Looking back at the history of building railroads, the men who built them really did accomplish some unbelievable feats. My personal favorite is when they laid 10 miles of track in 1869 in one day! A record that still stands today. The nearly 8 mile long Cascade tunnel was built drilling from multiple positions including crews starting at the middle and blasting their way towards the ends. When finished it was less than a 1/4 inch off.
I also look back at the Pacific northwest logging railroads and the unbelievable trestles they used to build some of them involving millions of feet of lumber. Rails built in the early 1900's are still in use today on short lines and tourist railroads and in good condition. They sure don't build them like they used to.
......I look at even more "normal" locations and still wonder how some of these routes were engineered. A small example: Here in central Indiana, the NS from Muncie to Alexandria...roughly northwest to Alex., is tangent. This is bacially flat with rolling small hills mixed in....And perhaps, 12 to 15 miles.
Perhaps this construction was done near a hundred years ago....What would be the first basics in information for these builders to "know" just what direction {exactly}, Alexandria was from Munice....? Riding up on a "hill" on a horse, "Oh I can almost see it, it's that way"....?? And so on. And of course one had to know if it really was possible to build a straight route that distance with out finding expensive obstacles in the way.....and so on.
Quentin
This has little or nothing to do with railroad engineering, but should you ever find yourself in Cripple Creek Colorado visit the Cripple Creek Museum, it's in the old Colorado Midland depot. In the mining exhibit there's a turn of the 20th Century three-dimensional map of one of the local gold mines. It's done on stacked glass plates and the detail is astonishing. My brother, who has a degree in civil engineering from the Air Force Academy, was amazed by it. "Yeah", I said, "and don't bet it isn't accurate either!"
I've been a student of history my whole life and let me tell you, NEVER underestimate the sophistication of the old-timers, they'll surprise you every time!
Modelcar ......I look at even more "normal" locations and still wonder how some of these routes were engineered. A small example: Here in central Indiana, the NS from Muncie to Alexandria...roughly northwest to Alex., is tangent. This is bacially flat with rolling small hills mixed in....And perhaps, 12 to 15 miles. Perhaps this construction was done near a hundred years ago....What would be the first basics in information for these builders to "know" just what direction {exactly}, Alexandria was from Munice....? Riding up on a "hill" on a horse, "Oh I can almost see it, it's that way"....?? And so on. And of course one had to know if it really was possible to build a straight route that distance with out finding expensive obstacles in the way.....and so on.
Man on a horse, survey altimeter, compass, pedometer, field book and pen........GO!
D&RG's recon survey books from Palmer and McMurtrie still exist along with those of Frank Case (UP); Ted Judah (CP); Grenville Dodge (UP & D&FW); Wigglesworth (DNO, CM), Sumner (DNP, CB&Q, EPNE) and a few others.
Unfortunately, others were thrown away by libraries and museums because they had no clue what they had.
mudchicken Modelcar ......I look at even more "normal" locations and still wonder how some of these routes were engineered. A small example: Here in central Indiana, the NS from Muncie to Alexandria...roughly northwest to Alex., is tangent. This is bacially flat with rolling small hills mixed in....And perhaps, 12 to 15 miles. Perhaps this construction was done near a hundred years ago....What would be the first basics in information for these builders to "know" just what direction {exactly}, Alexandria was from Munice....? Riding up on a "hill" on a horse, "Oh I can almost see it, it's that way"....?? And so on. And of course one had to know if it really was possible to build a straight route that distance with out finding expensive obstacles in the way.....and so on. Thats what the recon survey was for.... Man on a horse, survey altimeter, compass, pedometer, field book and pen........GO! D&RG's recon survey books from Palmer and McMurtrie still exist along with those of Frank Case (UP); Ted Judah (CP); Grenville Dodge (UP & D&FW); Wigglesworth (DNO, CM), Sumner (DNP, CB&Q, EPNE) and a few others. Unfortunately, others were thrown away by libraries and museums because they had no clue what they had.
Thanks Mudchicken....Do I understand intially, the team would have to go {by compass}, and identify locations along the way in the general direction the compass was pointing to, and eventually arrive at their destination, and then.....from the established marks created along the way using the compass....Align an exact tangant line from one end to the other, with the suverying equipment working from the pre established marks.....??
Quentin,
The geographic locations (i.e. lat and long) of he various communities would have been known from the surveying work work used to lay out the sections and townships - as set out by the Northwest Ordinance of 1785. The direction for a line between two points can be calculated from the coordinates of those two points (first saw this in the ARRL Antenna Book).
I would image that the surveyors used astronomical references (sun, stars) to determine true north (or east-west) rather than a magnetic compass. Similarly, latitude and longitude for a given point can be determined astronomical observation - the trickiest part is determining time for longitude, which could be done by observing the moons of Jupiter, the phase of earth's moon or in later years from the time signal sent over the telegraph.
- Erik
Hehe Those monuments to railroad engineering were built with great minds there can be no doubt. But they were built for men to wich "it can't be done" was never uttered.
Case in point you think Harriman would have let triple tracking be an issue when the UP started hauling coal from the PRB?? Heck no .Budget be d#$@ that rail would be laid and the engineers would've got the calculations correct and the line would be down with no problems.
Things got done because it was a cutthroat run to the west...And the buisness run hard. Nowadays a minor improvement needs a environmental study, two budget reviews, another outside engineering study, a community impact study and hiring of outside survey firms JUST to keep the line straight.And that don't happen unless the board decrees it necessary expenditure of funds.
Still I could see those brilliant guys of old using a few modern tools like laser measuring devices and maybe a helicopter ride to survey..lot faster than a horse!
At M.P. 54 on the Toledo Sub.
The world gravitates towards insainity.
erikem Quentin, The geographic locations (i.e. lat and long) of he various communities would have been known from the surveying work work used to lay out the sections and townships - as set out by the Northwest Ordinance of 1785. The direction for a line between two points can be calculated from the coordinates of those two points. I would image that the surveyors used astronomical references (sun, stars) to determine true north (or east-west) rather than a magnetic compass. Similarly, latitude and longitude for a given point can be determined astronomical observation - the trickiest part is determining time for longitude, which could be done by observing the moons of Jupiter, the phase of earth's moon or in later years from the time signal sent over the telegraph. - Erik
The geographic locations (i.e. lat and long) of he various communities would have been known from the surveying work work used to lay out the sections and townships - as set out by the Northwest Ordinance of 1785. The direction for a line between two points can be calculated from the coordinates of those two points.
Now that gets pretty "deep"....I never thought about the "location" known of town boundries, and other government measurements. But that too, 100 yr's. ago makes one wonder how so called "bench marks" were established, etc.....
I fully agree.....We can't sell the old timers of engineering short, by any means.
Tunnel construction before electric power for any lights and or electronic equipment and the lists goes on.....
Thanks, Erik
You're welcome.
A couple of comments: The USGS benchmarks were positioned by standard surveying methods, i.e. chaining and triangulation albeit with great attention to detail and measurements repeated many times to average out errors. The astronomical methods would be of most use for determining the location of a point with no nearby surveys as getting a single measurement may take several days at the minimum.
The Romans had quite a bit of experience in getting tunnel faces to meet - several of their aqueducts required tunnels.
HighIron_fan Hehe Those monuments to railroad engineering were built with great minds there can be no doubt. But they were built for men to wich "it can't be done" was never uttered. Case in point you think Harriman would have let triple tracking be an issue when the UP started hauling coal from the PRB?? Heck no .Budget be d#$@ that rail would be laid and the engineers would've got the calculations correct and the line would be down with no problems. Things got done because it was a cutthroat run to the west...And the buisness run hard. Nowadays a minor improvement needs a environmental study, two budget reviews, another outside engineering study, a community impact study and hiring of outside survey firms JUST to keep the line straight.And that don't happen unless the board decrees it necessary expenditure of funds. Still I could see those brilliant guys of old using a few modern tools like laser measuring devices and maybe a helicopter ride to survey..lot faster than a horse!
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Murphy Siding Somewhere around 1880, a predecessr of the Great Northern built a bridge the Big Sioux River, in Sioux Falls, S.D. It crossed over the top of part of the namesake falls, at a particularly wide spot. The west bank has a long area of built up ROW, to make a smooth transition up the hill of the river valley. In addition, the bridge and the built up ROW are laid out on a curve. Before computers, calculators, satelites, etc... how did they lay this out and build it to the proper proportions? [emphasis added - PDN]
For the non-navigator types, this is about where 3rd Street in Sioux Falls would cross the River (if the Street didn't end on each side as it does). It's at the southern tip of Falls Park, and it looks like there's a trail that passes under the northwestern abutment of the bridge. As you say, it's on a fill for a considerable distance to the northwest, even crossing over N. Phillips Ave. / East Falls Park Drive on a bridge with fill on both sides.
But what puzzles me is why the GN's predecessor chose such a "particularly wide spot" - on about a 45 degree angle yet, which makes it about 40% longer - for this crossing. That's counter to the usual rule of choosing as narrow a spot as feasible and crossing at close to a 90 degree angle, to minimize the lengths of the very costly bridges and the associated approach fills, as you have observed. Was there something else that compelled the railroad to choose this location, such as reaching a particularly important downtown traffic source, the "Queen Bee Mill" (whose ruins on the east side are labeled on some maps), or the Falls themselves as the chief power source then, 'back in the day' ?
- Paul North.
Paul The answer is probably in the history. The GN predecessor bridge is the one crossing the south edge of the falls. There is a bridge about 4 blocks south, that was Milwaukee Road. In fact, the Milwaukee Road line ran up the hill parallel to this line. If you look at a sattelite map, about 100 yards west of the Phillips/Falls Park Drive underpass, you can see an embankment that used to be the start of a bridge over the street. 2 blocks further south, was a bridge for a Rock Island predecessor. Another 4 blocks or so upriver, there is also a former CNW bridge. The GN line was built to run to the downtown yard area, from Watertown, north, and a little west. I imagine, that the Milwaukee and the Rock Island, and the CNW got there first, and the GN line took what was available and went with it.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
On a similar line of thinking: I think we've established that the folks who laid out and engineered the railroads were a fairly intelligent group. They used the tools of the time, and old fashined brainpower and ingenuity to design rail ines and bridges. What about the subcontractors who actually did the work? In my bridge example, did the company that did the dirtwork have guy as smart as the engineer, with his own slide rule to figure out how many man hours, and horse hours would be required to do the job, and then bid it accordingly? Something like that seems to be fraught will potential financial disaster.
A note concerning using astronomical observations to degtermine longitude. Until close to the end of the eighteenth century, accurately determining longitude was exrtremely difficult, if not impossible, since an accurate timepiece is necessary to determine longitude. With the development of the chronometer, it became possible to determine longitude by comparing the actual time of an astronomical phenomenom with the time indicaed by the chronometer (the English used the meridian that passes through London and the observatory at Greenwich as the prime meridian for their chronometerrs (and is still the prime meridian for people around the world).
Johnny
The chronometer was needed for determining longitude on a ship where you could not afford to take several days to determine time from the orbits of the moons of Jupiter or the phase of the earth's moon. The latter was used to determine the western boundary for the state of Pennsylvania and more recent surveys showed that the boundary longitude was 300 feet off.
By the late 1700's, the orbits of the Galilean moons were tabulated using the local time for Paris. Observations of the transit of various starts would give the local time at the location of interest, and observation of Jupiter would give the local time in Paris - the difference in times would then give the longitude from Paris.
Sometimes there is an easier solution. Maybe the track was tangent because the terrain allowed it and the town wasn't built until the railroad reached the area. Common out west.
erikem The chronometer was needed for determining longitude on a ship where you could not afford to take several days to determine time from the orbits of the moons of Jupiter or the phase of the earth's moon. The latter was used to determine the western boundary for the state of Pennsylvania and more recent surveys showed that the boundary longitude was 300 feet off. By the late 1700's, the orbits of the Galilean moons were tabulated using the local time for Paris. Observations of the transit of various starts would give the local time at the location of interest, and observation of Jupiter would give the local time in Paris - the difference in times would then give the longitude from Paris. - Erik
OK, I've been trying to understand this for several hours.
I was trying to figure out how the starts of various moon transits of Jupiter would give someone the local time. I understand how it would give the time in Paris.
Did you mean "Observations of transits of various stars"?
If so, it's just a typo and we all commonly make them so no criticisim intented.
If you did mean "Starts" would you please explain further? Thanks.
Ken,
Sorry for the confusion, hope the following clears it up.
Observing the moons of Jupiter, specifically when they were eclipsed by Jupiter, would give the local time in Paris based on the ephemeris tables. Observing when a given star reached its zenith would give the local time at the observing location (the sun could be used as well, but a point like star gives better time resolution than the disc of the sun). The difference between local time and Paris can then be used to determine longitude. This technique for determining longitude was first used in France and the French were chagrined to find that their country was some fifty miles narrower in longitude than what they had previously thought.
The advantage of using Jupiter as a master clock as compared to a chronometer is that it is not subject to drift due to temperature or gravity changes. I would also imagine that the early chronometers would not take kindly to the shocks from being hauled in a wagon over freshly cleared roads.
All this would not be necessary in area where the town sites were in areas surveyed for section lines.
P.S. The telegraph time signals used in the US from the 1870's to ???? were derived from observations of stars taken with a transit telescope - where the observations were used to correct the master clock. The system was good enough that the difference between observer reaction times could be measured to better than 100 milli-seconds.
Murphy Siding Paul The answer is probably in the history. The GN predecessor bridge is the one crossing the south edge of the falls. There is a bridge about 4 blocks south, that was Milwaukee Road. In fact, the Milwaukee Road line ran up the hill parallel to this line. If you look at a sattelite map, about 100 yards west of the Phillips/Falls Park Drive underpass, you can see an embankment that used to be the start of a bridge over the street. 2 blocks further south, was a bridge for a Rock Island predecessor. Another 4 blocks or so upriver, there is also a former CNW bridge. The GN line was built to run to the downtown yard area, from Watertown, north, and a little west. I imagine, that the Milwaukee and the Rock Island, and the CNW got there first, and the GN line took what was available and went with it.
If you go to the ACME Mapper 2.0 website, then this location, the click on the "Topo" view button at the upper right, an older USGS map should appear that shows most of the lines and bridges that you mentioned, for anyone else who is interested.
Murphy Siding [snipped - PDN] What about the subcontractors who actually did the work? In my bridge example, did the company that did the dirtwork have guy as smart as the engineer, with his own slide rule to figure out how many man hours, and horse hours would be required to do the job, and then bid it accordingly? Something like that seems to be fraught will potential financial disaster.
I'm back after a family trip and will add some thoughts generated from reading the recent postings.
The concept of balancing excavation and embankment was certainly prevalent until the mid 20th century but is no longer a significant factor because of the mobilized equipment available. The undulating profiles resulting from construction that sought to balance the earthmoving have proven to be a problem with the operation of long high speed freight trains. In addition to the drawbar stress the locomotive engineer has to deal with a train that has simultanous slack or streching, maybe two or more of each.
The Williams Arizona 1959-60 line change mentioned earlier has a 34 mile continuous 1% grade with a 10,000 foot long vetiical curve when it was necessary to change vertical direction. Hence no perceptable slack action.
How much elevation was gained in the 34 mi. of 1%.....? Is that 978' elevation change....Not sure I can work my slide rule anymore, maybe not even my calculator.
34mi = 179,520 feet.1% grade = 1 foot rise for 100 foot run.
so
X 1 __ ======= ____
179,520 100
100x = 179,520
x = 1795.2
1795.2 / 5280 = 0.34
in 34 miles of run at a sustained 1% grade, you'll rise (or descend) by 1,795.2 feet (a little over 1/3 of a mile)
-Dan
Builder of Bowser steam! Railimages Site
I suppose you can do all that. Or you can just convert it to feet and move the decimal point two digits to the left.
Dave, you make it too easy. I don't believe you even needed a slide rule to do that. By the way, I think I still have a circular slide rule; when I used a slide rule, the circular one seemed more of a novelty to me.
Also by the way, when will the passengerl station in Charlotte be moved back to Trade Street? I spent many a happy hour at the old station, watching the morning trains come in and go out; sometimes I even watched the southbound Piedmont Limited come in.
NCDOT received five responses to the Request for Expressions of Interest (RFEI) document they published in April. The purpose of the RFEI was to gauge interest in a public-private partnership related to the larger Charlotte Gateway Station project. Two days of Respondent Meetings were conducted in the CMGC, June 5, and June 18. An audience of City, County, and NCDOT Rail Division staff heard presentations from Hines, Forest City, Jacoby Development, Walsh, and Yun Capital. A formal Request for Qualifications was published by NCDOT Rail on August 13. Responses are due September 21. Presentations are currently scheduled for October 25 and 26.
Thanks, Dave. How long has it been since this was first proposed?
How long did it take to move the station to North Tryon?
I had a slide rule many many years ago, but it is long gone. I did have my E6B when I was in flight school. That is a sort of slide rule used for flight planning, Among many other functions, it can even compute wind corrections. By the time I got to instrument flight training, I even had a calculator that could do that. That calculator could even add, subtract, multiply, and divide time without the need to convert it to minutes or seconds. Even that was 30 years ago.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E6B
Phoebe Vet I suppose you can do all that. Or you can just convert it to feet and move the decimal point two digits to the left.
well, yeah ... but the maths there work for anything grade-wise... say 2% grade ... becomes x/179520 = 1/50 (more maths here).
The station on North Tryon St is an old Norfolk Souther facility that looks like a 1950 bus terminal. The old Southern Train station at Graham and Trade Sts is gone. The property is owned by Greyhound and is the site of their bus station. The Charlotte Gateway Station is part of the 2030 plan http://publications.ingagepublication.com/CHARLOTTELIGHTRAIL/
It was originally proposed in 1998 and was then known as the 2025 plan. In 2006 it was modified and updated including changing the completion date from 2025 to 2030.
So far, half of the light rail Blue Line is up and running, as is the Sprinter bus service to the airport. The next 9 miles of the Blue Line is in the property acquisition phase. The street car is sort of under construction but is turning into a fiasco. The Red Line Commuter rail is still being fought over, the combatants being CATS, the communities to be served who do not wish to share in the cost, Norfolk Southern who has serious concerns about sharing their ROW, and CSX who is unhappy with the details of the plan to eliminate their grade level crossing of the NS ROW that both Amtrak and the Red Line will share.
The Gateway Station has been held up by long difficult financial negotiations with Greyhound, who owns the property. The plan is to move Greyhound one block south and incorporate them into the Gateway Station along with the Trolley, The Red Line, Amtrak, and several CATS bus lines. They are also trying to develop the air rights with private businesses.
Norfolk Southern is in the process of building a new inter-modal facility at the airport, and CATS is purchasing the old site at the NS yard where Amtrak currently has their station. It will be an additional maint facility.
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