I'm thinking of starting a new thread on the Forum here on the subject of fly-overs, flying junctions, similar steeply-graded grade crossing separations such as Colton Crossing, Sunset Ave. & Valley Blvd., etc. (Last year I submitted to AREMA an abstract for a proposed paper on these, but it wasn't accepted - maybe next year ?)
At the start, I anticipate that links to K.P's previous photos in his several long-running construction threads, and those such as in the link above, would be the majority of the material, but more could be added as it gains interest. For example, the Portland MAX Light Rail's alignment and grade at the Gateway / NE 99th St. Transit Center Station (I-84 and I-205) are just short of a roller-coaster; and there's one on SEPTA's line to the Philly airport, etc.
I could also post the results of my thoughts and some calculations I've worked up regarding the clearances needed; the elevation gain from grades to achieve that; the vertical curves, their rate of change, and the implications for train-handling; the Tractive Effort needed for such a ramp (the simplicity and terms of the resulting formula might well surprise you), and the effect of coupler strength limits; the HP/ ton needed for various speeds up the ramp, the resulting short-time loading, and total HP needed; adding horizontal curves to actually accomplish the crossing-over to all that; the implications for supporting structure types that result (example: avoid curved beams), and which are well-illustrated in some of K.P.'s photos.
Let me know either here or in a PM if you have any interest in such a thread.
I'm also going to ask Drew Halverson - he runs the "Trackside with Trains" bi-weekly photo series here - to do one of his contests on the same subject(s), if he hasn't already.
An Intertwined Catch-All Posting Series
Part “A” (of A-C)
The Kern Jct. Area
There has been some question about the future signaling between Kern Jct. and the Quantico area, particularly railroad south of the present hand-throw crossover at Quantico, at the new universal crossovers arrangement by Oswell St. Thereat, the future Main 2 south side northbound signal was envisioned as needing three heads, but, from source reports, UP seems to be adding another CP at the Main 1 south switch of Buttonwillow Branch …
Previously shown
… BETWEEN Kern Jct. and Quantico, thus eliminating the need for a three headed mast signal by Oswell St.
Because of a quirky future situation at Kern Jct., however, at this point it still is unclear if the south side northbound Main 1 signal will have a three headed mast or not. Stay tuned on that one …
Paul D. North Jr. (8-2):
Thanks for the grade reference.
One “flyover” and reports about it seem to be at variance with K.P.’s past onsite visuals of it, namely, the one at Redondo Jct. I believe that flyover is used only by Metrolink and Amtrak, and I suppose blue moon BNSF business passenger trains.
So, I don’t know where the steep aspect comes from as it looks pretty level to me.
Hey, Paul, you may be interested in the reply to M636C in the next post.
Part “B” (of A-C)
Memo to M636C (8-2):
That Metrolink flyover in San Bernardino (CA) that you saw a BNSF train on ONLY once has such BNSF trains as a rather common occurrence, though I haven’t seen such of late. The Metrolink schedule is quite full, so maybe (“maybe”) BNSF runs their freight trains at night and early morning these days before the fleet-runs hog the line.
The Metrolink Flyover in San Bernardino is a maverick situation of sorts. On its east side is the long downward 2.2% grade of Cajon Pass. On the other hand, BNSF trains coming east (from the west) have a downward grade also, probably at least a mile. So, from either direction, the downward weights of those freight trains push them up and over the rather steep flyover. Not a bad arrangement, for sure.
Part “C” (of A-C)
Memo to M636C (8-2) Continued:
On Tehachapi Pass, southward uphill trains early on encounter a downward stretch for just a bit past Sandcut. That too has its own train handling quirks. The below photo looks northbound, where southbound trains coming towards the camera are downgrade!
Anyway, from Bakersfield all the way south to West Colton Yard the line has its own operating profile. At Bench, on the Mojave Sub’s south end, the old Pacific Electric line from Los Angeles to San Bernardino came into San Bernardino and did some street running. Above, a discussion of the western downgrade approach to the San Bernardino Flyover was mentioned. Part (“part”) of that west side of San Bernardino downgrade was caused by the Santa Fe (now Metrolink) having to go over that PE line. In the below link, the PE line (most of which is now all gone) ran sideways across the view. The Palmdale Cutoff (now all the Mojave Sub and over Tehachapi) is the top to bottom track. The Santa Fe Super Chief route (now Metrolink) is the angled track.
http://binged.it/1KPtPNk
OK, as MikeF90 suggested, let’s all get back on topic …at least close to it. Whoops … Just one more off topic reply …
Paul D. North Jr. (8-5):
A flyovers thread would be a boon for the forum, and have a wide appeal. At least it would seem so. There are things happening in the Chicago area flyover-wise, but one hears very little about them at the forum. A thread started by you, Paul, may inspire others to make us all aware of flyovers we haven’t heard about, even if they can’t contribute photos, at least people here at the forum would be aware. As it is now, we are all pretty much in the dark.
To All: Unbelievable Stories Are Just That!
The history of the Southern California area has much the younger set of railfans may not be aware of. Even Tehachapi has a history, like the big earthquake in 1952 that partially collapsed Tunnel 5 railroad south of Bealville, and caused Southern Pacific in 13 days to build a shoofly around the mountain that Tunnel 5 is in. That trackless shoofly route today is still visible if one known where to look for it.
It has been said that in that Tunnel 5 collapse a big, very deep chasm was created, and it had to be filled to relay the track within the tunnel. The trouble is, no amount of dirt could fill it, it has been said, so a bridge was built over that deep chasm. That rather unbelievable story is just that. It is NOT true. If a trainman says it is true, ask them to photograph it and email you a copy. Truss K.P., they never will get around to sending you a picture because such a photo can’t be taken. There simply is NO chasm, nor has there ever been a bridge within Tunnel 5.
So, this series has covered a lot of ground, and some sort of non-thread topical aspects of railroading and its history as well to address side matters, but an effort has been made to link it all together, which broadens all of our awareness, especially as it may be related to Tehachapi and the two-tracking effort currently take place on the Hill.
K.P. has heard that the new second track’s alignment around Tunnel 10 (just south of the Loop) is being dug down. It is unknown how deep or how much progress has been made, but K.P. is desirous of getter back to that area to photo-document it within a month – if the high gas prices on the west coast don’t bankrupt him first …
Best,
KP do not think you will get any rest from pictures novels for at least 10 years.
http://www.rtands.com/index.php/track-maintenance/on-track-maintenance/ace-provides-grade-separation-updates.html?channel=
Quoting K.P:"One “flyover” and reports about it seem to be at variance with K.P.’s past onsite visuals of it, namely, the one at Redondo Jct. I believe that flyover is used only by Metrolink and Amtrak, and I suppose blue moon BNSF business passenger trains."
Was there such a train run almost a week ago when there was a blue moon? Will we have to wait several years now before the next blue moon before there will be one?
Johnny
Replies
blue streak 1 (8-6):
While your post was semi-related to the recent diversion postings in this thread, it really has an application to the “Sunset Route Two-Tracking Updates” thread. So, blue streak 1, I’ve taken the liberty of copying your post and pasting it in the ‘Sunset’ thread.
Deggesty (8-6):
Below is a photo of an invisible BNSF ‘blue moon’ special I was privileged to ride. Every train we met the crew didn’t wave. Nobody could see us. Only the DS’s between Bakersfield and Los Angeles knew where we were because of their track occupancy displays.
My fingers are crossed. (Hehehe.)
MikeF90 …
I think ONE OF US needs to go up on Tehachapi, take a few photos, and then post them. That might be the sure fire way to focus everyone on the thread’s theme … Shall we cast lots to determine which one of us should go up on the Hill?
Take care all,
The Tunnel 10 Area
Word has been received that the digging down for the second main’s cut by Tunnel 10 is about a fifth of the way dug down.
Anybody know of a handy-dandy map of the portion of this route - esecially the tunnel numbers and the locations of each of the siding ends, etc. - that's the subject of and been mentioned in this thread ?? (apologies if it's been posted before and I missed it . . . )
If not - hey MikeF90, can you add it to your fine interactive 'pinned' Google maps of the SoCal region ?
If you need a source, here's one - and I'd be glad to send it to you:
Here's another one, but I can't recall if it has the same quality of detailed map:
Paul_D_North_JrAnybody know of a handy-dandy map of the portion of this route - esecially the tunnel numbers and the locations of each of the siding ends, etc. - that's the subject of and been mentioned in this thread ?? (apologies if it's been posted before and I missed it . . . )
Yah, you missed it: http://g.co/maps/g7k8e
Can't fit all of my maps in my sig .....
The Altamont Press California timetable #20 (last one, no updates anticipated) is a good start for data combined with ATCSMon layouts, employee TT's and charts. This post and others elsewhere update all of the upgrades, mainly related to CTC conversion. Thanks to all!
Update as of Thursday, September 17, 2015
About the Tunnel 10 Area
To CAZEPHYR (8-13) and all … K.P. has received word that the cut north of and alongside Tunnel 10 is about 60% cut down.
At this time it is unknown where that 60% has gone to, as sources have said NO grading has taken place for a second track between Walong and Marcel.
Update as of Thursday, October 1, 2015
Kern Jct. and Quantico
Reportedly, the three cantilever signal structures are now up and in place at Kern Jct. and Quantico, but the signals thereon have not been activated yet. The bypass track between those locations (and north of) still needs to be finished.
An ONSITE Review!
On Friday, October 2, 2015, the construction involving the Tunnel 10 area was visited. Dramatic progress had transpired on the effort to two-track the Walong-Marcel stretch by digging down a path for a tunnel-less second main. One surprising thing that was seen was, because of the digging out of a path for the second main, is that the cut was so wide at the top with about 45 degree angled sides, and NOT almost straight down sides as in the promotion photos. Also, as viewed from the narrow winding mountain roadway EAST of the tunnel, the far side of the Tehachapi Loop is now visible!
In track related to downtown Bakersfield’s Kern Jct. and nearby, all the new signaling there appears to have been erected, including three cantilever structures. UP of late has been notorious for combining CP’s, or otherwise reducing their numbers. But in Bakersfield, they have actually added two CP’s! One location was even on a branch!
A report on the visit’s findings will be worked up for the forum between a few days and a week.
Update as of Friday, October 3, 2015
Progress on the Activities on and off the Hill
Part I (of I-VIII, Overall I-XV)
South of the old high and wide detector at M.P. 363.8, about half a mile to the railroad south, are two new structures for high and wide detection. This northbound looking photo may (“may”) give the reason why two structures instead of one were erected. Of course, why this location was chosen is unclear.
The old Monolith CENTER siding began somewhere in this area, in front of or behind the camera. The photo was shot at the crossing gates equipped Williamson Road grade crossing.
There is a nice monument pointing in the town’s direction for visitors. Nice semi-three dimensional F-unit!
Now we arrive at the Marcel-Walong Tehachapi Loop area.
Continued in Part II
Part II (of I-VIII, Overall I-XV)
From the east side, on the southern aligned roadway, the progress in cutting a cut is clearly seen now.
A slanted cut goes right over Tunnel 10.
Equipment working … Above the tunnel portal, note that fencing keeping loose rocks from landing on trains.
Continued in Part III
Part III (of I-VIII, Overall I-XV)
K.P. is unsure if bed for the second track is present or if it is a vehicle pathway.
In the last photo above, it kind of looks like the future track will take a different grading route.
Continued in Part IV
Part IV (of I-VIII, Overall I-XV)
By the north switch of the Marcel siding, equipment is working below track level.
From a more easterly (railroad south) vantage point:
We now leave the Loop area and head for Bakersfield, which is timetable north of the Loop, but physically northwest of it.
At the Morningside Drive grade crossing (M.P. 317.57, Kern Jct. is at M.P. 313.6, almost four miles to the railroad north), partially activated intermediate signals are present.
The new “two-track” type signals were activated in ONLY one direction per track, effectively retaining the line’s long, historic “double-track” signaling status (each track signaled in only one direction).
Because a universal crossover is being put in a couple of miles ahead (railroad north), the above rather new mast signals are on borrowed time, as the signals will eventually have to be capable of displaying yellow over yellow.
Continued in Part V
Part V (of I-VIII, Overall I-XV)
In our timetable northward travel, we soon arrive at a presently unnamed (at least placard-wise) and unfinished new CP.
Just above, a mystery track with wider ties at each end is on site. The Oswell Street overpass in the distance is on the photo upper left. At this point in time it is unclear if this new CP will be identified as CP OSWELL or CP QUANTICO, the latter about a half a mile to the north, where the traditional location of a hand operated crossover and southern entrance switch is at to the Bakersfield Yard.
From up on that Oswell Street overpass, one of two crossovers has been installed.
Looking railroad north from the Oswell Street overpass:
A semi-side view of the new north southbound signals by the Oswell Street overpass:
Continued in Part VI
Part VI (of I-VIII, Overall I-XV)
A Break from Tradition … and the Sunset Route and Elsewhere
With cantilever type signaling, most often involving a siding in two-track territory, traditionally UP has tended to split the mainline signals support method, with one main track with a mast signal, the other main with a signal on a cantilever structure. As an example: CP SP648 BERTRAM by the Salton Sea in Southern California.
Above, Main 1 is on the right, Main 2 on the left. The siding is on the far left background. Looking the other way, eastbound, Main 1 has a mast signal.
BNSF, on the other hand, such as at Goffs, CA, tends to put both mains’ signals on a cantilever structure, and the siding’s signal on a mast.
But, as seen with the cantilever signals in the Bakersfield area, specifically by Oswell Street, both mains’ signals is on the cantilever structure! This break from tradition may be for the ease of train crews in identifying which track is which and the signals for those tracks. Things start getting real thorny now signal-wise more to the railroad to the north.
Continued in Part VII
Part VII (of I-VIII, Overall I-XV)
By Salton Sea Still
Because of the Bertram siding, CP SP648 BERTRAM has TWO CP boxes, a west one …
… and east one.
Continued in Part VIII
Part VIII (of I-VIII, Overall I-XV)
Back to the Oswell-Quantico Area
Because of a siding (“siding”) that starts by the Oswell Street overpass in the Quantico area, two CP boxes are also being installed. The north box (right):
The south box:
The far left mast signal is for that “siding” whereas both signals on the cantilever structure are for the two mains.
That “siding” will officially be understood by trainmen as the “Bypass.” Bypass? There will be more information later when we get to the Kern Jct. material.
----------
Continued in Parts IX-XV, scheduled to be posted Saturday, October 10, 2015 by 7:00 P.M. Pacific Daylight time
K.P.:
As someone who prefers the drama of a tunnel over that of an open cut, I was a bit disappointed that there was no twin tunnel put in next to Tunnel 10. But, as your photos document, there was a great pay-off in the Loop itself being suddenly visible within the cut. How serendipitous!
So, it would show that change can have unexpected benefits, and you were one of the first to capture it on camera-- as it would appear that the view of the Loop (from your position on the road) would have just opened up within the past days or weeks.
You also got the Railroaders' Memorial at the top of the Loop, but that might have been peeking over the ridge before the grading began.
Thanks!
--John
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