Good evening, What is the main difference between a Trainmaster and Road foreman or Enginenes? Please let me know thank you.
Conductor & Engineer
Trainmasters supervise conductors & trainmen
Road Foreman supervise Engineers.
With the proper training it is not that uncommon for them to trade positions if the carrier desires.
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On some railroads both had the same authorities but most likely they were seperate. Both operated under the authority of the division superintendent. Trainmasters were in charge of train operations for specific locations from as large as a division to just one station, yard, or terminal including all personnel in train or other services; he supervises schedules, rosters, rules administration and testing, all yards and yardmasters, coordinating with dispatchers. A Road Foreman of Engines supervises locomotive assignements along with personnel involved in preparing and operation of locomotives and trains. He may have the same powers as the Trainmaster overall and will work in tandem and in conjunction with the TM or he may work as an assistant of adjunct to the TM. Each railroad has its own rules and definitions and it is best to check any given railroad's books of rules and operating timetables.
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RFEs are often promoted engineers, and have more technical expertise in the 'nuts-and-bolts' mechanics and operation of the locomotive and especially the air brake systems, particularly in mountain railroad territory. (The PRR and CR also had Air Brake Supervisors in those areas.)
The TM is usually more of a "generalist" and concerned with schedules, budgets, personnel, interacting with higher levels of management, the public, regulators, etc.
These are simplifications, and as BaltACD says, there can be a lot of overlap, depending on the skills of the person and the needs and practices of each railroad.
- Paul North.
The Trainmaster is normally the customers 'goto guy' when they are having a service issue in how crews are switching the customers facility, as the Trainmaster is the direct supervisor of those crews and is involved in setting crew assignments to service the customers on his territory; this includes when and where jobs start and how much service any particular customer is supposed to get.
Perhaps an apt description of trainmaster would be "general manager." The last one I knew personally was promoted from dispatcher.
Whereas the RFE would be a "shop foreman." I've read many a story where the RFE is in the cab on some special train or another, oftimes running.
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Outside of major terminals, the positions of TM & RFE have become combined into one job. At other locations where there might be more than one TM, usually the senior TM holds the combined TM/RFE title. It doesn;t take much to obtain one of these jobs. Many TM's have gone directly into the job coming out of college or military, while one RFE had less than one yr of eng service before taking the job. Pay isn't that great either. Most train crews make higher wages than their first line supervisior counterparts.
As has been noted often, each railroad had and has its own way of doing things either by the entire road, or by division or by location or by date. That's the only generalization we can make when it comes to railroad personnel and railroad operations. Not mentioned is that I've heard of yardmasters being trainmasters and vice versa someplace. I've known trainmasters who've come up through the ranks of train service, up from the ranks of agents and operators, up from the ranks of engine service, and assigned as a trainmaster right off the podium with college diploma in hand. Some, I am sure, have even been shop stewards, too.
SFbrkmn Pay isn't that great either. Most train crews make higher wages than their first line supervisior counterparts.
Pay isn't that great either. Most train crews make higher wages than their first line supervisior counterparts.
That's not that unusual in any situation, even outside of railroading, especially when overtime is involved. I took a hit in the wallet when I held a management slot, the basic pay rate was higher but I lost the overtime.
CSSHEGEWISCH SFbrkmn: Pay isn't that great either. Most train crews make higher wages than their first line supervisior counterparts. That's not that unusual in any situation, even outside of railroading, especially when overtime is involved. I took a hit in the wallet when I held a management slot, the basic pay rate was higher but I lost the overtime.
SFbrkmn: Pay isn't that great either. Most train crews make higher wages than their first line supervisior counterparts.
To wit - the eternal exhortation of upper level management -" eliminate the Overtime of your subordinates and you will be the highest paid". Not possible in reality, but they keep making it a issue.
Too often getting to be Trainmaster or RFE because of one's abilities does not lead to better management. Not only is he charged with eliminating overtime but he is asked to do overtime himself with no overtime pay or benefits. His hourly rate decreases everytimethe telephone rings so that a 100 hour week becomes common; that leads to either fatigue and poor performance or he quits and goes back to the ranks where he can make the same or more money with or without overtime but without the fatigue and pressures of a 100 hour week. Family likes him better, too....actually see for that matter.
Lately on my railroad they have stopped promoting people from the ranks to be a Trainmaster. Now they are filled by young college graduates with absolutely no experience in railroad operations. Since the latest generation will change careers an average of five times in their lifetime the company has promised promotions to retain them. I have seen experienced managers and directors with over 30 years of experience passed by for promotions by these young kids with less than five years of employment.
Road Foremen however have to have a locomotive engineer's licence to hold that position so the company looks for young college graduates from the ranks that have obtained an engineer's promotion. Most of the time is is an individual with very little engineer's seniority. For years now the railroad industry is trying to become more diverse when filling officers positions so being a minority or a female is a plus when seeking a promotion.
A Trainmaster's duty is to manage the crews and their job assignments on their assigned territory. Also, many times Trainmasters can be found in towers controlling movements in major yards along side yardmasters. Trainmasters also handle rules classes and are responsible for Conductors and Trainmen on their assigned territory.
A Road Foreman of Engines sole responsibility is to make sure all engineers under his assigned territory remain qualified and available for service. This means all testing and physicals must be up to date. He or she also often pulls tapes and performs banner checks to make sure an engineer is performing according to the rules. They keep track of their engineer's work history and discipline engineers who mark off on a regular basis. They also assist or fill in for Trainmasters when needed.
This is the same story I heard told by rank and file back in the 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's. But I have also known many who came up through the ranks during that time...and those are the one's who lasted.
As anyone who has gone from labor to management knows, the set of skills that makes you a first-rate line worker is different from the set that makes you a first-rate supervisor or manager. A good engineer may or may not be a good RFE, the reverse is also true.
Isn't that the so called Peter Principal?...one is raised to the level of his incompetence. So true, there are those who are excellent at the task or tasks at hand but cannot transfer that talent to managing others doing the same or other jobs. And the reverse can be true, too. One can analyze and see situations and manage people and the project well without tons of experience. The secret is for upper level management to seek, find, and get what they need from their candidates. Nepotism, senioroty, favoritism, or other thoughtless selection or just to hide someone off in no man's land, often backfires.
henry6Isn't that the so called Peter Principal?...one is raised to the level of his incompetence.
henry6...just to hide someone off in no man's land..
Something akin to what Peter calls the "lateral arabesque," a promotion that really isn't a promotion.
I took some management classes years ago during my USAF tours. One point I recall being made was that a good manager doesn't necessarily have to know anything about what he's managing. That assumes that all he/she does is manage - that they don't have to actually perform the work being done.
There is, of course a "break point," with managers on one side having to be actively involved in the tasks at hand (ie, RFE), and the folks on the other never setting foot on the production floor.
Any senior enlisted rank in the military (i.e., Sergeant or Chief, etc.) could say much the same about the junior officers in that branch (i.e., Lieutenants and Ensigns, etc.)
I just re-read an expression in A Treasury of Railroad Folklore (Botkin & Harlow, 1953, page 311, 2nd para., 1st 3 lines):
"As long as they make trainmasters out of clerks, train crews'll have good jobs. They'll always make a dollar. Because they always have repetition of things."
Later on I want to transcribe a story from the 3rd paragraph on that page - kind of reminds me of zug's dilemma a couple of weeks ago.
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