Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
I think BOTH sides need to take a step back from the internet wrestling ring....
[quote user="Murphy Siding" Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner!! Please note: You intentionally left off part of my post to make it look out of context and to contrue the meaning. For clarity, I have put it back in. It's the part in red.[/quote]
Norris,
There was no conspiracy to take you out of context and change your meaning. I just edited for simplicity. Your whole text is just the second post above for anybody's quick reference. But I went back and edited my post with the quote from you, to add the proper punctuation and a helpful note about where people can get your full drift if they want. I have had a lot of PMs with folks on the forum, and we all pretty much agree on what the ingrained problem is here. We are all picking up the same vibe.
No, the reason Bucyrus left it out was b/c it was so inflammatory. You like stirring things up,so you put it in red. You seem to have a need to interfere with where this thread had already gone - largely resolved. Feeling left out b/c you missed last night? BTW, I'm not offended in the least by what you want to believe, however wrong you are in your assumptions. As they say, "Consider the source!"
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
schlimm Murphy: It's convenient for you to put words in someone else's mouth and then suggest you can't cite examples of the behavior questioned. But never mind. You see any criticism as negativity while others who aren't needing to be defensive might see it a raising questions and looking for answers, which most folks regard as progress. So be it. Many railroaders on this forum have a lot of informed observations to make about daily operations and most of us appreciate that. What positive contributions or question have you raised of late, BTW? However, that does not make them experts on other aspects of railroading anymore than the kitchen staff in a hospital are experts on housekeeping, to use your type of analogy. Bucyrus asked for examples of non-RRers dissing the pro's, but the on this thread and the (or the one on remote control, as far as I looked) I didn't see that occurring until after greyhounds' comment to the Navy guy, and then it got nasty. But everyone had calmed down last night. Clearing the air about this long-standing issue may be a good thing. Why not say something constructive for a change instead of attempting to stir the pot with your personal vendetta?
Murphy: It's convenient for you to put words in someone else's mouth and then suggest you can't cite examples of the behavior questioned. But never mind. You see any criticism as negativity while others who aren't needing to be defensive might see it a raising questions and looking for answers, which most folks regard as progress. So be it. Many railroaders on this forum have a lot of informed observations to make about daily operations and most of us appreciate that. What positive contributions or question have you raised of late, BTW? However, that does not make them experts on other aspects of railroading anymore than the kitchen staff in a hospital are experts on housekeeping, to use your type of analogy. Bucyrus asked for examples of non-RRers dissing the pro's, but the on this thread and the (or the one on remote control, as far as I looked) I didn't see that occurring until after greyhounds' comment to the Navy guy, and then it got nasty. But everyone had calmed down last night. Clearing the air about this long-standing issue may be a good thing. Why not say something constructive for a change instead of attempting to stir the pot with your personal vendetta?
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Bucyrus Murphy Siding: What you can't seem to accept, is the fact that some folks here, you and bucyrus come to mind, but that's certainly not the limit of it, seem to project the vibe that you think all railroaders are dummies. What's obvious, is that your anti-railroader sentiment shows very blatantly. An no, we can't give you specific examples, , because 1) It's so ingrained in everything you post that you can't see or admit you're doing it, and 2) You'd just want to argue about it forever. Maybe you are creating it yourself and assigning it to us unconsciously. That is sometimes what can cause you to pick up a "vibe," as you say. Otherwise, if it is so obvious to you, I don’t see why you can’t point out specific examples. If it exists as you say, it has to be in specific parts of specific posts. Please point it out to us, so we can see if it is real, or if it in your head. If I have said something that makes you think that I believe all railroaders are dummies, show me where I said it.
Murphy Siding: What you can't seem to accept, is the fact that some folks here, you and bucyrus come to mind, but that's certainly not the limit of it, seem to project the vibe that you think all railroaders are dummies. What's obvious, is that your anti-railroader sentiment shows very blatantly. An no, we can't give you specific examples, , because 1) It's so ingrained in everything you post that you can't see or admit you're doing it, and 2) You'd just want to argue about it forever.
What you can't seem to accept, is the fact that some folks here, you and bucyrus come to mind, but that's certainly not the limit of it, seem to project the vibe that you think all railroaders are dummies.
What's obvious, is that your anti-railroader sentiment shows very blatantly. An no, we can't give you specific examples, , because 1) It's so ingrained in everything you post that you can't see or admit you're doing it, and 2) You'd just want to argue about it forever.
Maybe you are creating it yourself and assigning it to us unconsciously.
That is sometimes what can cause you to pick up a "vibe," as you say.
Otherwise, if it is so obvious to you, I don’t see why you can’t point out specific examples. If it exists as you say, it has to be in specific parts of specific posts. Please point it out to us, so we can see if it is real, or if it in your head.
If I have said something that makes you think that I believe all railroaders are dummies, show me where I said it.
The bridge collapsed on this one already.....
You guys wanna take your "us versus them" argument to PMs? I'd really like to see this thread not get locked or continue to pile up as it appears to be heading for...like it's namesake. I started coming to this board a few years ago because I was told about the quality of posts and the number of 'rails' who were nice enough to answer what they could when they could. The quality has declined, dramatically, of what's left.
Heck, why not a new thread: "TRAINS Posters Derail Thread(s) on Forum"....(again)...
Dan
[quote user="Murphy Siding"]
What's obvious, is that your anti-railroader sentiment shows very blatantly. An no, we can't give you specific examples,... [note: for full context, see above post][/quote]
It is interesting that even the subject line of this thread is accusatory of U.P. ("UP derails coal train on bridge")... U.P. did not derail the train. (At least, one hopes that the company did not do so deliberately!) It was a U.P. train that derailed on U.P. property. Properly stated it would be: "U.P. coal train derailment collapses bridge".
I also found it interesting as I read the early development of the thread that no one even asked the question of whether someone might be under the mess.
How would anyone know if there were victims before it was dug out? If a witness came forward to that effect, what would happen then? Same thing that happened in the first place! Crews would come and start removing debris and cleaning up the mess. I doubt if the crew doing the clean up went about it without regard to saving forensics of what caused the derailment, even before they knew of the victims. Same as what the independent investigation would do.
If they knew there were victims, they might not have been as careful to save forensics as what what actually happened!
When the bodies were found, what then? Stop everything and wait for an independent crew to arrive? What about the possibility of others still under the debris? There is always the possibility that someone might have survived the mess and could be rescued, so should the work stop and wait?
Have they gotten to the bottom yet? Was there a pedestrian that was under the bridge?
What if the bodies found were not a beloved attorney and his wife but rather the top two persons on the international list of terrorists? Maybe only the other members of the terrorist organization would be upset... The rest of us would be cheering!
From the beginning of this, the somewhat unspoken question has been, "How could this happen?" and all the replies have been THEORIES of what might be the cause. Anyone that reads these THEORIES, whether put forth by bonefide RR personell or by the armchair railfan or an HO modeler, and thinks the THEORY is being put forth as the actual cause, needs to stop reading the internet altogether!
The old Quaker saying is: "Everyone is crazy but me and thee; and sometimes I wonder about thee."
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
schlimm ........................... your opinion is no more valuable, relevant, insightful, superior, etc. b/c you are a railroader than that of someone who is not. Nor is it necessarily any less valuable, etc. Opinions are just that, to be thrown out there for not just us but others beyond the 10-15 of us to read, evaluate and move on. If the professionals want their own forum on which you don't have to deal with the rest of us, petition Trains for a special group. And I hope you don't see this comment as rude, because it was not.
........................... your opinion is no more valuable, relevant, insightful, superior, etc. b/c you are a railroader than that of someone who is not. Nor is it necessarily any less valuable, etc. Opinions are just that, to be thrown out there for not just us but others beyond the 10-15 of us to read, evaluate and move on. If the professionals want their own forum on which you don't have to deal with the rest of us, petition Trains for a special group. And I hope you don't see this comment as rude, because it was not.
CShaveRR Paul_D_North_Jr: Perhaps all the moderators are on the beach this weekend, with no Internet access . . . I would hope this thread is not locked at least until after the UP public meeting tomorrow night - otherwise, we'll just have to start a new thread to pick up from there. A rational comment...where'd that come from?
Paul_D_North_Jr: Perhaps all the moderators are on the beach this weekend, with no Internet access . . . I would hope this thread is not locked at least until after the UP public meeting tomorrow night - otherwise, we'll just have to start a new thread to pick up from there.
Perhaps all the moderators are on the beach this weekend, with no Internet access . . .
I would hope this thread is not locked at least until after the UP public meeting tomorrow night - otherwise, we'll just have to start a new thread to pick up from there.
A rational comment...where'd that come from?
Maybe Paul is trying to be a Civil Engineer in more ways than one...
- Erik
Another thread assembled in the yard,, headed out on the main line,,,, then a bunch of switches got thrown and it landed in a pot of boiling spaghetti. Uggg!
Modeling the "Fargo Area Rapid Transit" in O scale 3 rail.
Paul_D_North_Jr Perhaps all the moderators are on the beach this weekend, with no Internet access . . . I would hope this thread is not locked at least until after the UP public meeting tomorrow night - otherwise, we'll just have to start a new thread to pick up from there.
This thread started out as a narrative about events at an unfortunate accident site.
From the time that the victims' son said they wanted an independent investigation into the cause, it's gone downhill. You can probably figure that I, one of the railroaders on the Forum have some thoughts about that whole process. But trust me, you can't know what they are for sure. I've seen former co-workers almost cheerfully say that UP was going to get what it deserved because they bumped off an attorney.
I've also seen arguments on here concerning the former naval air station in the same neighborhood, the revenues of the major class 1 railroads, containerization (for coal? really?), and politics (not partisan, necessarily, but who's connected to whom by what--money--certainly counts as politics).
May I remind a few people of some facts.
First, a loaded coal train derailed at or near the Shermer Road bridge, the site of two previous derailments, one in 1974 and one in 2009. The one in 2009 was a problem with the switch east of the bridge; this one began on or west of the bridge, having nothing to do with the switches. I don't know what caused the 1974 wreck, but it was a different railroad back then, with jointed rail and a thrill ride at any speed (I was there--often!).
Now, the bridge itself:
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Northbrook,+IL&hl=en&ll=42.103142,-87.829299&spn=0.006655,0.013937&sll=47.243304,-122.334627&sspn=0.025056,0.055747&t=h&hnear=Northbrook,+Cook,+Illinois&z=17&layer=c&cbll=42.103035,-87.829297&panoid=a_pplrvE_GWMwY8juiwbOw&cbp=12,348.34,,0,9.77
Follow the yellow line and take a ride under the bridge. When you get under it, look up...you see ties and skies through there. That is not the kind of bridge that UP wants there. There are girders underneath that will hold up a lot of weight, and a center pier providing further strength and support. But UP wanted to replace this bridge with a more modern design--a through-girder structure without center pier. One need only go further west along this very railroad line to see a good example of UP practice, built over Irving Park Road near York Road in Bensenville. There are two very large girders on the outside, and a ballasted deck, with ties in ballast instead of on steel. They apparently were not allowed to close the road for the amount of time they claimed it would take to replace the bridge.
Now, the heat: the first of several days in which the highs went over 100. Yes, such temperatures can cause sun kinks. And yes, the camera in the lead unit may see something that an engineer wouldn't necessarily recognize as a threat to his train. And yes, sun kinks can form under a train.Think back to CSX and its derailments involving Amtrak in recent years: sun kinks caused by maintenance practices, occurring where the track structure hadn't been properly prepared at the end of the maintained portion (well, it's all maintained, but you know what I mean). Now, consider the area near the bridge...well-maintained, well-ballasted trackage right next to unyielding trackage with no ballasted roadbed. In the 100-degree temperatures (probably a lot hotter in the sun), a kink would be likely here. The trackage on the bridge can't move, so what gives? The ballasted roadbed just off the bridge. It happened to occur west of the bridge. It could just as easily happened on the other side of the bridge, with the same results other than it would have taken out the switches at the Shermer control point again.
So please, don't even suggest a conspiracy or coverup here. It's in everyone's best interest to get the railroad up and moving again as soon as possible. Nobody was faulting the UP for that, or questioning their methods until the victims were found. Should they have stopped then? No--there could have been others. They cleaned out the coal, and got their railroad back in service. The fact that a car was down there really changed nothing as far as the derailment went--cause was the same. Of course, the fact that there were victims has immediately made this a more costly wreck for UP, and they realize this. But should it matter whether it's a well-connected, beloved lawyer and his wife, or a soccer mom and her kid, or a teenager and his date? No. The lawyers who will be suing the railroad for their negligence will have to find a maintenance practice that would cause such a wreck, or something that was discounted by the bridge inspectors who regularly check the bridge.I predict a lot of rancor at the meeting tomorrow. I would hope that our most vocal critics who think there's a coverup going on would be able to attend and make their views known. But I also hope that people will have the decency to allow the railroad to make their case, and have people who really know what they're talking about show what happened and why.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
Paul,
Since my browser seems to be having a few gremlins following links today...any idea if that public meeting will be "town hall" style? I'd presume it would be so...and I'd be curious if anyone representing the deceased parties will be there as well. It would be interesting to be a fly on some of those walls.
OK ??
Y6bs evergreen in my mind
In this thread, some have said that when railroaders offer some information, they are sometimes insulted, or dismissed out of hand, or told that they don’t know what they are talking about. This issue has been characterized as occurring rather often.
Yet, I do not see examples of this behavior. In the last few pages, there has indeed been disagreement over whether this insulting, disrespect, etc. happens, but examples of the insulting behavior that is the root of the issue seems hard to find.
I just read the automated trains thread looking for insults, and I see none. Certainly there is disagreement over whether automation will occur, but I do not see why any one position should be entitled to go unchallenged in such a discussion. It is all a matter of opinion.
I have read this thread again just to check for insults, curt dismissal, etc., and find nothing except for this one disagreement that started on page 7 where member BLS53 posted the following in the 4th post from the top:
“I don't know how it works in the railroad world, but any airline that hastily brought it's workers in to clean up a crash site, would have the NTSB all over them.
Never underestimate the power of the citizens of the communities involved. Most are filthy rich, with considerable political ties. They had a Naval Air Station closed, a couple of years after a jet crashed in one of their neighborhoods.
All said and done, UP might be looking at a permanent re-routing of their coal trains.”
I suggest people read from there to the bottom of the page in order to review the ensuing exchange. That is where this issue of railroaders being insulted, told that they don’t know what they are talking about, or being dismissed out of hand, first began.
I believe that if there is a grievance by one faction toward another faction here, the specifics should be stated. Otherwise it amounts to a blanket charge or broad brush complaint that cannot be confirmed or denied.
Look.
If it is all the same to you I much prefer the professionals stay on this board and not get driven off by those who seem to have a 'holier-than-thou', know-it-all attitudes...
Speculation is fine..in its place.
There has yet to be any final report on this and yet the knowing subjects are already pontificating on it...
Please back away from the computer and relax with some decaf....
No, not a special category, but some simple common respect would be nice...offer that, and it will be returned in spades.
Non railroaders ask a question about track work, and the mudchicken, who was the chief engineer mow for Santa Fe here, answers the question, with all, if not more information than requested, and the non-railroader immediately pops off with an insult or informs the guy he doesn't know what he's talking about because the answer doesn't jibe with what they wanted to hear, or how they imagined it would be, or my favorite, they read in Model Railroader that....
As Zugman points out, why bother anymore.
schlimm No, and you know I never said you did. If you don't, you need glasses!! [JK] What i have noted is that some of the pros act as though they are a special category who are entitled to special treatment.
No, and you know I never said you did. If you don't, you need glasses!! [JK] What i have noted is that some of the pros act as though they are a special category who are entitled to special treatment.
23 17 46 11
zugmann Bucyrus: Opinions get dismissed here right and left here. I think I have even had a couple of mine dismissed. But I don’t see that railroaders are having their opinions dismissed disproportionately. I really don’t understand the dispute. Where are railroader's opinions being dismissed just because they are railroaders? As I already stated - just read any thread about crewless trains.
Bucyrus: Opinions get dismissed here right and left here. I think I have even had a couple of mine dismissed. But I don’t see that railroaders are having their opinions dismissed disproportionately. I really don’t understand the dispute. Where are railroader's opinions being dismissed just because they are railroaders?
Opinions get dismissed here right and left here. I think I have even had a couple of mine dismissed. But I don’t see that railroaders are having their opinions dismissed disproportionately. I really don’t understand the dispute. Where are railroader's opinions being dismissed just because they are railroaders?
As I already stated - just read any thread about crewless trains.
Yes I have read all of those threads about automating trains. Some wonder when it will happen. Some don’t want it to happen. Some say it can’t happen. Interestingly, I have not seen any posts by railroad executives who do want it to happen. One has to wonder why it is happening here and there, and if that portends a universal transition. It is not a new idea. Automation was not far fetched even in 1900.
But in 1900, it would have required so many electromagnetic switches, batteries, levers, and buttons. I would speculate that PTC represents the biggest ever laying of the groundwork for automation. PTC is ultimately train-operating automation. It is just not recognized as such yet because only the beginning is apprarent.
schlimm What is your point? You think management is considering driverless trains for fun? You want to know why things happen? Follow the money.
What is your point? You think management is considering driverless trains for fun? You want to know why things happen? Follow the money.
No!!! really????!!!
Sheesh. Give me some credit Schlimm. And no, I'm not getting into this. I brought up the crewless thread as an example of what I was talking about with the RRer vs non-RRer thing.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
schlimm I mentioned cost b/c that is probably the main impetus for management to move toward crewless trains. Sure it has an impact on operations, which was what I meant by crew, along with job losses. Not necessarily yours, but you all are affected one way or another. Sink or swim together, etc. .
I mentioned cost b/c that is probably the main impetus for management to move toward crewless trains. Sure it has an impact on operations, which was what I meant by crew, along with job losses. Not necessarily yours, but you all are affected one way or another. Sink or swim together, etc.
.
I think my point has been made, gentlemen.
I mentioned cost b/c that is probably the main impetus for management to move toward crewless trains. Sure it has an impact on operations, which was what I meant by crew, along with job losses. Not necessarily yours, but you all are affected one way or another. Sink or swim together, etc. I am not management, BTW. But I have seen how they usually tend to find ways to feather their own nests at the expense of employees under the rubric of progress.
I didn't say it was unfair. Seems like many times when a RRer takes issue with something, many automatically, as our friend Mr, Schlimm did, immediately assumed the reason is strictly money.
It may be the reason.
It may not be the reason.
But because someone is a railroader - it is assumed that it is.
zugmann schlimm: zugmann: "As I already stated - just read any thread about crewless trains." Never read one but it seems to me your beef might be with rail management types, not the non-railroaders. Technology is a two-edged sword. Nice for management to save costs, but not so nice for employees. Right there. That was it. You did it yourself right there - immediately brought up the cost factor. You steered the conversation right to money, and not to something like operations, or hurdles. Went right for the money, because you think that is what we have the issue with. Hell, I'm not even in ground service anymore. So even if we had crewless trains, I'd probably still have a job where I'm at.
schlimm: zugmann: "As I already stated - just read any thread about crewless trains." Never read one but it seems to me your beef might be with rail management types, not the non-railroaders. Technology is a two-edged sword. Nice for management to save costs, but not so nice for employees.
zugmann: "As I already stated - just read any thread about crewless trains."
Never read one but it seems to me your beef might be with rail management types, not the non-railroaders. Technology is a two-edged sword. Nice for management to save costs, but not so nice for employees.
Right there. That was it.
You did it yourself right there - immediately brought up the cost factor. You steered the conversation right to money, and not to something like operations, or hurdles. Went right for the money, because you think that is what we have the issue with. Hell, I'm not even in ground service anymore. So even if we had crewless trains, I'd probably still have a job where I'm at.
Why is it unfair to bring up the cost factor? Isn't that the point of automation?
schlimm zugmann: "As I already stated - just read any thread about crewless trains." Never read one but it seems to me your beef might be with rail management types, not the non-railroaders. Technology is a two-edged sword. Nice for management to save costs, but not so nice for employees.
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