Deadly Sleep Disorders

[Anonymous]

I should mention that this thread is based on my interpretation of this NTSB synopsis in which last year’s Iowa collision on the BNSF was found to be due to a medical disorder in both members of the crew.   

 

http://www.ntsb.gov/news/events/2012/red_oak_ia/index.html

[henry6]

blownout cylinder

 

What is this 'visionary' thing of which you speak?  I knew you'd ask.

Let me put it this way..I have had relatives who went through certain...erm..'visionary' regimes that thought that they could control fr all manner of things as well...  Can't follow what you're saying, but they're your relatives.

Just prove to me that your system will prove to be a well thought out plan. Didn't think anybody can prove anything to you, especially this.

That has not happened yet....You both won't let it and are cocksure it won't happen anyway.

[edblysard]

Not quite correct, what the NTSB stated was ....

•1.     Based on their medical histories, both crewmembers on the striking coal train were at high risk for sleep disorders and fatigue.

• 2. Based on the conductor's and the engineer's irregular work schedules, their medical histories, and their lack of action before the collision, both crewmembers on the striking coal train had fallen asleep due to fatigue.
• 3. Had the two crewmembers on the striking coal train completed the BNSF's fatigue training program, they would have had the opportunity to learn that they were at risk for sleep disorders, particularly obstructive sleep apnea, and the computer-based training program would have displayed a message advising them to consult with a physician.

It does not specifically state they had been diagnosed with a sleep disorder by a doctor, nor does it conclude they were in fact  suffering a disorder, only that they were at "high risk".

It does make a definitive statement to the effect they were asleep.

Bucyrus

I should mention that this thread is based on my interpretation of this NTSB synopsis in which last year’s Iowa collision on the BNSF was found to be due to a medical disorder in both members of the crew.   

 

http://www.ntsb.gov/news/events/2012/red_oak_ia/index.html

[blownout cylinder]

3. Had the two crewmembers on the striking coal train completed the BNSF's fatigue training program, they would have had the opportunity to learn that they were at risk for sleep disorders, particularly obstructive sleep apnea, and the computer-based training program would have displayed a message advising them to consult with a physician.

And herein lies the crux of the whole thing.

Obviously someone circumvented the training program and stuck these two on to this very thing.

My company has this very style of training program..for precisely these types of reasons. These employees would never have been allowed to drive any vehicle for this very reason...First..training...then if there computer based answers come back as at risk then they would have been taken out of the scenario until such time that the issues..if any..were dealt with.

There would not be a need for an all encompassing system because we would not be jumping to conclusions ....

[Anonymous]

edblysard

Not quite correct, what the NTSB stated was ....

•1.     Based on their medical histories, both crewmembers on the striking coal train were at high risk for sleep disorders and fatigue.

• 2. Based on the conductor's and the engineer's irregular work schedules, their medical histories, and their lack of action before the collision, both crewmembers on the striking coal train had fallen asleep due to fatigue.
• 3. Had the two crewmembers on the striking coal train completed the BNSF's fatigue training program, they would have had the opportunity to learn that they were at risk for sleep disorders, particularly obstructive sleep apnea, and the computer-based training program would have displayed a message advising them to consult with a physician.

It does not specifically state they had been diagnosed with a sleep disorder by a doctor, nor does it conclude they were in fact  suffering a disorder, only that they were at "high risk".

It does make a definitive statement to the effect they were asleep.

Bucyrus:

I should mention that this thread is based on my interpretation of this NTSB synopsis in which last year’s Iowa collision on the BNSF was found to be due to a medical disorder in both members of the crew.   

 

http://www.ntsb.gov/news/events/2012/red_oak_ia/index.html

 

 

 

 

 

Ed,

 

I understand your point about the report only saying that they were at risk for sleep disorders.   But the report also says this: 

 

“Based on the conductor's and the engineer's irregular work schedules, their medical histories, and their lack of action before the collision, both crewmembers on the striking coal train had fallen asleep due to fatigue.”

 

That is what I base my conclusion on that the NTSB asserts that both crewmembers had fallen asleep. 

 

[Anonymous]

Ed,

It is true that the crew had not been diagonosed with a medial disorder involving sleep.  Nevertheless, the NTSB finds a medical disorder without any medical diagnosis.  At leaset that is how I read it. 

[BroadwayLion]

IT'S CALLED A "TRIPPER"

If the signal is red, the tripper is up, otherwise it is down. If you pass a red signal your train is tripped, and stops. In the old days, you had to go down to the roadbed to reset it. Now they can be reset automatically after the trains stops. You are *supposed* to report being tripped, something akin to writing yourself up, but now a days, the black box will tell on you anyway, and you could be on the street for not reporting it. Besides, there are many reasons to be tripped besides a tripper.

The tripper is painted yellow. The trip valve on your train is painted white. White marks on the tripper, or yellow marks on your trip valve spell trouble, but you could also be tripped by trash or dead animals.

In any event, this is not new technology, it is well over 100 years old in fact, and it has stopped lots of trains preventing accidents and deaths.Even if you are asleep, if your train is tripped, you will wake up again.

In the modern idiom it is called "Positive Train Control" and can be accomplished using GPS together with your signal system to shut down a train that passes St. Signal.

 

ROAR

 

[zugmann]

 

trippers wouldn't have mattered in this crash.  From what I understand, they were running on a restricting signal.

[zugmann]

Bucyrus

 

 

 

Oh that’s okay.  We have to have somebody inside of the box in order for there to be a box that we visionaries can be outside of.   

 

Oh, brother!

 

Excuse me while I vomit.

[Murphy Siding]

zugmann

Bucyrus:

 

 

 

Oh that’s okay.  We have to have somebody inside of the box in order for there to be a box that we visionaries can be outside of.   

 

 

Oh, brother!

 

Excuse me while I vomit.

     Please don't vomit inside the box.

[henry6]

Trippers are ok at signals...but what about unsignaled territory?  Trees, grade crossings, other obstructions, violation of speed limits and unplanned or otherwise dangerous situations demand, having a person awake and mentally alert to respond without having to take a long time to ascertain the situtation, decide what action to take, and decide to take action. 

[Anonymous]

So far, we have learned the shift work sleep disorders are caused by working nights on a continuing or prolonged basis; or by working a series of shifts with each shift in the series being in a different portion of the clock.  This is a serious problem than can cause a person to lose attention, which can result in a workplace accident.   

 

This is a medical problem that can be diagnosed and treated to some extent.

 

So far we in this thread have come up with two ways to fix this problem (one of which is outside the box):

 

1)      The Pool

 

2)      The Magic Bullet

 

 

There is also a third way.  That is the preferred official regulatory institutional solution to the problem.  It is the medical-scientific-federal behemoth of examination and treatment   that is explained here:

 

http://cryptome.org/fra100104.txt

 

And here:

 

http://www.dcmsonline.org/jax-medicine/2001journals/april2001/shiftwork.htm

[Murphy Siding]

Bucyrus

.................. That is the preferred official regulatory institutional solution to the problem.  It is the medical-scientific-federal behemoth of examination and treatment   that is explained here:

 

http://cryptome.org/fra100104.txt

 

And here:

 

http://www.dcmsonline.org/jax-medicine/2001journals/april2001/shiftwork.htm

     I can't help but notice that your radio only gets one channel.

[henry6]

Bucyrus

So far, we have learned the shift work sleep disorders are caused by working nights on a continuing or prolonged basis; or by working a series of shifts with each shift in the series being in a different portion of the clock.  This is a serious problem than can cause a person to lose attention, which can result in a workplace accident.   

 

This is a medical problem that can be diagnosed and treated to some extent.

 

So far we in this thread have come up with two ways to fix this problem (one of which is outside the box):

 

1)      The Pool

 

2)      The Magic Bullet

 

 

There is also a third way.  That is the preferred official regulatory institutional solution to the problem.  It is the medical-scientific-federal behemoth of examination and treatment   that is explained here:

 

http://cryptome.org/fra100104.txt

 

And here:

 

http://www.dcmsonline.org/jax-medicine/2001journals/april2001/shiftwork.htm

In otherwords: teach the employee to self diagnose sleep problems and do "something" about it.  This is like saying, "take two asprin but don't call me in the morning".  The responsiblity falls on the employee to decide he shouldn't work today while his wife, family, and the bill collectors are saying he's got to work!   Absurd at best, ineffective at worst.  Makes no sense because it does not sovle the problem just shoves it off on the guy trying to feed his family and pay his bills...in effective and not fair.

 

[Anonymous]

Henry,

 

I do not understand why you conclude that the remedy will be for the employee to self-diagnose and treat himself.  That is far from how I interpret it.  Here is how the FRA will fix the problem:

Recommended Actions

 

    Therefore, FRA recommends that railroads and representatives of

employees, working together, take the following actions to promote the

fitness of employees in safety-sensitive positions:

    (1) Establish training and educational programs to inform employees

of the potential for performance impairment as a result of fatigue,

sleep loss, sleep deprivation, inadequate sleep quality, and working at

odd hours, and document when employees have received the training.

Incorporate elements that encourage self-assessment, peer-to-peer

communication, and co-worker identification accompanied by policies

consistent with these recommendations.

    (2) Ensure that employees' medical examinations include assessment

and screening for possible sleep disorders and other associated medical

conditions (including use of appropriate checklists and records).

Develop standardized screening tools, or a good practices guide, for

the diagnosis, referral and treatment of sleep disorders (especially

sleep apnea) and other related medical conditions to be used by company

paid or recommended physicians during routine medical examinations; and

provide an appropriate list of certified sleep disorder centers and

related specialists for referral when necessary.

    (3) Develop and implement rules that request employees in safety-

sensitive positions to voluntarily report any sleep disorder that could

incapacitate, or seriously impair, their performance.

    (4) Develop and implement policies such that, when a railroad

becomes aware that an employee in a safety-sensitive position has an

incapacitating or performance-impairing medical condition related to

sleep, the railroad prohibits that employee from performing any safety-

sensitive duties until that medical condition appropriately responds to

treatment.

    (5) Implement policies, procedures, and any necessary agreements

to--

    (a) Promote self-reporting of sleep-related medical conditions by

protecting the medical confidentiality of that information and

protecting the employment relationship, provided that the employee

complies with the recommended course of treatment;

    (b) Encourage employees with diagnosed sleep disorders to

participate in recommended evaluation and treatment; and

    (c) Establish dispute resolution mechanisms that rapidly resolve

any issues regarding the current fitness of employees who have reported

sleep-related medical conditions and have cooperated in evaluation and

prescribed treatment.

    FRA acknowledges that some of the above recommendations may have

already been institutionalized in one form or another by various

segments of the industry; in this case, FRA suggests a review of

current policies and procedures for relevancy.

    FRA believes that the recommendations set forth above, if

implemented by industry parties, could advance the successful

management of sleep disorders. Taken together with the results of FRA's

broader study of potentially impairing medical conditions, lessons

learned could provide a sound foundation for more formal action by

industry, government, or both.

 

 

 

[henry6]

See what I've outlined in red below...a lot falls on the shoulders of the employee 
and all is suggestion and not required actions.  In effect, this is a classic case of 
the inmates running the asylem!

Bucyrus

Henry,

 

I do not understand why you conclude that the remedy will be for the employee to self-diagnose and treat himself.  That is far from how I interpret it.  Here is how the FRA will fix the problem:

Recommended Actions

 

    Therefore, FRA recommends that railroads and representatives of

employees, working together, take the following actions to promote the

fitness of employees in safety-sensitive positions:

    (1) Establish training and educational programs to inform employees

of the potential for performance impairment as a result of fatigue,

sleep loss, sleep deprivation, inadequate sleep quality, and working at

odd hours, and document when employees have received the training.

Incorporate elements that encourage self-assessment, peer-to-peer

communication, and co-worker identification accompanied by policies

consistent with these recommendations.

    (2) Ensure that employees' medical examinations include assessment

and screening for possible sleep disorders and other associated medical

conditions (including use of appropriate checklists and records).

Develop standardized screening tools, or a good practices guide, for

the diagnosis, referral and treatment of sleep disorders (especially

sleep apnea) and other related medical conditions to be used by company

paid or recommended physicians during routine medical examinations; and

provide an appropriate list of certified sleep disorder centers and

related specialists for referral when necessary.

    (3) Develop and implement rules that request employees in safety-

sensitive positions to voluntarily report any sleep disorder that could

incapacitate, or seriously impair, their performance.

    (4) Develop and implement policies such that, when a railroad

becomes aware that an employee in a safety-sensitive position has an

incapacitating or performance-impairing medical condition related to

sleep, the railroad prohibits that employee from performing any safety-

sensitive duties until that medical condition appropriately responds to

treatment.

    (5) Implement policies, procedures, and any necessary agreements

to--

    (a) Promote self-reporting of sleep-related medical conditions by

protecting the medical confidentiality of that information and

protecting the employment relationship, provided that the employee

complies with the recommended course of treatment;

    (b) Encourage employees with diagnosed sleep disorders to

participate in recommended evaluation and treatment; and

    (c) Establish dispute resolution mechanisms that rapidly resolve

any issues regarding the current fitness of employees who have reported

sleep-related medical conditions and have cooperated in evaluation and

prescribed treatment.

    FRA acknowledges that some of the above recommendations may have

already been institutionalized in one form or another by various

segments of the industry; in this case, FRA suggests a review of

current policies and procedures for relevancy.

    FRA believes that the recommendations set forth above, if

implemented by industry parties, could advance the successful

management of sleep disorders. Taken together with the results of FRA's

broader study of potentially impairing medical conditions, lessons

learned could provide a sound foundation for more formal action by

industry, government, or both.

 

 

 

.

[Anonymous]

Yes there are some elements of self reporting, but overall, it seems to me that the intent is to find out which employees are afflicted by sleep disorders, and either cure the disorder by treatment or take the employee out of service.  That is the only objective that can possibly match the seriousness of the problem that has been found. 

 

But I do sense some equivocation in language that seems to go back and forth between volunteering and requiring.  I think the explanation is that this is maybe eight years old, and, at that time, there was not a clearly developed screening tool.  So they encouraged employees to come forward on their own volition in order to fill in the blanks on what the screening misses. 

 

I assume that by today, they have made advances in the development of the screening tool, and continue to make advances.  Ultimately, this will be just like drug testing, except vastly more complex.  That is why I think the ultimate solution will be the technological monitor of wakefulness, which zugmann has dubbed the “Magic Bullet.”     

[henry6]

There's no "Magic Bullet"; and there ain't gonna be one.  Judging from what I've read, and the comments here, it is going to be a 2x4 slammed into the forehead in the form of redoing the way things are done. There are going to be requirements and tests and oversight to see that the requirements are met both on and off the job.  Show up without having slept or not having met the rest requirements means you don't work...I don't mean there'll be a monkey at each corner of your life, but you will have to toe the line to stay employed.  Do it right and you will work the days and hours you want to work and will be paid a proper wage and have a peace of mind that you will be safe because all others will be as safe as you; you know you will work as scheduled and not have to stay near a phone with your gear packed in the corner ready to go on a moment's notice.   Shock to the employers, too...they have to provide the best working conditions and safety standards and pay for the quality and safe workmanship in a safe working environment; and they will have to pay for it, too.  But they will always have a fully rested and quality crew available for any and all assignments to do the work efficiently and safely with reduction mishaps that close lines and demolishes equipment and infrastructure; they won't have to compensate for loss and damage, and will have more satisfied customers who also won't have to deal with losses.

[blownout cylinder]

Which is done here..where I work.

Our training programs go into exactly what 'sleep deprivation' means..both for the employer and for the employee. There are specific hours set for shifts. We do not do the swing shift scenario here for example. There is a computer graded questionairre which is then gone through with the trainee and the trainer..the idea being that IF s/he is found to be at-risk that s/he is told to get the situation dealt with before they begin work with the company. 

Oh...and by the way...no one in HR is allowed to put trainees into any job until they have completed ALL training steps. 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

As far as some of the out of the box scenarios go...one thing that caught my eye recently was a trailer for a movie called...PROMETHEUS...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwW650UiqFU

David8 is basically an android..if you will...

 

[blownout cylinder]

Murphy Siding

 

Bucyrus:

 

.................. That is the preferred official regulatory institutional solution to the problem.  It is the medical-scientific-federal behemoth of examination and treatment   that is explained here:

 

http://cryptome.org/fra100104.txt

 

And here:

 

http://www.dcmsonline.org/jax-medicine/2001journals/april2001/shiftwork.htm

 

     I can't help but notice that your radio only gets one channel.

 

Quite so....

[Anonymous]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_47KVJV8DU

 

 

[Anonymous]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUupnvWbcFw

 

 

 

[blownout cylinder]

[samfp1943]

Bucyrus

I should mention that this thread is based on my interpretation of this NTSB synopsis in which last year’s Iowa collision on the BNSF was found to be due to a medical disorder in both members of the crew.   

 

http://www.ntsb.gov/news/events/2012/red_oak_ia/index.html

GET READY FOR IT!

 

One of the major contributing factors besides FATIGUE, is a condition  called   OBESITY!

Look for the Food Police to get into this as as they are into school lunches.    Next they'll want to put exercise machines into locomotive cabs....The faster the engineer peddles, and the Conductor suns on his Stair Stepper, the faster the train will run.....

[Anonymous]

This is really what lack of sleep can result in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sH_gnmXmrtA

 

[BaltACD]

Murray

This is really what lack of sleep can result in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sH_gnmXmrtA

 

When 'toons were really 'toons!

[Anonymous]

One of the organizations dealing with this sleep disorder issue for railroaders is the North American Rail Alertness Partnership.

 

http://narap.org/

 

Here is a part of the site that goes into detail about sleep disorders:

 

http://narap.org/educational/sleep.php

 

In looking at the NTSB report on the Iowa crash, they do recommend to the FRA what they want to see done about the sleep disorder problem.  It is not really outside of the box at all, just plain common sense.  You just find out who has sleep disorders and who does not. 

[jwhitten]

 

 

Folks, this thread is sinking into the depths. Nothing wrong with the topic per se, but the level of civil discourse has declined to a point where it would be best to lock this thread. If you want to try again, feel free. Just do it in a new thread please.

 

John