Trains.com

Signal question

3272 views
17 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    June 2008
  • From: Salem, Oregon
  • 189 posts
Signal question
Posted by NP Red on Tuesday, May 22, 2012 10:14 PM

This is a new signal that went in on the UP mian line in Salem, Oregon.  It's a few hundred feet north of the depot.  Does anybody know what the lower lamp indicates?  I have never seen it used. This is single track with no turnouts.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/crmthompson/7253281848/in/photostream

  • Member since
    August 2003
  • From: Anywhere there are trains
  • 578 posts
Posted by Train Guy 3 on Wednesday, May 23, 2012 12:05 AM

I know nothing about UP signals but I wanna take a shot to see if I come up with a answer. Could the lower signal head  change an idication from "Restricting" to "Stop". It's just a guess, the picture has me curious.

TG3 LOOK ! LISTEN ! LIVE ! Remember the 3.

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • From: North Dakota
  • 9,592 posts
Posted by BroadwayLion on Wednesday, May 23, 2012 7:16 AM

It is a block signal (indicates by a number plate). Since it is all single track and the train looking at the signal is not in a pocket, it probably cannot display an absolute stop. It could tell the crew to take the siding at the next siding, but I suspect that it has a different function, possibly indicates the aspect of the next signal.

ROAR

The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.

Here there be cats.                                LIONS with CAMERAS

  • Member since
    June 2008
  • From: Salem, Oregon
  • 189 posts
Posted by NP Red on Wednesday, May 23, 2012 8:36 AM

MORE iFORMATION

The upper head functions normally as trains pass all day long.  I have never seen the lower signal active. I thought it might have a future function in PTC but the head is not turned away from the tracks.  It must have a current function.  Of the hundreds of new signals installed in this year in this area, this is the only one I've seen like this.  The next siding is more than a mile ahead.  I  also thought it might indicate some thing to Amtrak stopped at the station, except there is not another one for southbound trains. It seems unique.

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Hotchkiss, Colorado
  • 294 posts
Posted by steve24944 on Wednesday, May 23, 2012 8:56 AM

Here in Colorado, along the Denver & Rio Grande ( now UP ) The lower lamp is a lunar white that will allow a train to pass a red stop signal at a slow restricted speed, ready to stop, when following a train going up grade.  So that a heavy freight wont have to stop and not be able to get going again on a steep grade.  My understanding is that if the lower lamp is not on, then the red stop signal becomes an absolute stop.  

Anybody, ..... Let me know if this is not correct.

 

Steve

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • From: North Dakota
  • 9,592 posts
Posted by BroadwayLion on Wednesday, May 23, 2012 2:26 PM

Well, a "Stop and Proceed" Signal. As a block signal (as marked by the number board) it cannot display a "Stop and Stay" order.

ROAR

The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.

Here there be cats.                                LIONS with CAMERAS

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: US
  • 25,089 posts
Posted by BaltACD on Wednesday, May 23, 2012 2:42 PM

steve24944

Here in Colorado, along the Denver & Rio Grande ( now UP ) The lower lamp is a lunar white that will allow a train to pass a red stop signal at a slow restricted speed, ready to stop, when following a train going up grade.  So that a heavy freight wont have to stop and not be able to get going again on a steep grade.  My understanding is that if the lower lamp is not on, then the red stop signal becomes an absolute stop.  

Anybody, ..... Let me know if this is not correct.

 

Steve

Signals without number plates are defined as being Absolute signals and are the only signals that can display STOP.  Signals with number plates are not Absolute signals and cannot display STOP, their most restrictive indication is generically known as Stop & Proceed - each carrier has their own definition of how this applies on their property and some carriers do not require the train to stop but only proceed at Restricted Speed

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

  • Member since
    March 2003
  • From: Central Iowa
  • 6,849 posts
Posted by jeffhergert on Wednesday, May 23, 2012 4:29 PM

NP Red

MORE iFORMATION

The upper head functions normally as trains pass all day long.  I have never seen the lower signal active. I thought it might have a future function in PTC but the head is not turned away from the tracks.  It must have a current function.  Of the hundreds of new signals installed in this year in this area, this is the only one I've seen like this.  The next siding is more than a mile ahead.  I  also thought it might indicate some thing to Amtrak stopped at the station, except there is not another one for southbound trains. It seems unique.

A second, lower head is usually going to be a signal in advance of a controlled switch (CTC or manual interlocking instead of one that is exclusively hand operated by people at the switch) to let the train know that it will be taking the diverging route at the next, or is some cases, the second upcoming signal and proceed accordingly.  When the switch is lined for the diverging route, that lower head will probably display either a green (green could also flash), yellow, or lunar.  The color used will depend on what the allowable speed is for taking the diverging route and if that route is signalled beyond the switch. 

It is possible that the lower head does indicate something for an Amtrak train stopped at the station.  Since that would be a local situation outside the scope of system rules, it would be noted in the special instructions of the employee time table for that area.  

I'd guess though it's more likely that the signal is an advance indication of what's going to happen at the next siding.   

Jeff

  • Member since
    June 2001
  • From: Lombard (west of Chicago), Illinois
  • 13,681 posts
Posted by CShaveRR on Wednesday, May 23, 2012 7:10 PM

Your mention of the siding one mile ahead is a pretty strong argument that Jeff's given you the correct answer.  I suspect that the lower light will be either yellow or green (there is only one light on that lower head, right?). 

Carl

Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)

CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)

  • Member since
    March 2002
  • 9,265 posts
Posted by edblysard on Wednesday, May 23, 2012 8:50 PM

From Union Pacific Railroad, System Special Instructions,

Effective Wednesday, April 7th, 2010...

Page 165, with number plate, rule 9.2.13,  aspect with the lower single signal flashing has indication of "proceed at restricted speed, not exceeding prescribed speed through turnout when applicable."

As Jeff pointed out, it most likely protects the siding by informing crews they will be taking a diverging route into the siding.

23 17 46 11

  • Member since
    May 2012
  • 6 posts
Posted by mopar_tx on Friday, May 25, 2012 8:52 PM

It could be for a yellow or lunar light (approach deverging/approach restricting) like the above post suggested informing crews that there are going into the siding.

  • Member since
    October 2010
  • From: Centennial, CO
  • 3,218 posts
Posted by Stourbridge Lion on Friday, May 25, 2012 10:33 PM

mopar_tx - Welcome to trains.com! Cowboy

  • Member since
    May 2012
  • 6 posts
Posted by mopar_tx on Sunday, May 27, 2012 8:27 PM

Thanks for the Welcome! I'm just kind of looking around a bit. MOE

Approach Diverging(yellow over yellow) going into the siding and

 Approach Ristricting(yellow over lunar) deverging to a turn out

  • Member since
    March 2003
  • From: Central Iowa
  • 6,849 posts
Posted by jeffhergert on Monday, May 28, 2012 7:18 PM

mopar_tx

Thanks for the Welcome! I'm just kind of looking around a bit. MOE

Approach Diverging(yellow over yellow) going into the siding and

 Approach Ristricting(yellow over lunar) deverging to a turn out

Approach Restricting is proceed prepared to pass next signal at restricted speed, but not exceeding 15 mph.  Usually the diverging route at the next signal would lead to unsignalled track.  

There is one place on my territory that we get an Approach Restricting but usually don't take the diverging route at the next signal, which is usually an Approach (yellow over red).  Since we hardly ever do take the diverging route (which leads to an old yard ladder and connection to another main) some become complacent.  One time we were on an adjacent track while another train was comming up along side us.  They called the App Restr over the radio but weren't expecting to take the (rail)road less travelled.  When they got to the next signal they were lined through the ladder.  The signal at the far end (it's a short section of track) is an absolute and must have had a Stop indication because as they were going by us, we heard their air go.  Evidently they had to big hole it (plug it, spike it, shoot it, or any other euphemism for throwing the train into emergency) to get stopped before that absolute signal.

Jeff

      

  • Member since
    June 2008
  • From: Salem, Oregon
  • 189 posts
Posted by NP Red on Tuesday, May 29, 2012 12:51 AM

Sorry folks.  I was thinking about this question I posted and it just dawned on me what the answer is.  Two city blocks before this signal is the last turnout at the north end of the Salem yard where it joins the mainline.  When they installed this new mast, they removed the old one and they also removed the signal located at that yard switch two city blocks before this.  The lower head must simply be for that switch.  One mast replaces two.  What confused me is the fact that it is located so far from the actual switch.  It can be seen from that switch.  Is this common to have a signal a long way from the actual switch?

  • Member since
    December 2009
  • 277 posts
Posted by Thomas 9011 on Tuesday, May 29, 2012 2:41 AM

That light is a lunar white light  which restricts train speed to no more than 20 MPH. They put it there because you can not have a lunar light with those 3 fixed signals. Some of the older signals had a color wheel which had all the colors including lunar.

I would have to say they put it there because there is a train station in a block where the signal is typically red (probably from the yard up the road switching cars on the main line). It would allow the train to proceed after stopping even if the signal was red. This would save time as the train could proceed and stop at the station while the other train could get out of the way instead of the train just sitting at the red signal waiting for the train to clear the block and then go to the station.

You don't see lunar signals too often. Most of the time if there is congestion you will get a flashing red. Draw bridges are a good place for lunar signals as you want the train to travel at a good clip but the engineer has no idea when the bridge will go up either. You will probably see that lunar signal every time that train comes to town or not at all. Lunar signals also typically have large lights. The lens are sometimes 3 times the size of a normal lens.

  • Member since
    May 2012
  • 6 posts
Posted by mopar_tx on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 1:52 PM

In the terrtory that I'm in we get the Approach Restricting signal in a few places, two of which is when we are leaving CTC and entering TWC and I think in one area of Houston from one Subdivision to another. We get the get the Approach Diverging everywhere in Houston.

  • Member since
    May 2012
  • 6 posts
Posted by mopar_tx on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 1:55 PM

The Approach Restricting signals we get do lead to a deverging route to either a siding or a turn out. MOE

Join our Community!

Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.

Search the Community

Newsletter Sign-Up

By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy