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If RR Retirement was gone...

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Posted by henry6 on Tuesday, April 24, 2012 3:29 PM

diningcar

Henry, I  believe this was done in the Lyndon Johnson era. If someone knows exactly when please post it.

I'm repeating what I've read...but cannot verify my source anymore....I know Reagan liked the idea but it was not Reagan (nor Johnson for that matter) but rather Congress who raided SS for the General Fund, thus there was no longer an SS Trust Fund to accrue interest as in the past as a large amount was "borrowed" makeing it harder for the sum left to accrue and catch up.

 

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Posted by henry6 on Tuesday, April 24, 2012 3:29 PM

diningcar

Henry, I  believe this was done in the Lyndon Johnson era. If someone knows exactly when please post it.

I'm repeating what I've read...but cannot verify my source anymore....I know Reagan liked the idea but it was not Reagan (nor Johnson for that matter) but rather Congress who raided SS for the General Fund, thus there was no longer an SS Trust Fund to accrue interest as in the past as a large amount was "borrowed" makeing it harder for the sum left to accrue and catch up.

 

RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.

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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, April 24, 2012 4:10 PM

I am not sure what the problem is with RRR, or what the remedy is.  But if I were working for a railroad, this is what I would worry about:

 

Having RRR reduced in a way that amounts to a pay cut for future earnings.

 

Having RRR reduced in a way that amounts to depletion of past withholding.

 

 

The second item would be far more troublesome than the first.   

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Posted by henry6 on Tuesday, April 24, 2012 4:25 PM

If the story on Trains Newswire today..Tue 4-24-12...there is nothing wrong with Rairoad Retirement.  It is a program between railroad and employees and is not a government program like SS, etc.  However, there are Congressmen, apparently, who would like to get their hands on RRR and bring payments into line with SS payments.  They don't understand what RRR is or they don't want to be shown up by RRR with their poor managment of SS.

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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, April 24, 2012 5:10 PM

henry6

If the story on Trains Newswire today..Tue 4-24-12...there is nothing wrong with Rairoad Retirement.  It is a program between railroad and employees and is not a government program like SS, etc. 

I am not so sure of that.  From what I can discern, it is indeed a goverment program. 

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Posted by DwightBranch on Tuesday, April 24, 2012 6:23 PM

Prior to government-provided Social Security the poverty rate for the elderly was much higher than for the general population, I have seen estimates of around 80% in 1920. It is now lower than the average population. If we return to a Third World social safety net ("If you want a retirement income, you figure out the private financial system that even people who work there don't understand, Mr. Engineer")  there will be many poor retired railroaders.

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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, April 24, 2012 6:48 PM

henry6

If the story on Trains Newswire today..Tue 4-24-12...there is nothing wrong with Rairoad Retirement. 

My impression is that it has made promises that it cannot keep.  Is there any truth to the assertions that RRR has been "bailed out" by the taxpayers in the past?   

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Posted by henry6 on Tuesday, April 24, 2012 7:26 PM

Somehow the SS Administration was given the job of administering RRR but only the transaction to the recipient and gets "paid" by RRR for the service.  But as far as the government having any way of touching the RRR money, no, it has no authority.  As for RRR having its own financial problems, could be simply because there are so fewer contributing because of there being fewer railroaders.  Also there is something about railroaders income not subject to RRR but SS (work not done for a railroad) being accessable, etc. and at one point there was talk of railroad employees being able to choose between SS and RRR.  But those are the misty minded factoids I recall.  The article on the newswire indicates that the unions and the railroads have stated there are no problems with RRR and the government has no claim on the money.

 

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Posted by edblysard on Tuesday, April 24, 2012 7:59 PM

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Posted by edblysard on Tuesday, April 24, 2012 8:16 PM

The RR retirement fund is administered by the RR Board, a government agency that manages the fund.

The RRB is paid for by the contributions of the members, it is part of the tier 2 tax we pay.

Tier 2 taxes are the contributions we railroaders make to the fund, and the carriers also contributions.

The fund invests in things like bonds, CDs, boring stuff.

When I retire, because I worked outside the railroad industry I have a SS account, along with my RR retirement.

By law, I have to draw from the account which has the most money in it, until that account is exhausted, and then I can draw from the other, but not both at the same time.

3 guesses which one I will draw from!

The amount in the fund is made up from the contributions of the railroaders and the carriers.

On the other hand, I do pay tier 1 taxes, which is referred to as the Social Security Benefit Equivalency tax, basically my part of Medicare/Medicade and such, none of this goes into my SS account.

The laws changed a few years ago, allowing for railroaders to retire at 60 years of age, if, and only if they have 30 or more years of service total.

If I wait and retire after 30 years,(at 68) I will draw approximately 80% of my then current salary.

My spouse can draw 50%, and if she outlives me, she is entitled to my 80% along with her SS benefits.

If I outlive her, I cannot draw her SS benefits.

There has been attempts to fold RR retirement into SS, but it will not happen, as it is a private fund.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railroad_Retirement_Board

pretty accurate info.

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Posted by Georgia Railroader on Tuesday, April 24, 2012 9:46 PM

Thanks for posting Ed.

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Posted by Phoebe Vet on Tuesday, April 24, 2012 10:35 PM

No one raided anything.  The Social Security trust fund has always been invested in federal government securities.  It's the way the law was written in the 1930s.  It was right after the stock market crash and government instruments were considered safer.  They just never thought they would have to cash those securities.

What President Johnson did was a little slight of hand called the "Unified Budget".  It put all of the trust funds, with their surpluses, into the single budget so that the budget looked balanced even though the general fund was in serious deficit because of the Viet Nam war.  It was reversed several years later.

Dave

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Posted by diningcar on Tuesday, April 24, 2012 10:36 PM

I now have it confirmed from another site that it was in the Lyndon Johnson administration that Congress and the President were responsible for transfering the Social Security Funds to the Genreal Fund. The Democrats controlled both houses at that time.

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Posted by Phoebe Vet on Tuesday, April 24, 2012 10:44 PM

diningcar

I now have it confirmed from another site that it was in the Lyndon Johnson administration that Congress and the President were responsible for transfering the Social Security Funds to the Genreal Fund. The Democrats controlled both houses at that time.

That is not true.  The Social Security fund was never transferred into the general fund.  Your "other site" lied to you.

Dave

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Posted by diningcar on Tuesday, April 24, 2012 11:39 PM

Phoebe Vet, I am not aware that people deliberately lie at this site, but they may be mistaken. So please tell us where the SS money is at this time.

I believe that the checks are written from the general appropriations and not from a separate account. If I am mistaken I am sure you can document my mistake.

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Posted by Dakguy201 on Wednesday, April 25, 2012 4:43 AM

According to today's Newswire the budget passed by the House contained NO actual change to the RR Retirement system.  Rather, there was an accompanying report that listed possible areas for reform, including RR Retirement. 

In  addition, this budget is going nowhere in the Senate, and I think most people believe it would face a certain veto if enacted. 

I feel like a sucker for participating in the discussion of something that isn't going to happen! 

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Posted by zugmann on Wednesday, April 25, 2012 6:15 AM

Dakguy201
 

I feel like a sucker for participating in the discussion of something that isn't going to happen! 

 

Why?

 

Won't happen this year, but RRT will be in the cross-hairs yet again in the future.

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any

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Posted by BaltACD on Wednesday, April 25, 2012 6:46 AM

Dakguy201

According to today's Newswire the budget passed by the House contained NO actual change to the RR Retirement system.  Rather, there was an accompanying report that listed possible areas for reform, including RR Retirement. 

In  addition, this budget is going nowhere in the Senate, and I think most people believe it would face a certain veto if enacted. 

I feel like a sucker for participating in the discussion of something that isn't going to happen! 

Just because something doesn't happen in on session of Congress (or your State Legislature or City Council) doesn't mean that it won't be tried again in the next session.

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

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Posted by Stourbridge Lion on Wednesday, April 25, 2012 10:51 AM

Reminder to keep the topic within policies of the site which I understand can be tough based on the subject matter but it is the rules we have to live under and that I am to enforce as one of your Moderators...

- No political discussions or signature messages. We know, railroads are sometimes affected by politics. However, we’ve found that political discussions almost always turn into arguments. We have a common thread of being interested in railroads. Don’t let that common bond be destroyed by political differences.

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Posted by Phoebe Vet on Wednesday, April 25, 2012 10:58 AM

diningcar

Phoebe Vet, I am not aware that people deliberately lie at this site, but they may be mistaken. So please tell us where the SS money is at this time.

I believe that the checks are written from the general appropriations and not from a separate account. If I am mistaken I am sure you can document my mistake.

http://www.ssa.gov/history/BudgetTreatment.html 

Your mistake is hereby documented.

As far as where is the money now:  Where is the money you have in your savings account or your 401-k?  Is it in a drawer at the bank or your broker?  No; it is in an account and the institution owes it to you.  That is how the economy works.

Dave

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Posted by diningcar on Wednesday, April 25, 2012 11:43 AM

[quote user="Phoebe Vet"]

diningcar:

Phoebe Vet, I am not aware that people deliberately lie at this site, but they may be mistaken. So please tell us where the SS money is at this time.

I believe that the checks are written from the general appropriations and not from a separate account. If I am mistaken I am sure you can document my mistake.

 

http://www.ssa.gov/history/BudgetTreatment.html 

Your mistake is hereby documented.

As far as where is the money now:  Where is the money you have in your savings account or your 401-k?  Is it in a drawer at the bank or your broker?  No; it is in an account and the institution owes it to you.  That is how the economy works.

Are you acknowledging that the employee and company contributions to Social Security are NOW COMINGLED with other tax receipts, while they ONCE WERE SEPARATED???

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Posted by Phoebe Vet on Wednesday, April 25, 2012 4:31 PM

diningcar

Are you acknowledging that the employee and company contributions to Social Security are NOW COMINGLED with other tax receipts, while they ONCE WERE SEPARATED???

Absolutely not.  Did you even read the link?  The trust fund is invested in government securities as it has been since the 1930s.  You can buy the same securities if you like.  It is NOT co-mingled with the general fund.  The 1968 "unified budget" was just a deceptive way to report the deficit to make it look smaller than it really was.  The various dedicated funds were never rolled into the general fund, their surpluses were just reported together with the general fund to make the general fund deficit look smaller.  It is no longer used.

FYI, the PBGC, a government program, protects many members of private sector pension plans in much the same way that the FDIC protects your bank deposits.

http://www.pbgc.gov/about/who-we-are.html 

Dave

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Posted by edblysard on Wednesday, April 25, 2012 6:32 PM

To get back to Zug's original question, if it wasn't for the benefits, would people in the industry stick around....

For me, the answer would be maybe yes, maybe no, simply because I can make the same money if I went back as an investigator for the Attorney General, State of Texas, and the retirement package there isn't all that bad....not as good as RR retirement, but better than a lot of private sector packages.

That plus weekends off with my family, and allowances for fuel and travel would sway me a lot.

I would miss the times railroading can be fun, and those time are a lot more often than the days you wonder why oh why did you ever decide to do this for a living, but the knowledge that my investment plan plus my railroad retirement will allow my wife and I to live, while not in the lap of luxury, at least comfortably enough to do a lot of things and go a lot of places we want is pretty much the thing that holds me here.

Add in the fact that my wife still works for the agency, and only has a few years left before she can pull the plug, sticking here makes sense.

Plus, if I went back to the AG's office, I would have to deal with the scum of the earth on a daily basis again, which is way beyond the stress anything railroad can throw at you.

So, all things considered, the retirement does play a big part of my staying, but is not the only factor.

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Posted by Phoebe Vet on Wednesday, April 25, 2012 8:31 PM

A really good pension package is like golden handcuffs.  It keeps your people with 10 or 15 years of training and experience from one day saying "I don't want to do this anymore".

If your pension fund is fully funded, you can sometimes avoid having to lay people off by asking your most senior (& highest paid) people:  "How would you like to retire a few years early?" thus moving their cost from the payroll to the retirement fund.

Dave

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Posted by Convicted One on Thursday, April 26, 2012 2:32 PM

I believe that if someone is in ANY industry for the retirement plan alone, then  they are likely in the wrong business.

 

 

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Posted by Murphy Siding on Friday, April 27, 2012 7:21 AM

Convicted One

I believe that if someone is in ANY industry for the retirement plan alone, then  they are likely in the wrong business.

 

 

   Exactly!  And that's why no one on this thread  is saying this. 

      The retirement plan in ANY industry is part of the whole compensation package.  If part of the compensation package is changed, that would change, for better or for worse, how that industry competes with other industries for qualified employees.

     Why can't the rilroad industry change the retirement  program over to 401k type program with employer contributions like other industries?  Is there some advantage to having Uncle Sam involved?  It appears there may be some disadvantges to having the federal government involved.

    

Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.

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Posted by Phoebe Vet on Friday, April 27, 2012 7:30 AM

In the not too distant future this country is going to deeply regret the move from defined benefit retirement plans to individual 401-k type accounts.

With that said, we have beat this to death, I am going to move on.

Dave

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Posted by zugmann on Friday, April 27, 2012 7:31 AM

Phoebe Vet

In the not too distant future this country is going to deeply regret the move from defined benefit retirement plans to individual 401-k type accounts.

With that said, we have beat this to death, I am going to move on.

 

Thanks for stopping by.

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

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Posted by oltmannd on Friday, April 27, 2012 9:21 AM

Phoebe Vet

A really good pension package is like golden handcuffs.  It keeps your people with 10 or 15 years of training and experience from one day saying "I don't want to do this anymore".

That, and having to start over on the vacation time ladder.

-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/

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Posted by jeffhergert on Friday, April 27, 2012 9:54 AM

A few weeks ago at our last union meeting, we had a representative from RRB to explain benefits, etc.  From what she said, RR retirement is in better shape than Social Security.  Eventually it too, will run into some of the same problems, but barring major changes to the status quo (like politicians tinkering or major employment losses, etc) that date is farther out.

Most discussions about any possible changes being made make it look like just the unions are upset and worried.  The companies also don't want to see any changes.  Management also receive RRR when they retire.

Murphy, UP does have a 40lk program for employees.  I think non-agreement employees do receive matching contributions from the company.  Agreement employees do not at this time. 

Jeff 

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