trespassing injuries by rail fans

[gabe]

I really wish I had the time to locate the exact post that I am premising my question with; but, does anyone remember a post stating something to the effect that general rail injuries/accidents are diminishing but injuries involving trespassers are up? I seem to remember the post being from a credible source.

I find this to be very curious. I wonder what the ratio between rail fans/kids - general trespassers is?

I have a hard time imagining rail fans getting hurt. I raise this point because it appears to me that various railroads are looking at this statistic and are more actively pushing railfans away from their property, even to the point of chasing people away who aren't even trespassing--I assume in an effort to minimize lawsuits. I get the feeling that railfans are not the sourse of these injuries and are being victimized by the foolishness of those with other motives.

I remember when I was younger (less than 14 years ago) and my Dad and I would walk on the railroad tracks and get the friendliest waves from engineers. Once, they even gave us a ride and let me drive the train to the end of the siding. Now that times have changed, I obey trespassing signs but long for the days when I could take such walks, etc.

Does anyone have any thoughts?

Gabe

[tree68]

[2c] While I would hope that railfans are generally a safe lot, fairly knowledgeable about the dangers that surround railroads, it isn't hard to picture an otherwise sane foamer (is that an oxymoron?) doing something less than appropriate to get that "special" picture or a better view, or whatever.

That said, I agree with Mark. We've discussed the trespass issue numerous times, and the bottom line is that someone on RR property without permission is trespassing, and if they get killed, it's a trespasser fatality. One step outside a public ROW (ie, a crossing, station, etc) onto RR property would constitute trespassing, and I daresay most railfans have been guilty of same.

It does make sense, though, that careful review of the cases would probably allow most observers to determine a general breakdown of railfan vs non-railfan. I'd also hazard a guess that the percentages would be pretty lopsided on the side of the non-railfan.

[gabe]

I recognize the impossibility and problems of allowing rail fans to trespass and am not suggesting that they be allowed to do so. However, my allusion goes to a fear much more basic: that railraods see railfans as liabilities.

My sylogism looks something like this:

(1) People who trespass and are injured file law suits. Even if these lawsuits are not successful--to say nothing of when they are successful--, it nonetheless costs railroads considerable money to defend them.

(2) Railfans have incentive to trespass.

(3) Less rail fans = less trespassers = less lawsuits = greater profits.

I don't know how much this thinking affects railroads, but I get the feeling terrorism is not the only reason railroads chase away fans. I realize that when people see rail fans being allowed to trespass, the protection provided by the railroad's no-trespassing sign becomes moot; I am not suggesting that railroads invite rail fans onto their property.

I am, however, wondering if railroads see and actualize a benefit from discouraging railfans well beyond the range of the no-trespassing sign. I have read in Trains and have heard many stories of rail fans being asked to go away while being performing perfectly legal activities on public property--my favorite was a farmer friend of my father's watching trains on his own property and being asked to leave, that didn't go over well. I know terorism is one of the realities of the modern world that causes this phenomenon, but I also think tort liability is another and, perhaps, the more significant.

Gabe

[edblysard]

Thanks Mark,
As you may have noticed, I have a mouth full of words anyway!

Tort reform?
Please, today, or sooner if you can...


As for other railroads, like Mark, I cant speak for them, but as for the policy here at the PTRA, we do not activly discourage fans, as long as the remain on public property.
But we do have, and enforce a zero tolerance policy.
If you dont work here, or are not employeed by one of our subcontractors, stay off property.

We run through a lot of low income, inner city commnities, and industrial areas, so tresspassing is common.
People dump their junk, old iceboxes, tires, trash, even cars on our tracks and ROW.
Kids try to hitch a ride, or cross moving trains quite often.
Shoot, we even had a threesome of professional hobos once.

We have a lot of schools around the neighborhoods we run through, and our Operation Lifesaver folks make regular presentations at them.

As of today, our police force has issued 72 citations for tresspass, had 41 arrest for criminal tresspass.
None, so far, has involved any fans.

Because we are a small road, we know most of the fans by sight, some by name.
Shoot, I have been known to take a person's camera into the yard to get them photo of a car.

But, never would I, or any of the rest of us, allow a fan on property, without first checking with the trainmaster on duty.

This stuff is just way to dangerous.

So I can state that, at the PTRA, the railfan tresspasser percent is zero.

Ed

[DPD1]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard


We run through a lot of low income, inner city commnities, and industrial areas, so tresspassing is common.
People dump their junk, old iceboxes, tires, trash, even cars on our tracks and ROW.
Kids try to hitch a ride, or cross moving trains quite often.
Shoot, we even had a threesome of professional hobos once.

We have a lot of schools around the neighborhoods we run through, and our Operation Lifesaver folks make regular presentations at them.

As the size of urban areas rapidly expand outward, I would think maybe that has something to do with the increase in trespassing accidents. Obviously if you have more people near the tracks, you will have more on the tracks, and then more accidents. The NW Chicago area is a perfect example. The EJ&E line that ran behind my house when I was a kid rarely had trains, and the other nearby lines were surrounded by corn fields. Those same lines now have way more trains, and thousands of tract homes around them. So in just one area, that's potentially hundreds of more kids/people that might mess around on the tracks.

Dave
Los Angeles, CA
-Rail Radio Online-Home of the "TrainTenna" RR Monitoring Antenna-
http://eje.railfan.net/railradioonline

[Anonymous]

Based upon my own observations, railroads are generally pretty ambivalent to railfans and many railroaders think of them as a bit odd as a group. When there are questions of security raised or other circumstances that draw attention to the issue, of course railroads respond to it in varying degrees. Look at the current flap in NJ over the NJT crack down on photographers that has been widely reported.

LC

[DTomajko]

As a railfan and a railroad subcontractor employee, I have been astounded by the lack of common sense some fans display. I work in an intermodal terminal and have had to contend with "visitors" on occassion. Once I found a father and his small son climbing on the empty cars at the west end of the ramp. There was no derail & blue flag protection in place,like when we're working, and due to the curve in the yard, if I hadn't driven by in the course of my duties, who knows how long they might have been there. Other times, I've had folks drive right up to the packer while I'm working and just sit there watching. Now I don't know about you, but I have no interest being near a machine capable of lifting 40 tons without permission or appropriate training. Maybe all these years spent working around trucks has left me wary of large equipment. Also, when the visitor is approached & informed of their transgression & the need to leave, I'm usually treated with anger and harsh words. I am just doing my job as defined by the railroad & my employer, so I don't think I deserve this reaction. I have never given anyone nothing but respect when approached, even by local law enforcement on public property. I do realize that these folks are in the minority, but that doesn't it any make it any better. If we have developed a reputation as a tough group among the local fans, then I don't regret any of my actions. If I can keep one person from getting hurt on the property, I'll gladly accept any bad reputation I receive. Besides that, you'll be happy to encounter me before the NS police. Lets all use a little more common sense out there and stay safe. Remember rule #1: Take all your parts home intact at the end of the day. Good luck and stay safe.

[tree68]

DTomajko's comments explained to me in a flash why a RR would be anti-fan. The only fans they really notice are the ones that attract attention, as in by trespassing. If I'm fanning sitting in a parking lot, out of the way, odds are the crews won't even know I'm there...

[Overmod]

Offhand, I can't remember an instance where I saw a railfan hurt by railroad activity. This despite seeing and hearing about some remarkably stupid activity -- climbing signal poles, standing on an active main track while filming, etc. The reports that I hear mainly involve people walking on or crossing the track without looking -- often, probably, suicides. Modern car construction, including air bags, may be improving the survivability of grade-crossing collisions even as the absolute incidence of collisions is going down). Employee safety is improving... in part, I suspect, because there are fewer of them exposed to places they were traditionally injured.

I have not seen, in the discussion so far, any indication that railfans are viewed with disfavor because some of their number are hardly better than vandals -- the folks who remove builder's plates from equipment, for example, or mess with switchstands or signalling. How much of this is just "anti-foamer" prejudice, and how much is based on railroads' experience, is something I can't answer.

I do know that in the past I've had little trouble being allowed on railroad property to take photographs IF I secured a release... on Penn Central in Philadelphia, IIRC, it was obtained from the Real Estate department. This (a) absolved them of responsibility if you did something dumb and got hurt, and (b) let them find you if something important wound up broken, tampered with, or missing... I find it strange that with all the discussion of how railroad police and security are 'cracking down' on casual railfan activity, there hasn't been an extension of the permit process for bona fide enthusiasts.

[JoeKoh]

No Railroad now would give anyone a release of any kind.Its like in school takes a couple of people to ruin the feildtrip for everyone else.Take pictures leave footprints.Be polite.
stay safe
Joe

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by JoeKoh

No Railroad now would give anyone a release of any kind

True for the Class 1's but some shortlines around here let people (including myself) get releases.

[CShaveRR]

I'm a railfan, and I haven't deliberately injured any trespassers lately...

[AntonioFP45]

Saddening and sobering how times have changed.

To this day I'm very grateful for the friendly attitudes of the Seabaord Coast Line railroad crews I encountered as a teen in the late 70s. It was so easy to stroll into the giant Uceta/Yeoman faciltiy, go up to (but not inside) the engine service facility and "wear out your shutter finger. Anyone asked questions, I responsed "I'm railfanning" and usually got something like a friendly "O.K, just be careful" and that was it! Even got a few cab rides with the pictures to show it!

Today, with "wacko" lawsuits spiraling out of control, rude rowdy kids not being disciplined by parents, and terrorism, it's understandable why Class 1s have gotten to be so "tough" on "Johnny Railfan and his camera".

[ericsp]

Here are a couple of examples of stupidity.

One time when I was at the Tehachapi Loop a new railfan told me he had just walked through the tunnel. Yikes.

At a local two year college there is a parking lot on the other side of the BNSF tracks from most of the campus. Of the past few years a few idiots tried to walk across the tracks and where hit by a train, always an Amtrak. Now they are building a multimillion dollar pedestrian underpass. All so that people who have alledgedly graduated from high school don't have to learn common sense. The same city has a problem with red light runners. Coincidence?

[Anonymous]

How close is tresspassing?

[Anonymous]

Since post 9/11 I usually dont go on railroad property at all. Especially after reading the article in Trains magazine about railroads and railfans. People I think need to really think about what they are doing if they get hurt the railroad is not liable. I have been able to get many good legal views of my favorite railroads and havnt had a problem. People just need to mind the no tresspassing signs and take care. Pictures of our favorite railroads' equipment is not worth your life or limb. Like we say in the fire business buildings can be replaced people cant.

Kraig

[tree68]

A little telephoto goes a long way.

[DTomajko]

It seems to me that one problem with society is that very few people accept responsiblity. For example: "The car went out of control" or "The Twinkies made me do it" or " My Dad didn't hug me enough". It is always someone else's fault. Liability issues are so becoming ingrained in daily thought that the mechanics at the ramp have to ask drivers to leave the garage while working on their trailer. It is such a common issue in life today that there is rarely any argument and everyone usually quickly understands the policy. It isn't enough anymore to be concerned with your personal safety, you now must pay attention to everybody else too. Ericsp, I too have seen people walking into a mainline tunnel, Galitzin Tunnel on Conrail. I have also seen two fans stand IN the diamond at Tolono ,Illinois watching for oncoming trains. It's kind of like blaming the tiger for biting you while your head is in its mouth. The tiger was just being a tiger. What is required is for a little more common sense to be displayed by everyone. Remember, railfanning is supposed to be fun, not a hazardous pasttime. Good luck and stay safe.

[Randy Stahl]

I hate being yelled at by railfans because I absent mindedly wondered into thier picture....while doing my job. I don't see as many idiots as much any more, then again I havn't been on any fan trips for a long time. Maybe they all got bumped off ??The best way to get on or around RR property is to be accompanied by a RR employee, preferably one with a radio. The CN has a strict policy on tresspassers but the rules relax a bit if the visitor is safety briefed and accompanyed by an employee.
Randy

[Randy Stahl]

I would like to take a moment to remember 10 railfans that were killed on labor day weekend 1950, during the NMRA convention in Milwaukee. All were aboard the lightweight interurban car.
Randy

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Randy Stahl

I would like to take a moment to remember 10 railfans that were killed on labor day weekend 1950, during the NMRA convention in Milwaukee. All were aboard the lightweight interurban car.
Randy

Ouch...

LC

[MP57313]

In the 70s/80s I recall reading about two railfan fatalities (in Trains or other mags):

1. A photographer has set up his equipment on one track of a double track Southern mainline, waiting for a train on the other track. It was foggy in the area...you can guess what happened...the train appeared on the "wrong" track. The photographer tried to save his equipment but was not fast enough and was killed.
2. Cab ride on the Boston & Maine (I think it was pre-Guilford). The train was involved in a fatal collision where the engine crew and unauthorized railfan were killed...

[Mookie]

And this seems to be a good place to say that I watched a car with 3-4 small children in it, man driving, probably Dad - go around gates and cross 6 tracks with a slow coal train moving toward the crossing. Was not at an angle to get a good look at license, nor close enough to run out and attack the car. But it did go through my mind that he was teaching his children.....by example.

Mookie

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Randy Stahl

I would like to take a moment to remember 10 railfans that were killed on labor day weekend 1950, during the NMRA convention in Milwaukee. All were aboard the lightweight interurban car.
Randy

Lacking further information, at least it sounds like they were supposed to be in the interurban....

[AntonioFP45]

Hey guys.

A while back one of you posted that up in New York City a couple of kids decided to skate board on top of a freight car and one or both were electrocuted when the catenary wire was grabbed to prevent a fall. [B)][D)][:O] They somehow survived. The punks along with their parents turn around and sue Amtrak for lack of No Trespassing signs. I thought that "Ignorance of the Law is no excuse!" The judge in this case should fine the parents instead! What's become of this case?

[Randy Stahl]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tree68

QUOTE: Originally posted by Randy Stahl

I would like to take a moment to remember 10 railfans that were killed on labor day weekend 1950, during the NMRA convention in Milwaukee. All were aboard the lightweight interurban car.
Randy

Lacking further information, at least it sounds like they were supposed to be in the interurban....

Correct...They were supposed to be in the interurban. I forgot to bring it up as my own topic on labor day.
In my job I see the results of tresspasser fatalitys, trains do not discriminate, they can kill anyone with equal efficiency.
Randy

[gabe]

Thanks for all of the responses to my posting. Just a few remarks:

(1) Regarding the boiler explosion: given the facts as Mark described them to us, I would be shocked shocked shocked if the plaintiff did not win that one. That does not necessarily mean I think it is the right outcome.

Even if the railfan doesn't have the right to be on the property in the first place, railroads' duties toward people on their property can become elevated when their activities can be construed as inviting people on their property or (more rarely) merely knowing of the presence of trespassers on their property.

(2) This is merely an opinion--I am not claiming to be authoritative. But, with regard to Tort Reform and some of the lawsuits that were characterized by posters as frivolous, the successful lawsuits are not really the problem. Everyone hears about the lady getting burnt at McDonalds and thinks that is indicative of most successful lawsuits. It is not. In my opinion, the vast majority of cases where the plaintiff recovers, recovery was deserved--however, the amount of recovery may be another matter.

The problem is the unsuccessful lawsuits. Many plaintiff's attorneys practice law by attrition. They know only a small percentage of claims are likely to be successful, so they will file virtually any suit with the idea that the more lines in the water, the more likely they are to catch a fish. This is not easy for any corporation to deal with and it can cost a great deal of money to defend against.

(3) With regard to passes, I would be surprised if any company allowed people to come onto their property. Trespasers may not be able to tell if someone else on the property is there by permission. This can give the impression that trespassing is allowed. These are the kind of holes plaintiff's lawyers dream about.

Gabe

[passengerfan]

While waiting for a train to come along in Arizona I was bitten by a rattlesnake once and I wasn't even trespassing I would have preferred they use a watchdog like everybody else.

[richardy]

I totally understand and agree railfans must not trespass on railorad property. It is sad the times have changed; during the 80's & 90's, before BNSF, I had a very good relationship with the special agents of the ATSF throughout Kansas and Oklahoma. It only took checking in to get access to anything within reason although I was never able to get a ride. Of course they were using me too for one more set of eyes to help them observe the railroad, they were the best guys and it was a pleasure for me to help them.

It concerns me when we hear of railfans that are on public property or private property with permission that are told to move on. We as taxpayers own the public property and I'm sure the private property owner thought he owned his property. I guess we have to start carrying a plat for every step we make but it appears that may not matter. At that point the railroad and the police are being allowed to overstep their authority.

[espeefoamer]

Something I heard on the radio last night, It's 99% of lawyers that give the rest a bad name[(-D]!