I see some are coming around to realize that something other than the same old has to be done. Regulation is not going to solve it...permanent time assignments is not going to solve it...something radical has to be done.
Yes, again, yes. Airline pilots, truck and bus drivers, taxi drivers, warehouse crews, there are probably thousands of 24/7 jobs in which sleep schedules, lack of sleep, sleep depravation, uneven sleep, and eventually fatigue all play a roll in both work performance and private lives. I remember the hard time I had having to workone day starting at 5AM, then one day at 6AM but also do four hours after five hours off, then two days at 3PM and a fifth day variable but usually around noon. After a year I didn't know what day or time it was nor did I really care.
Bravado sounds great...and actually works when you are younger...overtime a breeze, night owl is cool, sixth and sevnth days ok. As long as you can cope with your social live, it's easy. But at a certrain age...usually sometime in the mid 30's...you begin to change; can't do it all the time, soon, just look for the simple 8 hours and go home. So, age produces metabolic and behavorial changes which are not taken into account by a seniority list and crew caller nor in the "we've always done it" mantra.
Changing a crew's assignment can be tricky...sometimes a crew will get a change in assignement but have to get some kind of extra pay under present rules, costly for the railroad. With PoolCrew that would hopefully be avoided. Moving a crew a distance for reassignment may or may not be a problem either, depending on proximity to other assignments. My first thought would be that set time assignments like yard jobs, road switch jobs, even passenger trains. But then, again, why not? It may allow for more flexibiity of assignements for crewing. Especially in commuter services where there are split shifts with four and five hour layovers; maybe fewer crews will be needed. Perhaps PoolCrew will have to provide transportation to and from crew assignment locations so that if a crew finishes an assigned train in a short time, PoolCrew will move the crew to another location for another short time assignement.
As I've indicated...this is a project aimed at dealing with efficient use of manpower but more importantly, utilizing manpower to reduce long term stress leading to fatigue. It is totally off the wall. It is totally different than what can be achieved within the confines of today's exclusive employment, of union contracts, of company divisions, and 200 year old practices and thinking. And everyone has to be aboard: labor, unions, railroads. New rules, new pay scales, new attitudes, have to be employed. Will it work everywhere? Probably not. Will it work for every current employee? Probably not. Will it work for every employer? Probably not. Will it work at all? Only if you say it won't and walk away. Yeah, there are a lot of variables, lots of scenerios, probablities, possibilities, impossiblities; lots of planning and designing and forethought needed. There could be....I'll actually go so far as to say, shold be....several different locations where it should be tried for a year or so, with monitoring of physical results as well as fiscal results. Employees who work well, with no lack of sleep or rest, without fatigue problems, should be able to work more efficiently and safely, giving employees a better performance of quality work, i.e. more money to the bottom line. Railroads, unions, other employees, and all sorts of government types can keep talking and argueing; that won't solve anything. Somebody, somewhere along this track, is going to have to say, "enough talking, lets try this or that or whatever else has been proposed".
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henry6 Changing a crew's assignment can be tricky...sometimes a crew will get a change in assignement but have to get some kind of extra pay under present rules, costly for the railroad. With PoolCrew that would hopefully be avoided. Moving a crew a distance for reassignment may or may not be a problem either, depending on proximity to other assignments.
Changing a crew's assignment can be tricky...sometimes a crew will get a change in assignement but have to get some kind of extra pay under present rules, costly for the railroad. With PoolCrew that would hopefully be avoided. Moving a crew a distance for reassignment may or may not be a problem either, depending on proximity to other assignments.
Henry, what railroad do you work for again? And under what contract?
When we get our assignment changed we don't get anything extra. In fact, most arbitrary and penalty payments are long gone. Those hired after 1985 only got the few penalty payments left, never the arbitraries like making air hoses or hanging on to car(s) while making a pickup etc. Even when a penalty payment is claimed, most take years to get paid.
Having set start times sounds like a good idea. Unfortunately, the business does not always move in a uniform way. Many of our manifest trains get called out of their originating station at about the same time everyday. From that point on, the departure times and over the road times can vary greatly. It just depends on how things are going. The first crew would know when they are going to go to work, but crews down the line aren't going to be as lucky.
Today, I was called to put together light power and go out and pull a grain train from an elevator. On duty at 0430, we were ready to depart about 630. We were blocked by a train on the yard lead who had to wait for a train on the main line to pass. When we went on duty, the elevator hadn't yet released the train. It was released by the time we were ready to leave. The elevator only has so long to load it before the railroad starts charging for the cars sitting there. Shouldn't the elevator expect the railroad to move their train in an expeditious manner since they must load it within the alloted time? (Actually it's got to be frustrating at times since I've seen grain trains sit for a day or two before getting pulled. But that was back when traffic was booming, not like it is now.) Or should the railroad tell the elevator, "I'm sorry, but because of crew scheduling the next available pick up time is between 7AM and 9AM the third Tuesday of next month. Thank you for your patronage."
The railroads and unions have proposed schemes over the years. One was/is call windows where you only go to work during a set period of time. Under some plans when your "window" closes you go to the bottom of the board and await the next day's window. Others where you automatically deadhead out to the away terminal if you didn't get a train. There have been plans for rest days. We had them once and seemed to work well. You worked about every 10 hours, but at the end had 3 days off. There have been other plans proposed or tried. The biggest hang up is money. Employees don't want to lose it thru reduced wages, the carriers don't want to lose it thru increased gaurantee payments. (Since many of these plans will require more people being available during all windows, the carriers want to reduce gaurantees on those who have them. That's why we lost our rest days. They paid too much in gaurantee at some smaller terminals. One terminal, if you only worked yard jobs during your work periods, you wouldn't go over the gaurantee and the company would have to make up the difference.) The current Federal Requirement for rest after working so many days (some changes in the way it's handled are coming, but I'm not sure when) is looked at by management and labor in somewhat the same way. Both sides think the other has learned to game the system to their advantage. That's probably going to be the biggest obstacle for any plan, each side is going to think the other is getting the better deal.
Again, all I see from your proposal is replacing direct employees with contract employees. You may think your people working for PoolCrew will never have issues that regular human beings have. Even regular night shift workers at times have trouble getting rest during the day. (I know, I've been one at times.) Unless you have access to automatons, you will still have some of the same problems.
I can't speak for the other railroaders on here, but in my opinion you have suceeded in alienating, if not offending the working rails on here. In that respect, I don't think you are alone. More and more I understand why others have left.
Jeff
It does not matter what anyone comes up with...it will not work....
By the sweat of your brows shall you work..all we are going to see are further issues...like it or not.
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
You are right, blownout, nothing proposed will work.
You are right, Jeff, I don't work for a railroad so have no business thinking anything or saying anything. I apologize for stepping on your omnipotent toes.
Since the two of you understand the problem so well, from your collective standpoints, the safest path is to close down all railroads, airlines and trucking companies and forget moving anything again. What a world seen through those colored glasses.!
Creating strawmen arguments is not going to cut it either...I sure as He double L hockey sticks am not suggesting that kind of thing.
The point is...I KNEW what kind of a career choice I was making when I went into doing the PSW thing then went from there upwards....I'm pretty sure rails did the same thing...eh?
blownout cylinder Creating strawmen arguments is not going to cut it either...I sure as He double L hockey sticks am not suggesting that kind of thing. The point is...I KNEW what kind of a career choice I was making when I went into doing the PSW thing then went from there upwards....I'm pretty sure rails did the same thing...eh?
Good for you!
I don't know Henry.....There's a chance it might be your attitude.............. When someone tells you why it won't work, instead of asking the particulars about why, you just come off as dismissive. I don't think the answers you're getting are made just to annoy you. I think the answers you're getting are from people who work in the industry and have a pretty good view of the situation. I'm not a railroader, but even I can see some big holes in your idea. I considered posting them, but felt the answer I would receive would be along the lines of "You're thinking too small. You're not thinking outside the box. You just can't see the big picture. Etc....." That usually comes off as meaning "You're just plain too dumb to understand what I'm saying." For some reason, folks don't appreciate being talked to like that.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Well, you aren't going to offend me. I have broad shoulders - I can take it.
The problem is when you use the "C" word: contractors. For the most part, contractors are used for crew haulers. These agencies are all about the bottom line. And it shows. There are some good van drivers out there - don't get me wrong, but then there's some that are, well, ehh.... less than ideal? But when you are paying very low wages and expect the guys to work a schedule worse than a railroader's, you get what you get.
That is a big hurdle to clear. Then there's the whole seniority thing. Like I said - what's more important? Regular work times, or regular work assignments? There's a lot of people that work in yards or locals solely so they can be home every night and not have to put up with hotels. And there's people that work road jobs so they do not have to put up with switching or being outside their entire shift.
Regular start times/rest times are but one factor to railroad life.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Railroaders here seem to be esconced in thier own little world of how it always has been and that's the way they want it. They are suspect of anyone with an idea, especially one who is not one of them. If it were one of them, they'd just as soon send him down a track in the dark then slam a car down on him. Oh, I know enough railroaders from the ground up to the big office to know 90% aren't the naysayers who have responded here. But if railroaders like these want to keep ducking drug tests, sneaking six pack aboard, dozing at any speed, and denying something has to be done to change that, then they will pay in the long run. They gave me negative answers...I took them and figured out the problem and came up with an answer to meet that challange. Too bad they, like you, thought it was my bad attitude. I was trying to build something through diologue not condemnation. So, You better all get going because the caller will be ringing your bell soon. Have a safe trip.
Nope- have a regular show up time! I don't even have my phone on me right now!
I tend to side with henry. If you are a visionary with new ideas, you can hardly listen to your critics. They will always be there.
henry6 Railroaders here seem to be esconced in thier own little world of how it always has been and that's the way they want it. They are suspect of anyone with an idea, especially one who is not one of them. If it were one of them, they'd just as soon send him down a track in the dark then slam a car down on him. Oh, I know enough railroaders from the ground up to the big office to know 90% aren't the naysayers who have responded here. But if railroaders like these want to keep ducking drug tests, sneaking six pack aboard, dozing at any speed, and denying something has to be done to change that, then they will pay in the long run. They gave me negative answers...I took them and figured out the problem and came up with an answer to meet that challange. Too bad they, like you, thought it was my bad attitude. I was trying to build something through diologue not condemnation. So, You better all get going because the caller will be ringing your bell soon. Have a safe trip.
Bucyrus I tend to side with henry. If you are a visionary with new ideas, you can hardly listen to your critics. They will always be there.
I always thought the point was to prove your critics wrong?
And then there's this: just because an idea is different, does not mean it is better.
henry6 But if railroaders like these want to keep ducking drug tests, sneaking six pack aboard, dozing at any speed
But if railroaders like these want to keep ducking drug tests, sneaking six pack aboard, dozing at any speed
zardoz henry6: But if railroaders like these want to keep ducking drug tests, sneaking six pack aboard, dozing at any speed
henry6: But if railroaders like these want to keep ducking drug tests, sneaking six pack aboard, dozing at any speed
My ducks are drug free.
I won't answer about my sheep disorders, though...
zugmann The problem is when you use the "C" word: contractors. For the most part, contractors are used for crew haulers. These agencies are all about the bottom line. And it shows. There are some good van drivers out there - don't get me wrong, but then there's some that are, well, ehh.... less than ideal? But when you are paying very low wages and expect the guys to work a schedule worse than a railroader's, you get what you get.
Like an extra board employee, I waited by the phone for the call to duty. Once I went on duty, my "hours of service" time began; from that on-duty time I then had 15 hours during which I was subject to another call once I completed the called-for assignment. The rub was that even after 14 hrs 59 min on duty, I could be called for yet another trip, which could take whatever amount of time was necessary, as long as the call came within my tour of duty.
So if I got a 0700 call to drive a crew somewhere, and then delivered them to their destination, I might have to go home to await another call, or I could be used immediately for another run. When I got done with the next run, I could be used yet again for a third run, on and on until my time expired. In this particular scenario, I could get called for yet another run up to 2159 that evening; and if called at 2159, I might have to drive a crew however long it took. My total time on duty and supposedly safe to drive could be up to or even exceed 24 hours--talk about safety first!!
I'm certainly not defending some of those contract drivers, as some of them are real losers and shouldn't be driving a golf ball, much less a van full of people. However, there is a chance your driver might be at the end of one of those horrendous shifts.
I lasted all of one week at that job before I quit.
zugmannMy ducks are drug free.
My ducks are drug free..as for my sheep....leave my sheep out of this!!!
I do not think that any particular 'magic bullet' system would really work. Our bodies are complex systems that have adapted to weird hours and all manner of other things not conducive to a 'normal'...there is that dang word again...sleep pattern.
There were some who actually argued that we go back to a time when we maintained a specific set pattern more attuned to a 'rural'/agricultural society...sleep at night/work during the day. That idea was pretty much beaten down simply because we grew accustomed to something close to a more mixed industrial/post industrial lifestyle...
In my field, that includes things like children getting sick...at night...emergency trips to the hospital and such. Imagine what would happen if someone gets into an accident and no doctors/nurses/EMT were around...was not a long time ago that that was the norm.
I had a cardiac arrest at night...I would not be here then....
Funny thing Henry,
I didn't personally attack you, not once.
I didn't really attack your idea either, simply offered a critique which included a specific question in regards to the benefit, in the form of profit to both the railroad and the union members/employees.
You still have failed to answer
Because some of us here didn't exclaime "Oh, how brilliant of you" you have taken offense.
You then insulted me, my profession and the professional railroaders here with you crudeness, petulance and arrogance.
The sad truth is that because most didn't agree with you 100%, nor did anyone reward you for you imagined expertise; you resulted to very childish behavior.
You proposed a concept, offered it for examination, and I assumed for discussion and debate, and got a lot of responses, wow...free R&D from people in the business you are trying your concept out on, you realize people actually pay for that?
Several of us found what we think are flaws in your concept and pointed those out.
Granted, some of us could have been a little more delicate in response, but delicate is for parlor games...this is railroading, nothing delicate about it.
Several of us agreed with your concept, and then just offered a few ideas of their own to help you tweak it, some disagreed with it, and said so, and at least one of us somewhat encouraged you to pursue it but suggested you somehow make it monetarily attractive to the railroad before it would be accepted.
What you showed me was that you are intolerant of criticism, hide bound in your belief that you are 100% correct in your concept and it is perfect as is, either un-able or un-willing to accept the idea you may not have the perfect solution, and completely un willing to listen to any idea or belief that runs contrary to your own.
All things you accuse the railroaders here of being and doing.
Instead of debating the pros and cons others offered, and defending point by point your concept in an adult manner, you quickly retreated into self-pity, anger and insults to "defend" your idea.
While most of us have been quite patience with your antics, insults and whining, and most of us have tolerated being called drug addicts, drunks, lazy and closed minded, you have finally managed to explain, to me at least, exactly what kind of person you are, your outlook on life and your attitude towards railroads.
Sorry you didn't make the cut when you applied.
I am as thick skinned as the next guy, like Zug, I have been chewed out by professionals...
I come here for fun, to hear others stories, answer questions and ask them, not to be insulted, nor read your insults towards others.
That said, you can take your thumb sucking pity party and stuff it.
No worries though, as most of us are going to go have adult conversations, while you could, maybe should, go back to the mirror in your room and amuse yourself as you normally would before you embarrass yourself in public any more than you already have.
Any chance that your or your idea would be seriously considered evaporated the moment you started to whine and pitch a fit.
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Murphy Siding Bucyrus: I tend to side with henry. If you are a visionary with new ideas, you can hardly listen to your critics. They will always be there. I disgree with that blanket statement. If you read the replies that got henry worked up, they are saying specifically what the weak spots are in his idea. Instead of addressing those weak spots, he's just dismissing the posters as being bad employees. Visionary ? ? ? A *visionary* would see that the mere fact that he said something doesn't instantly make the statement true.
Bucyrus: I tend to side with henry. If you are a visionary with new ideas, you can hardly listen to your critics. They will always be there.
But I didn't get upset with their criticism but tried to answer their concerns, the weak spots of mine and work out the problems they presented. It is they, infact, who got bent out of shape when I tried to incoporate their wisdom. I haven't dismissed them as bad employees but was trying to show how their complacent attitude will not solve the problems, will not change a thing. I have been around railroads and railroaders for over 50 years and I know the differences from those I knew 50 years ago and those who I've encountred today. I know what I've observed, what I've been told, what stories I've heard. I indicated that most of those who I have known from track gang through presidents have been good railroaders with and without their problems; I do not paint a majority of them as being druggies, drunks, or otherwise problematical. But there are some who hide their problems or hide from them. Fatigue is a problem no one can hide from. Adjusting failed rules over and over and over has not eliminated the problem.
I don't consider myself a visionary by any means. But I see there is a problem that is not being fixed by conventional means, by historical bandaids, by talking and talking, by saying nothing can be done. So I thought of something, presented it looking for ways to improve it, adjust it, maybe work toward making it work. I was taken aback by the total negativism by those calling themselves professional railroaders and surprised how quickly they snapped at my tail. I was hoping for a more enlightened and intelligent conversation...but I guess these forums are not where such will be.
edblysard Funny thing Henry, I didn't personally attack you, not once. I didn't really attack your idea either, simply offered a critique which included a specific question in regards to the benefit, in the form of profit to both the railroad and the union members/employees. You still have failed to answer Because some of us here didn't exclaime "Oh, how brilliant of you" you have taken offense. You then insulted me, my profession and the professional railroaders here with you crudeness, petulance and arrogance. The sad truth is that because most didn't agree with you 100%, nor did anyone reward you for you imagined expertise; you resulted to very childish behavior. You proposed a concept, offered it for examination, and I assumed for discussion and debate, and got a lot of responses, wow...free R&D from people in the business you are trying your concept out on, you realize people actually pay for that? Several of us found what we think are flaws in your concept and pointed those out. Granted, some of us could have been a little more delicate in response, but delicate is for parlor games...this is railroading, nothing delicate about it. Several of us agreed with your concept, and then just offered a few ideas of their own to help you tweak it, some disagreed with it, and said so, and at least one of us somewhat encouraged you to pursue it but suggested you somehow make it monetarily attractive to the railroad before it would be accepted. What you showed me was that you are intolerant of criticism, hide bound in your belief that you are 100% correct in your concept and it is perfect as is, either un-able or un-willing to accept the idea you may not have the perfect solution, and completely un willing to listen to any idea or belief that runs contrary to your own. All things you accuse the railroaders here of being and doing. Instead of debating the pros and cons others offered, and defending point by point your concept in an adult manner, you quickly retreated into self-pity, anger and insults to "defend" your idea. While most of us have been quite patience with your antics, insults and whining, and most of us have tolerated being called drug addicts, drunks, lazy and closed minded, you have finally managed to explain, to me at least, exactly what kind of person you are, your outlook on life and your attitude towards railroads. Sorry you didn't make the cut when you applied. I am as thick skinned as the next guy, like Zug, I have been chewed out by professionals... I come here for fun, to hear others stories, answer questions and ask them, not to be insulted, nor read your insults towards others. That said, you can take your thumb sucking pity party and stuff it. No worries though, as most of us are going to go have adult conversations, while you could, maybe should, go back to the mirror in your room and amuse yourself as you normally would before you embarrass yourself in public any more than you already have. Any chance that your or your idea would be seriously considered evaporated the moment you started to whine and pitch a fit.
I did answer you and the Georgia Peach there. Niether of you would accpet my answers or changes. The two of you especially dismissed my idea out of hand as not being workable. I don't really care because it isn't real anyway. I'm not going to do it. And I can see you and Georgie wouldn't even think it worth thinking about.
I'm sorry but this is getting really annoying.
You dismiss, out of hand, legitimate concerns that could be addressed and then wonder why you get the response you get?
Really?
There are loads of sectors that work 24/7 that have some of these very issues. Not everyone is suited for that type of work...they will figure that out eventually themselves....
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
blownout cylinder There were some who actually argued that we go back to a time when we maintained a specific set pattern more attuned to a 'rural'/agricultural society...sleep at night/work during the day. That idea was pretty much beaten down simply because we grew accustomed to something close to a more mixed industrial/post industrial lifestyle...
I read a study or two a little while back about people with "shifted circadian rhythms". Someone's rhythm can be off by 6-8 hours from the "norm". Explains why some people are night owls, and some are morning people.
That was a particularly good series of studies that were done...when that came out I was at university going through the PSW/Nursing school and we went through that study ourselves...my sleep schedule then was definite night owl!!!
Ya know Ed, dont even waste your breath, this armchair railroader knows more about our jobs than we do so just let him have his say, after all he knows guys who work for the railroad WOW!! We're all trying to hide something LMAO, yea OK. I dont drink, and I've been drug free my entire life, so test away if it makes you happy, I have nothing to hide. With every post he shows his ignorant colors and he keeps stuffing his foot in his mouth like so many other experts. It's funny, but sad as well.
He came on here with a vision that he was going to change the railroad world, some were interested, some were not. So what, that's life get over it not all ideas are met with warm fuzzy hugs.
So keep spewing your BS and keep crying like some child who doesn't get his way, and I'm gonna keep laughing, hell I might even show this to my co workers, they'll get a kick out of it.
You come on here and attack us with your ignorant remarks about something you couldn't buy a clue about, I never personally attacked you, I only expressed that I didn't buy into your idea. Get over yourself. But if that's how you want to be then fine, the gloves are off, so take your little box and your attitude and stick it sunshine.
Must have been the Super Moon what done it.....
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