Trains.com

"Get on your own resources." Locomotives and natural gas?

4514 views
12 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    July 2006
  • 459 posts
"Get on your own resources." Locomotives and natural gas?
Posted by jclass on Saturday, August 25, 2012 11:15 PM

Take a listen to T. Boone Pickens comments:

http://www.businessinsider.com/t-boone-pickens-tells-us-his-plan-to-rebuild-the-economy-2012-8

http://www.cleanenergyfuels.com/

Can locomotives run as efficiently on natural gas as they can on diesel oil?

Could the railroads by having their own facilities easily and quickly convert,

and have a public relations victory?

 

 

 

  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: NW Wisconsin
  • 3,857 posts
Posted by beaulieu on Saturday, August 25, 2012 11:37 PM

jclass

Can locomotives run as efficiently on natural gas as they can on diesel oil?

A pure diesel cannot run on Natural Gas, you either have to use a shot of regular diesel injected into a precumbustion chamber  which then ignites the Natural Gas, or You have to inject the Natural Gas under High-pressure immediately after TDC. In any case a gallon of Natural Gas has only a fraction of the Energy of a gallon of Diesel fuel. When BN experimented  with using Refridgerated Liquid Methane (a purer form of Natural Gas) in the mid-80's, they had to used a large tankcar between two locomotives to make the same distance as the locomotives could cover with their normal fuel tanks filled with diesel fuel. They did carry a bit more than normal reserve however as they only had one fueling station. The UP started testing a similar setup right after BN, but stopped before starting field testing when the price of diesel fuel dropped.

Could the railroads by having their own facilities easily and quickly convert,

and have a public relations victory?

Not very easily, they would need to establish a lot of infrastructure, and invest a lot of money.

 

 

 

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • 459 posts
Posted by jclass on Sunday, August 26, 2012 12:16 AM

beaulieu

jclass

Can locomotives run as efficiently on natural gas as they can on diesel oil?

A pure diesel cannot run on Natural Gas, you either have to use a shot of regular diesel injected into a precumbustion chamber  which then ignites the Natural Gas, or You have to inject the Natural Gas under High-pressure immediately after TDC. In any case a gallon of Natural Gas has only a fraction of the Energy of a gallon of Diesel fuel. When BN experimented  with using Refridgerated Liquid Methane (a purer form of Natural Gas) in the mid-80's, they had to used a large tankcar between two locomotives to make the same distance as the locomotives could cover with their normal fuel tanks filled with diesel fuel. They did carry a bit more than normal reserve however as they only had one fueling station. The UP started testing a similar setup right after BN, but stopped before starting field testing when the price of diesel fuel dropped.

Could the railroads by having their own facilities easily and quickly convert,

and have a public relations victory?

Not very easily, they would need to establish a lot of infrastructure, and invest a lot of money.

 

Then, are engines on semi-tractors refitted or re-engined, and then refilled more frequently to offset the lower energy per unit of fuel? 

 

 

  • Member since
    February 2005
  • From: Southwest US
  • 12,914 posts
Posted by tomikawaTT on Sunday, August 26, 2012 3:43 AM

The infrastructure to refuel LNG-burning trucks only has to supply a few hundred gallons per refill.

The locomotive fueling station has to be able to load ten thousand or more gallons per refill.

Comparing the two is like comparing a shot glass to a bucket.

The, "Buy American," line is a good way to keep the politicians and activists happy - but not necessarily the best from a business standpoint.

One thing about a serious accident involving spilled locomotive fuel.  Diesel may spill and make a mess, but it takes some serious urging to ignite it.  LNG will ignite quite readily - and then create a BLEVE when the main tank gets warm enough.  I live a few miles away from the scene of a LNG fire that created several small Boiling Liquid Explosive Vapor Explosions.  Fortunately, the Fire Department kept the bigger tanks and the railway cars from overheating - but we still had dawn at midnight and a ghastly mess to clean up later.  (No fatalities or serious injuries, thanks be.)

Chuck

  • Member since
    December 2004
  • 707 posts
Posted by tdmidget on Sunday, August 26, 2012 7:52 AM

This dead horse gets beaten about once a month here it seems.

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • 459 posts
Posted by jclass on Sunday, August 26, 2012 10:48 PM

Thanks, Beaulieu and Chuck.  Wasn't aware of the differences and their impacts.

  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: NW Wisconsin
  • 3,857 posts
Posted by beaulieu on Monday, August 27, 2012 8:22 AM

tdmidget

This dead horse gets beaten about once a month here it seems.

Not dead, there is still experimenting going on. CN is modifying two SD40-2s to run on reportedly LNG, and has bought one of the UP's LNG fuel tenders. The fact that they chose two elderly locomotives suggests a less than total commitment to the idea.

  • Member since
    February 2006
  • 344 posts
Posted by chicagorails on Monday, August 27, 2012 3:22 PM

burlington northern had a engine or two converted to nat gas years ago.  we need to get away from buying 500,000,000,000 to 1,000,000,000,000 dollars of oil from saudia arabia every year who supports terriorists. and all the jobs here if we used our own resources.   and last there is the security factor.

  • Member since
    December 2004
  • 707 posts
Posted by tdmidget on Monday, August 27, 2012 6:28 PM

beaulieu

tdmidget

This dead horse gets beaten about once a month here it seems.

Not dead, there is still experimenting going on. CN is modifying two SD40-2s to run on reportedly LNG, and has bought one of the UP's LNG fuel tenders. The fact that they chose two elderly locomotives suggests a less than total commitment to the idea.

And the fact that they bought the tender from UP tells us that the idea is already a failure and this is an exercise in "greenness" and probably comes with big ol' gov't $.

  • Member since
    April 2002
  • From: Nashville TN
  • 1,306 posts
Posted by Wdlgln005 on Monday, August 27, 2012 6:46 PM

Forget T Boone Pickens. Listen to the engineers at Caterpillar. Watch the engineers adapt a CAt engine to LNG & railroad use. Wait about 5 years to see what new product comes from Progress Rail/Cat. Those older locos are part of the installed fleet that can be rebuilt with new CAT Power.

Glenn Woodle
  • Member since
    March 2016
  • From: Burbank IL (near Clearing)
  • 13,540 posts
Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Tuesday, August 28, 2012 8:27 AM

Consider that T. Boone Pickens, who is better known as a corporate raider, has a rather large interest in natural gas holdings.  This whole thing looks like a way of establishing an energy policy that will further enlarge his already huge fortune.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
  • Member since
    November 2003
  • From: Rhode Island
  • 2,289 posts
Posted by carnej1 on Tuesday, August 28, 2012 10:10 AM

tdmidget

beaulieu

tdmidget

This dead horse gets beaten about once a month here it seems.

Not dead, there is still experimenting going on. CN is modifying two SD40-2s to run on reportedly LNG, and has bought one of the UP's LNG fuel tenders. The fact that they chose two elderly locomotives suggests a less than total commitment to the idea.

And the fact that they bought the tender from UP tells us that the idea is already a failure and this is an exercise in "greenness" and probably comes with big ol' gov't $.

Aren't they doing this on the Canadian side of their operations? I.E it won't be U.S taxpayers money..

"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock

  • Member since
    January 2003
  • From: Rock Springs Wy.
  • 1,967 posts
Posted by miniwyo on Tuesday, August 28, 2012 1:01 PM

Wdlgln005

Forget T Boone Pickens. Listen to the engineers at Caterpillar. Watch the engineers adapt a CAt engine to LNG & railroad use. Wait about 5 years to see what new product comes from Progress Rail/Cat. Those older locos are part of the installed fleet that can be rebuilt with new CAT Power.

CAT doesn't need to adapt anything. They have an entire line of Natural Gas fired engines that are the top of the line in horsepower and emissions used for generating electricity and natural gas compression. LNG or CNG doesn't matter as the end fuel is the same. CNG just pulls from a volume bottle like an air compressor and LNG pulls the vapors off the top of a liquid filled vessel like a propane grill does. I have operated many types of gas engines and would run a CAT any day over any other make. Diesel engines can be converted to natural gas by changing the heads to one with a spark plug port and changing the fuel system.

RJ

"Something hidden, Go and find it. Go and look behind the ranges, Something lost behind the ranges. Lost and waiting for you. Go." The Explorers - Rudyard Kipling

http://sweetwater-photography.com/

Join our Community!

Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.

Search the Community

Newsletter Sign-Up

By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy