What was the singlemost damaging invention that hurt the railroads?

[Overmod]

I think that a meaningful answer to this question might have to involve different periods of history.

In the 1800s, one significant "invention" was the perception of railroads in the eyes of courts and judges. One aspect of this was the formation of the ICC.

In the early 1900s, a problem with government (1906, 1917, etc), coupled with ICC insistence on non-abandonment of uneconomic "public" services.

Impact of early automobiles was MUCH more pronounced on trolleys and interurban service, and on precisely the kind of passenger service the railroads least wanted or needed to maintain. Ditto for long-haul trucking... not really a major factor up to the 1940s, I think.

Interstate system a MAJOR contributor to railroad problems, in several respects, but it's different for freight and for passenger:

Subsidized road construction & maintenance via dedicated fuel tax
Implicit construction, and maintenance, to heavy-truck standards. Could any single truck line, no matter how large, have afforded to construct, or even maintain, its own road network, let alone pay property taxes, etc. and deal with lawsuits over access and crossings?

Modern automobiles are just too cost-effective, *once you've invested in them for one reason or another*, in making convenient trips -- at the desired time, with multiple passengers and plenty of 'baggage', going directly to the destination with no diversions, and allowing stops for choice of food, attractions, sleep, etc. I think the first 'wave' came with the building of major state and US highways, but the real impact of convenience and speed came with the Interstates. Seems clear that automobile design and highway design went hand-in-hand from the mid-'50s all the way up past 1973, facilitating large cars with big engines

Continued tolerance of property taxation (often at high valuation) for railroads

Development of catalytic cracking, large West Texas oil reserves, etc. which made it cheap to operate automobiles.

Introduction of turbojet aircraft in domestic passenger service -- this essentially spelled the doom of the Pullman car just as it meant the effective end of the Atlantic passenger liner. Beebe and Clegg describe a great dying off of passenger business in 1957, just as the jets were making one-day transcontinental travel practical. I don't find this coincidental.

Funny thing -- I can't really find any more recent "inventions" that hurt the railroads badly after this point. I leave out whiz-kid management theories, Canadian-style financial 'innovation' (cf. the Reichman disaster with Santa Fe Southern Pacific) and lawyers running things (need I say more than "Stuart Saunders"?) as not being in the spirit of the original question...

[mecovey]

Interesting answers but I think the invention that hurt the railroads the most was probably the featherbed.

[vsmith]

Oh yeah I remember that show, James Burke was the host a typical episode started with mining in the 13th century and the need to get water out of the mines and one invention influences another an Fooom! we end up at the A-bomb having a direct connection thru the ages to a donkey powered water pump! Mind blowing show!

[jeaton]

Anybody remember the PBS series "Connections"? The premise of the show was that a human need of perhaps many centuries ago lead to an invention or innovation that in turn produced a new need that lead to a new invention, etc.

A show on transportation had the host/writer standing in the bay of a 747 Cargo Plane, and then went to the beginning of the thread, starting with boats. Fascinating. We could say it all began when we first learned to stand upright.

Jay

[trainfan1221]

I guess that sums it up, that's progress!

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

....You didn't have a motorcycle before you had the engine...

...Which started as a steam piston, until someone tried powering it with kerosine and might have remained a heavy slow turning pump motor if someone hadnt tried bolting it to a bike.....[:D]


we could go on like this for days! [:p]

chicken!

egg!

chicken!

egg!

Dang, I hadnt thought of this, if the steam piston came first then someone started using kerosine combustion to pu***he piston instead of steam then its the steam piston thats resposible for the kerosine moter and hence..the gasoline motor!

OH MY GOD That means that the single most damaging invention that hurt the railroads was....

...The STEAM LOCOMOTIVE!!!!!!!!

[:o)][:p][:)][;)][:D]

must go lie down now....need medicine.....my brain hurts...

[jeffhergert]

The internal combustion engine and improved (all weather) roads. Not only hurt the railroads, but also rural America.
The Des Moines Register every once in a while runs articles on how to help dying small towns. This same paper proudly boasts that back in the 30s in was leader of public opinion in getting better roads. "Get Iowa out of the mud." So what happens? People can travel farther to do shopping. Instead of going to your local town, you go to the county seat. Now the roads improve even more, instead of going to the county seat you go to a regional metro area or the state capitol. Meanwhile, the small town gets smaller and smaller.
To me, the railroads built rural America. The internal combustion engine and improved roads are dismantling it. Both railroads and small towns may survive, but way different than what used to be.
Jeff

[Modelcar]

....You didn't have a motorcycle before you had the engine...

[vsmith]

It was the developement of the bicycle INTO the motorcycle and then the automobile that spurred the developemnt of the gas powered internal combustion engine in the first place.

No Bike--- No internal gas engine

at least not in the form that we know it today

[Anonymous]

The BYCYCLE? Let's just go all the way back and blame Grog, who I believe was the first to chisel a wheel out of a boulder.

[Modelcar]

....The bicycle is a good start but would never in itself been a threat to the railroads....And of course the horseless carriages would have remained "horsepowerless" if the Internal combustion engine wouldn't have come along....So what was missing that made the threat possible....The engine. And the question was: "What was the single most damaging invention.....etc..."

[vsmith]

I've got a Bike
You can ride it
if you like
its got a basket
a bell that rings
and things to make it look good

I'd give it to you
but I borrowed it



Pink Floyd

[vsmith]

Well I you want to be that specific, it wasnt the development of the infernal combustion engine , you have to go farther back than that. RR were doomed by...

...the Bicycle!

Huh? your saying,well think about it. The foot powered bicycle was invented around 1780 but was nothing more than a curiosity until the development of the Pennyfarthing highwheeler bikes of the 1870's, it was not a safe thing to ride, but it did bring about an extreme interest in the development of the bicycle as a transportation device, hence research into ligher metal frame materials, rubber tires, spoked wheels and pedals and brake technics. The forerunner of the modern bike, the Safety Bike, was invented around 1870, to it was added the chain drive and wheels of equal size hence and pnuematic tube tires making for a far more stable and comfortable ride. This bike was a phenominal success. NY in the 1880's looked like China in the 1970's, bikes everywhere. But some wanted to go faster and began experimenting whith adding kerosine powered motors which were originally experimented with as portable pump motors. These were slow turning heavy low power motors but they did allow the cyclist to go faster than feet alone would (this is in the days long before modern gears were added in the 1930's). This inspired again a huge boom in bike R&D into lighter engines, more powerfull output, smoother running, and it wasnt long before someone got the idea of adding a gas motor to a carraige frame and by the late 1880's and early 1890's the first "horseless carraiges" began to appear. By the turn of the century the Bicycle had spawned the motorcycle which had spawned the automobile, all using technology originally developed for the bicycle, Ligthweight metal frames, rubber pnuematic tires, chain drives, cable drum brakes, gas then electric headlights, spring suspension, etc. Henry Ford can along and added the assembly line to the *** offspring of the bike and the rest is all too well known...Also a couple of bicycle maker from Dayton Ohio applied all the knowledge they had about how to build lightwieght strong structures learned from bike making along with their own unique research, added a lightwieght gasoline motor that used technology from the motorbike world, mounted it all into a strange looking box-kite machine with propellors, and the rest is literally history...

So the BIKE is to blame for the infernal combustion engine and by default, the motorcycle, the automobile, AND the airplane.[;)]

[Modelcar]

...Look at the original question....and I believe the internal combustion engine as we know it and as it was later applied to autos and trucks...has to be right up there for a threat that went against the railroads and started the downfall....Sure we needed them for the power in later railroad engines but that was not part of the question.

[vsmith]

Its a tie between two developemnts of the second half of the 20th century,

1st was the development of the Interstate Highway system, this allowed trucks to take intercity traffic and later long distance traffic away from the railroads.

2nd was the development of the passenger jet airliner in the late 50's, prior to this trains were seen the Chic and safe way to travel, airliners were still seen as an expensive and potentially dangerous thrill seekers way to travel. Aircraft still flew low, thru all sorts of bad weather, and often crashed on landing, takeoff or in bad weather or to navigational error. After the introduction of the first really safe airliner, the 707, perceptions began to change. The 707 could fly higher faster and had an extremely good safety record. As more and more airliners came on the scene, travelers took to the airliner as the Chic way to travel and abandoned rail travel. Why sit on a train for 3 days from NY to Los Angeles when you could fly and be there in 7 hours. This same event doomed almost all ocean liner travel as well as the trains. 6 days or 10 hours NY to Southampton ?

In many respects the RR's were just a victim of the evolution of transportation from one mode to another, just as the RRs doomed the Erie Canal and the Pony Express and steamships doomed the majestic clipper ships.

[locomutt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

....The internal combustion engine.

Without the advent,or invention of the infernal combustion engine;we wouldn't have trains as we know them today.

All the answers make sense,but my particluar thought is the vehicle,particularly the trucks,even 'tho the railroads carry their trailers on their flat cars.[:)]

[Anonymous]

OK, so how 'bout gasoline???

LC

[Anonymous]

I think LeftLimp was the most harmful invention...

LC

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Randy Stahl

Look in your driveway.
Randy

Yeah Asphalt has to be one of them, without it we'd be driving in mud...

LC

[spankybird]

I have to think the interstate highway system, with trucks for freight and cars for short passenger service, then airplanes for long distance passenger service.

[Modelcar]

....The internal combustion engine.

[jchnhtfd]

It's not an invention, but I'd nominate dimwit town planning and zoning which spread people and businesses out all over everywhere, making highways almost mandatory and reducing the concentration of people and business...

[BaltACD]

The Interstate Highway System

Built with Governmental monies, laid out with modern earth moving technologies in mind with regard to minimum distance between A & B (not minimum gradient and minimum earth moving as was derigur in the middle 1800's when rail lines were laid out).

The Interstate system facilitates the effective movement of motor vehicles (passenger & freight) over long distances with minimum personal effort and no scheduling required. Trips that took 3 hard driving days before the Interstates are now done in 10 to 12 hours for both cars and trucks.

[cherokee woman]

T R U C K S !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [angel]

[Mookie]

Crossings!

[pat390]

automobile because it led to the semi truck

[Anonymous]

I don't think it can be argued that any single invention hurt the railroads, because the theoretical efficiencies inherent in modern railroading (the ability to move bulk commodities at speed) are still in place, and as yet no other transport mode has been able to match that dynamic. Trucks can move product at speed, but are inhibited by only being able to move up to 50 tons at a time, and frankly are restricted to 70 mph or less on most highways. Barges can move bulk commodities at will, but are limited to 7 mph and are restricted to areas with sufficient water draft.

The problem with railroads is that they do not come close to realizing their potential due to federal regulations, mismanagement, regional monopolistic behaviors, et al. There is no logical reason why railroads cannot move 10,000 tons across the country at 80 mph or more, or better yet 125 trailers at 100 mph. Remember the average speeds of the Hiawathas, Zephyrs, M-100001s back in the 1930's being around 75 mph with top speeds of 100+ mph? You'd think that with today's technologies, TOFC consists would be able to match or beat those speed marks over much of the country. If so, the railroads would own 90% of cross country merchandise shipments, since they would be able to beat the long haul trucker's times.

We don't really need any new inventions to accompli***his, just the willingness of railroad management and government regulatory bodies to allow the operation and maintenance of certain rail corridors to achieve these speeds. Railroads seem to have chosen the slow bulk movement option back in the early 1900's rather than furthering development of fast bulk movements. Look at the growth sectors in our economy, and you'll see the greatest growth potential is in fast merchandise movements, not slow bulk movements. Indeed, slow bulk movements are either a stagnant economic sector or even a dying economic sector (coal shipments notwithstanding).

Rather than continuing the expensive development of mainline tracks to handle the 315k car, railroads should go back to the 263k standard (or maybe even the 220k standard) and combine that with speed logistics to achieve greater combined efficiency gains, and therefore take advantage of the growth sectors of our economy.

Dave Smith

[Anonymous]

Cars, trucks are second in my list.

[StillGrande]

The past: The interstate highway system

The future: I want it or what it does, but don't put it in my backyard!

[Anonymous]

Automobiles (mostly trucks) have done the most damage.