From the view inside the cab I watch people drive their cars around the gates everyday in front of my approaching train. Interestingly though many people who start to drive around the gates abruptly stop once I start blowing the horn. We don't have any crossings on my territory that are quiet zones and I'm thankful for it. I know the horn is loud and it gets on peoples nerves but it is loud for a reason. With the way cars are built and people inside of them blaring their music loud enough they can't hear an ambulance siren at least they can hear a K5 on a Dash 9-40CW coming at them!
On a side note almost all of our engines are equipped with front mounted cameras. I've heard since their installation almost 100% of people who have tried to take the railroad to court when their loved one was killed at a crossing accident have dropped their case upon seeing the video footage.
In my opinion if a town doesn't want a train to blow its horn at a crossing then build a bridge and close the crossing! Otherwise, like someone else said don't be an idiot and buy a house next to railroad tracks! The rail line had probably been there at least 75 years before someone built the house.
What else can you say?
Thx IGN
Semper Vaporo Yep... the same way the lady (texting on her cell phone) walked in the low wall around the fountain in the shopping mall and fell headlong into the water!
Yep... the same way the lady (texting on her cell phone) walked in the low wall around the fountain in the shopping mall and fell headlong into the water!
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
PigFarmer1 I have watched trespassers in Grand Island have near misses with the with the no trespassing signs because they were too busy walking along thinking about God only knows what. How do you about walk into a sign post???
I have watched trespassers in Grand Island have near misses with the with the no trespassing signs because they were too busy walking along thinking about God only knows what. How do you about walk into a sign post???
One step at a time!
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Correct. The city may have to install chain link type swing fences that will lock pedestrians etc off of the ROW. Failing that: Toot Toot!
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
Ed,
The article says the quiet zone was short lived. I guess that means the quiet was short lived, since the quiet zone itself remains intact while the horn blowing is just a legal exception within the quiet zone. The article also refers to horn blowing at Pine St. on an as-needed basis, suggesting that it might be needed sometimes and not at other times. But, as I understand it, the as-needed basis for Pine Street will be needed all the time because of inadequate visibility. And as you point out, horn blowing is always required on an as-needed basis within a quiet zone.
So I conclude that, until something is changed with the Pine St. crossing they have a quiet zone with horn blowing always performed at one crossing within the quiet zone.
Not real sure what you don't understand....the UP spokesman, Mark Davis, said the sight line for train crews is obstructed, they have had a near miss already, there are no stationary horns facing the street to warn automobile traffic or pedestrians, UP believes the crossing is un safe unless the engineer sounds the horn, therefore they are going to sound the train horn at that location.
That is precisely why the FRA includes that clause in the variance rule.
dakotafred BroadwayLion: There are several issues in creating a quiet zone. First the zone must be at least 3 miles long. They will not quiet one road just to blow off the horns on the next block. New highway engineering must be done at local expense. These could be four quadrant gates, or a raised barrier between the highway lanes. There are others. In Bismarck they wanted trains to stop blowing at the Fraine Barracks Crossing. Railroad said it was a public crossing and others said no it was not since it only served the Barracks (and the back gate at that) . They have been dancing around that issue for some time, and I do not remember how it worked out. Broadway, the NIMBYs got the state to find the Fraine Barracks crossing was indeed private, so the trains don't blow for it anymore unless a motorist is in sight. The present effort, by downtown interests, is directed (I believe) at three crossings only, between 3rd and 12th streets, which is well short of the 3-mile requirement you claim.
BroadwayLion: There are several issues in creating a quiet zone. First the zone must be at least 3 miles long. They will not quiet one road just to blow off the horns on the next block. New highway engineering must be done at local expense. These could be four quadrant gates, or a raised barrier between the highway lanes. There are others. In Bismarck they wanted trains to stop blowing at the Fraine Barracks Crossing. Railroad said it was a public crossing and others said no it was not since it only served the Barracks (and the back gate at that) . They have been dancing around that issue for some time, and I do not remember how it worked out.
There are several issues in creating a quiet zone. First the zone must be at least 3 miles long. They will not quiet one road just to blow off the horns on the next block.
New highway engineering must be done at local expense. These could be four quadrant gates, or a raised barrier between the highway lanes. There are others.
In Bismarck they wanted trains to stop blowing at the Fraine Barracks Crossing. Railroad said it was a public crossing and others said no it was not since it only served the Barracks (and the back gate at that) . They have been dancing around that issue for some time, and I do not remember how it worked out.
Broadway, the NIMBYs got the state to find the Fraine Barracks crossing was indeed private, so the trains don't blow for it anymore unless a motorist is in sight. The present effort, by downtown interests, is directed (I believe) at three crossings only, between 3rd and 12th streets, which is well short of the 3-mile requirement you claim.
23 17 46 11
The crossings can all be right next to each other, but the quiet zone has to be at least three miles long, or so I am told. If Fraine Barracks is quiet, then there are no horn crossing from Mandan eastward. So according to the way I understand it, the quiet zone will be quite long enough, especially with the barracks road quiet.
http://www.theindependent.com/news/local/city-union-pacific-work-out-deal-to-resume-quiet-zone/article_9986a400-ac6f-11e1-9b67-0019bb2963f4.html
You can make announcements in the local newspaper, you can put up barricades, you can employ flaggers and you will still see people try to go through the crossing. And the police are just as bad as the general public...It's amazing how clueless drivers can be.
BroadwayLion There are several issues in creating a quiet zone. First the zone must be at least 3 miles long. They will not quiet one road just to blow off the horns on the next block. New highway engineering must be done at local expense. These could be four quadrant gates, or a raised barrier between the highway lanes. There are others. In Bismarck they wanted trains to stop blowing at the Fraine Barracks Crossing. Railroad said it was a public crossing and others said no it was not since it only served the Barracks (and the back gate at that) . They have been dancing around that issue for some time, and I do not remember how it worked out.
edblysardAll the FRA variances issued also contain the requirement that, if the locomotive engineer feels there is a clear and ongoing danger to the train, pedestrians or automobile traffic, he must sound his horn in a standard crossing signal.
This is what I do not quite understand about the article linked to the first post. I understand the premise of requiring horn blowing in a quiet zone in the case of danger to the train, pedestrian, or drivers. The obvious example of that scenario is that a driver or pedestrian appears to intend to not yield to the train. However, the issue cited in the article is obstructed visibility of the engineer to approaching pedestrians or vehicles.
Does the lack of visibility constitute a requirement to sound the horn because an engineer cannot see an approaching pedestrian or driver, and therefore cannot verify that a possible approaching pedestrian or drivers appears to intend to yield to the train?
If that is the case, then a crossing with no visibility for the engineer would require blowing the horn every time at the crossing whether a pedestrian or driver were approaching or not.
That would be my interpretation of what is happening in the case cited by the article.
All the FRA variances issued also contain the requirement that, if the locomotive engineer feels there is a clear and ongoing danger to the train, pedestrians or automobile traffic, he must sound his horn in a standard crossing signal.
In other words, if he or she thinks a car or pedestrian is in the process of, or going to attempt to beat the train, he must sound the horn.
One of the prerequisites is that the local government assumed all liability at the crossings, unless the carrier violates a law, that burden is on the entity requesting the quite zone.
Of course, as pointed out, the carrier will be sued anyway, but....
BaltACD http://www.fra.dot.gov/downloads/safety/trainhorn_2005/hornrulerod042105.pdf
http://www.fra.dot.gov/downloads/safety/trainhorn_2005/hornrulerod042105.pdf
Tell us in six billion words or more.....
This is a good example of beauracacy bull (insert)! I don't know what is more horrendous, the insidious writing or the time it takes to read it or the time it takes to understand what it trying to be said. And there is a conclusion or two to be found in there, too! Its quadriple doublespeak at its best, a governement report at its worst as it ambles thorugh its preamble citing preambles from other just as verbose and obsurely written reports. Simply they could say, "Wwe interviewed people, read reports, and took all things given and said to us, underconsideration. We have concluded that this should be done and instruct the parties at hand to make the proper agreements and do the job." Think how much cheaper government and business could operate without all the fluff and invention to cloud situations, hedge bets, and inflate egos!
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If a crossing is made so drivers cannot go around the gates, why would there be any need to blow the horn?
Norm48327 Not being a lawyer I can't say who would assume liability. OTOH, I would think it would be written into the agreement between the city and the RR that the city be held liable. Durand, MI is a quiet zone with only standard gates and lights. Nothing to stop motorists from going around them. Nevertheless you can safely assume the RR will get sued, and maybe the city too.
Not being a lawyer I can't say who would assume liability.
OTOH, I would think it would be written into the agreement between the city and the RR that the city be held liable. Durand, MI is a quiet zone with only standard gates and lights. Nothing to stop motorists from going around them.
Nevertheless you can safely assume the RR will get sued, and maybe the city too.
The city of Carlsbad wanted to establish a quiet zone on the Surf Line (don't recall if this was before or after NCTD bought the ROW from AT&SF). Negotiations broke down when the city refused to accept liability and IIRC there was no talk of upgrading the crossings to four quadrant plus median protection.
I've also remember hearing that one or more cities in the Santa Barbara area imposed quiet zones on the SP Coast line ca 1980 and forced the SP to continue to accept liability - but I am not sure if the facts were reported correctly on that statement.
- Erik
In Bismarck they wanted trains to stop blowing at the Fraine Barracks Crossing. Railroad said it was a public crossing and others said no it was not since it only served the Barracks (and the back gate at that) . They have been dancing around that issue for some time, and I do not remember how it worked out. The Barracks are down by the river where the railroad is, but the NIMBYS are up on a ridge about 80 feet above the railroad, with no roads that would take them down to the tracks in any event.
There are plenty of websites that can be found that deal with quiet zones. We do not have a quiet zone here in Richardton. Three streets cross the tracks: HWY 8, B Street, and a dirt road which shall remain nameless. The dirt road "could" go away, it is almost NEVER used by anyone, and it does not go anywhere, but it must be there in case the other two crossings which are close together should be blocked by a train, at least this one would be clear.
Since there is a big ethanol plant in town, the horns must be used when switching the plant. Besides this is the old NP main line, and only sees about 20 trains a day. ☺
To Henry6: Thanks for the reponse! Now it would seem to me that the 'roads can say "OK, you don't want us to blow the whistle? If the Feds say it's OK, we won't, but don't come cryin' when people get squashed!"
It is Federal law. But a local government can make arrangements with the FRA for a sort of varience.
All these posts are interesting. I always assumed that whistle blowing for a grade crossing was a Federal, not local requirement, and the 'roads that didn't blow were in violation of US law. Am I wrong on this? It would seem to me that the 'roads getting grief from the locals about whistle noise could tell said locals "Hey, don't talk to us, talk to Uncle Sam!"
Norm
When the article says U.P. is blowing the horn at Pine St. “as needed,” does that mean they are blowing it every time they cross because they cannot see pedestrians approaching due to the proximity of buildings; and because they cannot see if pedestrians are there or not, horn blowing is needed to warn any pedestrians that might be approaching?
In other words, does “as needed” mean needed every time they cross Pine St.?
I have a question about liablity. When a railroad in effect relenquishes the protecting of the grade crossing by not having the engineers blow for the crossings, does the requesting community assume the liablity? Or is the railroad still being hung?
If I were the railroad and if something happened at a silent grade crossing...silent at the requirement of the local population...then I would make sure that, written into the agreement, that the railroad would be held harmless and not to be sued, if a mishap occured at the crossing due to the inability of the railroad to protect itself, its property, and its employees by not being able to blow a train whistle, relying soley instead on what the community asked for in the form of protection.
Sorry about the double post.
I lived in Durand, MI for a time. It is a grandfathered quiet zone. The locals are well aware of this, but what of those from out of town? Two crossings are on the mainline and due to angle and a curve are somewhat blind. Train speed is 40 MPH.
TTBOMK there has not been a crossing accident there.
I lived in Durand, MI for a time. It is a grandfathered quiet zone with two mainline crossings and two leading to the yard. There are signs at all crossings saying "NO TRAIN HORN".
The locals are well aware of this but I question what out of towner's know of this. Two of the mainline crossings are somewhat blind due to the angle of one and a curve on the other. Train speed limit on the mains is 40 MPH.
TTBOMK there have been no crossing accidents there.
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