I'm not so sure that this would work. I don't see daily service. Maybe once a week service until there's a greater demand for this service.
Leave the northern terminal (Louisville, Cincy, Indy) on a Thursday afternoon / evening, overnight to Sanford, FL arriving sometime Friday afternoon if possible. Return trip north could be on Sunday afternoon / evening arriving at the northern terminal on a Monday afternoon.
Unless they are spending a majority of the winter down south, people tend to go on vacation for about a week at a time. Also, once a week service would allow for that 1 - 50 car train.
CC
klahm What would not be attractive would be a most-of-a-day drive to Louisville followed by a 2-day train ride to Sanford, then a drive to Tampa Bay. The departure point needs to be northward, especially for snowbirds from MN and WI.
What would not be attractive would be a most-of-a-day drive to Louisville followed by a 2-day train ride to Sanford, then a drive to Tampa Bay. The departure point needs to be northward, especially for snowbirds from MN and WI.
What is being assumed that only 1 - 50 car Auto train would be needed. In today's climate establishing a clientel may actually grow beyound anyone's expectations. Start where you can consolidate the traffic and if your riders fill the train then place another terminal wheresome originate from. Note that AMTRAK's autp train now sells out many days during peak travel and may eventually call for another terminal. that is when and if ANTRAK equipment becomes available. Your option could start by combining at Louisville once traffic is great enough?
klahm I think that a service of this nature could be successful from sometime in October through April-ish. We drove from Chicagoland to Tampa Bay in two days last fall and I really don't want to experience that stress again. I know some who drive it in a single haul, which is insane. Staying in motion through the night would help out a lot, even if the average speed is slower. If the fare can be competitive with the cost of auto fuel plus one night's hotel stay, it could be attractive. At higher prices, perhaps not so. What would not be attractive would be a most-of-a-day drive to Louisville followed by a 2-day train ride to Sanford, then a drive to Tampa Bay. The departure point needs to be northward, especially for snowbirds from MN and WI.
I think that a service of this nature could be successful from sometime in October through April-ish. We drove from Chicagoland to Tampa Bay in two days last fall and I really don't want to experience that stress again. I know some who drive it in a single haul, which is insane. Staying in motion through the night would help out a lot, even if the average speed is slower. If the fare can be competitive with the cost of auto fuel plus one night's hotel stay, it could be attractive. At higher prices, perhaps not so.
Having just worked in Chicago for four months I can't see how any trip would be stressful once you get out of the Chicago area.
jclass, I hear you about the work related travel. I work for the railroad and if we're working on the west coast and it's the middle of winter I'm driving my personal vehicle 1500-1700 miles one way because we aren't allowed to fly unless we pay for it ourselves. I love how they're called rest days when I'm driving 1600 miles to get home...
The Auto-train business model is based upon the Distribution Center type concept rather than the ultimate origin & destination of individual passengers.
The Northern terminal would be attracting traffic from all the large Mid-Western Cities - Chicago, Detroit, Cleveland, Cincinnati, Columbus and Indianapolis as well as Louisville and maybe St. Louis. The Southern terminal would be attracting traffic from the Mid and Southern Florida Peninsula. Both the Northern and Southern terminals need to be within a 'easy' day's drive from their customers ultimate origin and destination.
The customer base would be those travellers that routinely use 2 or 3 'full' travel days to make the trip from the Mid-West to Florida recreation and resort areas.
What I have described is the easy part - the hard part is putting $$$$ in the business plan, as well as getting operating capacity over whatever rail route is chosen to execute the business plan.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Pigfarmer1,
I understand what you're saying about passenger rail's place in the US, today. In addition, I think we are over-dependent on automobiles. When I think of how much I have spent out of my resources to be able to drive here and there at my convenience, I tend to shudder. We're taking the same path regarding cell phone communication, too.
I think there is technology existing that can play a significant role in everyday transportation that doesn't require as much infrastructure as autos do that can address many of the disadvantages of passenger rail and autos, but to date it isn't commercialized.
Right now, I'm planning a business trip where it will be too far to drive (18 hours - too much wear & tear on the driver ), and the timing and cost of available flights are not right. And I'm not going to bet that American won't cancel. Amtrak is the only reasonable option in timing and cost. Fortunately, I love trains.
Would I support the idea? I'd have no reason not to if tax dollars weren't being used. A more appropriate question is would I use the service? Absolutely not. I live 500 miles from Chicago and my one visit to Florida cured me of ever wanting to visit there again. If I were a snowbird I would go to Arizona like the the snowbirds in my part of the country do. And as others have already pointed out if I wanted to move my vehicle to Florida (Or anywhere else for that matter) while I flew I already have options available that would be faster and, no doubt, cheaper along with being more user friendly in that my car would be deivered where *I* wanted it as opposed to being delivered to
A much better question would be will the railroads support it? The answer to that question is simple. They would not support it. My railroad would get rid of Amtrak in a heartbeat if we were allowed to do so. Passenger trains jam up the works. They interfere with the flow of trains that actually generate revenue. They can also be a major headache for maintenance forces. Think about it.
If passenger service were such a great thing the public would take advantage of it and the railroads would be fighting each other to provide the service. The glory days of passenger service ended long ago and they're not coming back. We are a nation in love with the independence of automobiles and the convenience of air travel. Rail passenger is, for most Americans, lacking of independence and is rarely convenient. It's much easier to drive somewhere or fly and then pick up a rental car.
A secondary benefit of the existing Auto-Train - reduced highway casualty statistics on I-95 between Lorton and Sanford. The existing train gets stopped one or more times per week with 'medical emergencies'. I suspect were these individuals actually driving their car as opposed to riding on the Auto-Train they would be showing up on the highway accident statistics.
Thanks for inviting me to share my thoughts, Highspeed, even though I have absolutely no expertise on this issue.
It does seem to me it is well established that we Americans love our cars. Many of us are willing to go on long, punishing drives that do neither us nor the car any good in order to have our car at our destination. So it does seem to me that the idea of autotrain from the Chicago area to Florida could work. Granted, it would not be as fast as flying but people who drive for long distances are already willing to spend the time. And it would be a much more pleasant way to spend the time than driving.
Of course it is easy for me to have ideas when I don't have to put up any money to support them. I would expect anyone who does put up money would have to be pretty confident that the idea could be profitable.
Southern Terminal being at Sanford, you hop on I-4 and go West to the Tampa-Clearwater-St. Petersburg area, go East to Daytona Beach and I-95 access to all the East Coast beach communities, go West into Orlando and get on the Bee Line which provides access to the Southern East Coast beach communities.
The CSX line that Lake City is on, does not handle any passenger service at present and has more than enough freight traffic.
Northern terminal needs to be adjacent to a Interstate and a 'easy' day's drive from the areas major population centers - Louisville fits this bill. Moving the terminal further North would have some people driving North to go South, which, to them would seem counter-intuitive.
I miss the "one seat" ride from Chicago to Florida. Even at freight train speed, it would probably be faster than the circuitous route through Washinton DC with a long layover. Currently, the train to Washington has to run slowly through the scenic mountain areas. My last trip had to be cancelled due to the major snowsorm on the east coast, and I had to fly to Chicago. Going through Atlanta would have avoided all this.
Don't know if BNSF still offers this service:
http://www.prweb.com/releases/2004/01/prweb98481.htm
Have wondered about southern auto-train terminus being on CSX at Lake City, Fl.? Hop on I-75 South from there? Northern terminus farther north? Louisville is too far south.
The end terminals are all wrong IMHO. As others have posted mid westerners like the west coast of Florida. A southern terminal should be SANFORD or better still WINTER HAVEN / LAKELAND. North terminal needs to be Louisville or Cincinnatti or maybe Indianapolis?
To my High Speed Republican brother:
After living in Florida for the past 32 years, and working across the Florida peninsula, I find that most of
my Mid-Western visitors prefer the West Coast of Florida, while the East Coast visitors go down the coast
on the Atlantic Ocean side. South Florida is often known as the "6th Borough" of NYC. and during our
'season' most auto license tags from out-of-state are NY, NJ, PA, and MA. You see very few Illinois tags.
My marketing info. points out this fact also. It would be nice to consider a private Auto Train operation,
but passenger loads would be light. BWITRAVELLER
Sam1 Believe it or not there are some Texans who go to Florida for the winter. How anyone can leave our wonderful state for more than a week or so is beyond me.
Believe it or not there are some Texans who go to Florida for the winter. How anyone can leave our wonderful state for more than a week or so is beyond me.
Maybe they come from West Texas to find out what scenery looks like.
Amtrak should consider a CHICAGO to MIAMI route via ATLANTA for a regular passenger train similar to the trains that ran on L&N (CSX) and Southern Railway (NS) before AMTRAK DAY on May 1.1971.
I wasn't thinking a train, just a single auto carrier car handled like any other train car.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Phoebe Vet Just a thought. No research done. Perhaps a private RR could make a profit just shipping automobiles on a regular schedule. People could then move themselves via train or air and still have their car at the other end.
Just a thought. No research done. Perhaps a private RR could make a profit just shipping automobiles on a regular schedule. People could then move themselves via train or air and still have their car at the other end.
There are car carriers (trucks) that do this now. It would take a large volume of personal vehicles, I think, to make it profitable for a rail operation.
I would support it, but I doubt CSX & FEC would....Have you done any calculations to determine what they would make from the venture?
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
Your idea is fascinating. It is an easy and convenient alternative to a long driving trip.
Long driving trips are certainly doable. However, they are not fun. They are confining at best and mean you have to search for a motel at night. And there is always the risk of a breakdown on the road. Even a flat tire can be difficult when you're many miles from home.
Precisely because automobiles are so popular many people drive over certain long routes such as Chicago to Florida. If they need their car on both ends of the route they can't fly.
I cannot comment on the economics of the idea. However, an auto train between Chicago and Florida would certainly fill a real need and be a real service to the society.
Good Question. A better question might be, "Would the market for people travelling between Chicagoland and Miami support an Autotrain operation?"
Another question. Why would you name Miami as the Florida destination?" Many Midwesterners enjoy the West Coast of Florida, and by stopping only at Miami, such a journey could tack hours of additional driving onto the journey. Sanford, the Florida destination of Autotrain, isn't such a hot spot, scenery-wise, but strategically, it's location is superb: one can drive to east and west coast destinations with equal facility, plus it's practically next door to the made-for-tourista attractions of Orlando.
The driving time for my across-the-street neighbor (I live near Ft. Myers, FL) to her Kalamazoo, MI home is something like 22 hours, non-stop. A pair of tag-team drivers can beat a 33-hour train trip and be relaxing over beer at a cheesy Ft. Myers Beach bar while trainriders are still embarked. To me, this would imply a need to shorten travel time., so train speed does matter.
Given the above, do I think the service as you've defined it could "fly" (commercially speaking, pardon the pun)? I have my doubts...
Cheers
You are right. The agreement with SCL and RF&P was made in 1969. But reading over the Rail Passenger Act of 1971, raises questions.
"No railroad or any other person may, without the consent of theCorporation, conduct intercity rail passenger service over any routeover which the Corporation is performing scheduled intercity railpassenger service pursuant to a contract under this section."
So that sounds as though other operators could provide services on other routes without Amtrak's consent and in any case could operate additional services on Amtrak routes with consent.
http://bulk.resource.org/gao.gov/91-518/00005088.pdf
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
HIghSpeedRepublican I have done some informal study on passenger entrainments between Chicago and Miami, and the older routes that were more direct than CHI-WAS-MIA. It seems that CSX has decent trackage along the route CHI-Evansville-Nashville-Birmingham or Chattanooga-Atlanta-Jacksonville and FEC from JAX to MIA. Using the success of frequency versus one or two long daily trains, use a locomotive, coach, coach/lounge, sleeper and autorack (5 cars) four times a day each way, and start passenger service. No need to speed, just mix in with CSX/FEC traffic and go 50mph. Possibly a bilevel self propelled car with some trailers would work - and shorten the entire consist to a bi level RDC/coach, sleeper/lounge and autorack. The freight road needs to be your business partner, not enemy. The current time enroute is 57 hours versus what could be 33 hours on the new route, even at slower speeds - an entire day of travel saved. What do all of you think?
I have done some informal study on passenger entrainments between Chicago and Miami, and the older routes that were more direct than CHI-WAS-MIA. It seems that CSX has decent trackage along the route CHI-Evansville-Nashville-Birmingham or Chattanooga-Atlanta-Jacksonville and FEC from JAX to MIA. Using the success of frequency versus one or two long daily trains, use a locomotive, coach, coach/lounge, sleeper and autorack (5 cars) four times a day each way, and start passenger service. No need to speed, just mix in with CSX/FEC traffic and go 50mph. Possibly a bilevel self propelled car with some trailers would work - and shorten the entire consist to a bi level RDC/coach, sleeper/lounge and autorack. The freight road needs to be your business partner, not enemy. The current time enroute is 57 hours versus what could be 33 hours on the new route, even at slower speeds - an entire day of travel saved. What do all of you think?
It's probably a good market to be in. I think the biggest problems in your analysis are the train speed on the route and finding slots to run your trains.
In order to "fit in" with the freight traffic, you'd have to keep pace with the intermodal trains on the route. Looks like CSX has 48 hour cut-off to availability for Chicago to Jacksonville, so transit time is roughly 44 hours. Add in another 9-10 hours to get to Miami.
Pieces of the route are pretty crowded - it would be hard to find slots to run the trains and variability in performance would likely be pretty high.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
IIRC, Auto Train's agreement with SCL was written before Amtrak - They just did not start the service until later. Since SCL controlled L&N, Auto Train was able to expand into the Midwest market. '
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
The fact that Auto-Train started after Amtrak seems to show that Amtrak does not have a lock on passenger services and never has.
Someone may want to correct me, but I believe Amtrak's lock on intercity passenger rail service has been modified, i.e. up to two of the existing routes can be bid on by an alternative operator. No one has stepped up for good reason. They can make any money in the passenger rail business.
There are many retired people who spend summers up north and winters in Florida. Twice a year they need to move their selves and car(s) back and forth. My parents did this for over 25 years on the eastern AutoTrain. Perhaps in the early 70s, mid-westerners were still more used to car travel. Maybe it would be worth a try now. Louisville was a good collection point for S.Louis, Chicago, Detroit, Cleveland, and places in between.
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