I heard that Amtrak is discussing the idea to move the route of the Southwest Chief through Texas instead of through western Kansas. Is this true and why move an established route through Texas ?
Simple BNSF is more than likely about to tell them they have topay for all the Maintance over Raton Pass and the Juantia Sub thru Colorado as they are the only trains just about that use it. Also rerouting it opens up Amarillo and a couple other cities Amtrack serivice.
[quote user="jim1944"]
THIS IS AN ONGOING DISCUSSION, NOTHING NEW. FURTHER, WHATEVER AMTRAK MAY DISCUSS OR STUDY WILL HAVE TO PASS THE POLITICAL "SMELL TEST".
BNSF HAS SUGGESTED AND OFFERED THE ROUTE THROUGH AMARILLO BUT THERE WILL HAVE TO BE A SUBSTANTIAL INVESTMENT BY AMTRAK FOR INFRASTRUCTURE SINCE THERE ARE NO PASSENGER FACILITIES CURRENTLY AVAILABLE. ALSO, THIS ROUTE DOES NOT HAVE AUTOMATIC TRAIN STOP SO MAXIMUM SPEED WILL BE 79 MPH.
Diningcar ATS was disabled on the Raton route a few years ago due to the Tracks Condition and the max speed is now 79 MPH there also.
There are areas on the present route that are 79 MPH or less, but ATS is in place, if maintained , over a substantial part of the route between Newton and Albuquerque.
diningcar There are areas on the present route that are 79 MPH or less, but ATS is in place, if maintained , over a substantial part of the route between Newton and Albuquerque.
I doubt BNSF wants Amtrak on the Transcon, where the 79mph trains would force 70mph trains to wait in the hole while Amtrak runs around them. I would bet that BNSF wants them to stay where they are but to pay more for maintenance, and possibly even get the states (Kansas and Colorado) to buy what is left after New Mexico already has bought its section. They are also faced with the PTC mandate, and they wouldn't pay it if the states owned it. BNSF and Warren Buffett have generally been pro-Amtrak but they probably feel like they shouldn't get stuck more than UP.
DwightB,
BNSF has offered Amtrak the option to use the southern route. Whatever your informed(?) doubts may be the offer is out there.
I suggest that we at this forum are not sufficiently informed so that we may make judgements about things like this one.
When Congress mandated the PTC law for the rail industry it was written in the language that Amtrk routes would be required to operate only on PTC trkage, so the telecom dept states. BNSF is currently in the process of installing PTC from KC west to Newton. However, PTC is not going to be installed on the La Junta Sub west of Newton. If Amtrk indeed is not allowed on non PTC trk, then its automatic at some future date that 3&4 will be rerouted to the Panhandle Sub. As a worker on the La Junta Sub I can't say this is pleasing to the ears and leads one to wonder if the BNSF era in wstrn KS may indeed be in its final few yrs.
I very much doubt that BNSF truly wants AMTK's SW Chief on their "Transcon" mainline. Yes, they have made the overtures to Amtrak wrt this but Amtrak will be much better off staying on the Raton Pass mainline. No matter how much work BNSF has done on the Transcon, the Raton Pass mainline always has been and always will be the fastest way from Chicago to the Motherland.
If the option for Amtrak is to take over the maintenance of the rail line through Raton for the exclusive use of the Southwest Chief, or have the states assume responsibility for it, it does not make sense financially. This is especially true for a passenger railroad that needs approximately $1 of subsidy for every $2 of revenue. That's for Amtrak's total system operations. It is even worse for the long distance trains.
If the decision is to re-route the Chief through Amarillo, Amtrak may not be on the hook for building new stations or re-opening dormant ones. As is the case for most of the stations served by Amtrak's long distance trains, the stations are or would be owned by the taxpayers in the communities served. They would be on the hook for the cost of building new facilities or re-opening existing ones.
All of the Texas stations served by Amtrak are owned by the municipalities in which they are located. In many instances they have multiple uses. For example, the Intermodal Transportation Center in Fort Worth is used by Amtrak, Greyhound, and the 'T", which is the transit agency for Fort Worth. I believe Amtrak pays rent for its use of a small portion of the facility. Of the 13 stations between Texarkana and San Antonio severed by the Texas Eagle, nine of them have a ticket agent. At the other four Amtrak does not have a physical presence. I believe the total cost of these facilities is borne by the community's taxpayers.
diningcar DwightB, BNSF has offered Amtrak the option to use the southern route. Whatever your informed(?) doubts may be the offer is out there. I suggest that we at this forum are not sufficiently informed so that we may make judgements about things like this one.
According to this article:
http://www.therepublic.com/view/story/a426e11b5cbf49328d1bf9d47330e436/KS--Garden-City-Rail-Summit/
"BNSF is not encouraging or even discussing moving the Southwest Chief from its current route. We will continue to accommodate Amtrak service on the existing route at whatever speeds Amtrak is willing to support," BNSF spokesman Steve Forsberg said in an earlier statement.
The question then, as with CN in Illinois, is what "what ever speeds" BNSF is responsible for. Amtrak cannot be expected to pay for the maintenance costs above, say, 40mph for their two 9 car 150 ton trains per day.
Way back in 1998 i heard that BNSF wanted Amtrak off of Raton Pass and Amtrak is still on raton pass in 2012 14 years ago they told to get off of the line.
DwightBranch The question then, as with CN in Illinois, is what "what ever speeds" BNSF is responsible for. Amtrak cannot be expected to pay for the maintenance costs above, say, 40mph for their two 9 car 150 ton trains per day.
They already are responsible..
http://hutchnews.com/Localregional/city-council-advance--12012-03-04T18-33-11
"In a memo prepared for the council, City Manager John Deardoff said that Burlington Northern Santa Fe (BNSF) owns the tracks but under an agreement with Amtrak has to maintain the track only to support 45 mph traffic. Additional costs to support higher speed passenger traffic are passed along to Amtrak."
An "expensive model collector"
n012944 DwightBranch: The question then, as with CN in Illinois, is what "what ever speeds" BNSF is responsible for. Amtrak cannot be expected to pay for the maintenance costs above, say, 40mph for their two 9 car 150 ton trains per day. They already are responsible.. http://hutchnews.com/Localregional/city-council-advance--12012-03-04T18-33-11 "In a memo prepared for the council, City Manager John Deardoff said that Burlington Northern Santa Fe (BNSF) owns the tracks but under an agreement with Amtrak has to maintain the track only to support 45 mph traffic. Additional costs to support higher speed passenger traffic are passed along to Amtrak."
DwightBranch: The question then, as with CN in Illinois, is what "what ever speeds" BNSF is responsible for. Amtrak cannot be expected to pay for the maintenance costs above, say, 40mph for their two 9 car 150 ton trains per day.
According to Fred Frailey, BNSF Railway has been sending Amtrak monthly bills for maintenance of the right of way between LaJunta, Colo., and Lamy, N.M. BNSF reasons that because it hasn't run freight trains over this track for some 18 months, any upkeep of the line is Amtrak's responsibility. But Amtrak has not been paying these bills.
To add a link from the Hutchinson[hutchnews.com)News.com of 03/22/2012:
http://hutchnews.com/Localregional/3RD-WIRE-STORY-IN-Amtrak-1st-Ld-Writethru-20120222
" Garden City Approves Support of AMTRAK Route"
This link has some more depth as to the Coalition of cities being formed to advocate the current route vs. the proposed(?) new routing ( Down the UPRR's OKT sub (nee: Rock Island) (?) Apparently, Bob Dole has offered them Pro Bono legal services.
Then there was this earlier link from 03/21/2012 from The Garden City Telegram:
http://www.gctelegram.com/news/HUTCH-KS-Amtrak-SouthwestChief-122111
Published 12/21/2011 in News By JOHN GREEN
And playing right along and in conjunction with this reroute issue for the SWC is the Kansas DOT's study of an extension for the Heartland Flyers from OKC to Wichita, connection with SWC at Newton,Ks, and on to possibly KC area via Topeka. Apparently, Kansa DOT's efforts were put on the back burner by Gov. Brownback who is not for this extension (?). Funding for any further studies have been spiked by a severe cut back in funding for that(?) effort by the Brownback Administration.
The current political climate at the state level in Kansas does not favor any financial support for Amtrak. Popular opinion in the communities is strongly in favor of encouraging any effort to keep the current route through SW Kansas and local governments are ponying up some funding for lobbying efforts (for all the good that will do). Volunteers who man the waiting room in the restored (to the tune of $10 milion) and re-purposed historic Santa Fe Depot at Dodge City have collected overwhelmingly positive written comments from thousands of passengers who come from four states to board #3 and #4.
I get most of the political/fiscal arguments which have been advanced, but there are social, environmental, and cultural issues involved as well that typically get steamrolled by the politicians and I believe the voice of the people shouldn't be ignored. (Apologies for the 60's-era cliche, but that's what it really boils down to.)
Dave,
Which voice of the people should be heard? The we do not have any money to spend on that, OR I sure love trains
Mac
The Chief already misses the most populous city between its endpoints -- Phoenix, which is served by a 3 hour bus ride. If you move the route, you introduce a 30 minute bus or train ride to Albuquerque or making a wye move at Albuquerque to reverse direction. Neither option seems very attractive. Although I'm not a fan of Amtrak operating west of the Mississippi, they have my sympathy in this case; there just isn't a good choice.
I personally think that one of the things that's been missing for a LONG, long time is a link from Denver to either Trinidad/La Junta to connect with the SW Chief. Now, if only the clueless morons at CDOT could get their act together.......
Choice C: neither of the above. What is apparent from the ground here is that there is a significant number of the travelling public who, while they understand money issues at least as well as politicians and have little or no interest in railroads as a hobby, nevertheless have a legitimate interest in utilizing travel options other than highway or air. And, at the risk of re-igniting a wildfire, I think there is a valid case for long-distance passenger trains, even through low-density areas (and not just because I happen to live in such an area). The major hot-button issues can be resolved if some sort of sober-minded consensus could be achieved.
davews Choice C: neither of the above. What is apparent from the ground here is that there is a significant number of the travelling public who, while they understand money issues at least as well as politicians and have little or no interest in railroads as a hobby, nevertheless have a legitimate interest in utilizing travel options other than highway or air. And, at the risk of re-igniting a wildfire, I think there is a valid case for long-distance passenger trains, even through low-density areas (and not just because I happen to live in such an area). The major hot-button issues can be resolved if some sort of sober-minded consensus could be achieved.
Dave - This is especially true for residents of SE Colorado and northern New Mexico who simply do not have viable transportation alternatives other than the SW Chief. That's why it needs to stay on the Raton Pass mainline.
Los Angeles Rams Guy davews: Choice C: neither of the above. What is apparent from the ground here is that there is a significant number of the travelling public who, while they understand money issues at least as well as politicians and have little or no interest in railroads as a hobby, nevertheless have a legitimate interest in utilizing travel options other than highway or air. And, at the risk of re-igniting a wildfire, I think there is a valid case for long-distance passenger trains, even through low-density areas (and not just because I happen to live in such an area). The major hot-button issues can be resolved if some sort of sober-minded consensus could be achieved. Dave - This is especially true for residents of SE Colorado and northern New Mexico who simply do not have viable transportation alternatives other than the SW Chief. That's why it needs to stay on the Raton Pass mainline.
davews: Choice C: neither of the above. What is apparent from the ground here is that there is a significant number of the travelling public who, while they understand money issues at least as well as politicians and have little or no interest in railroads as a hobby, nevertheless have a legitimate interest in utilizing travel options other than highway or air. And, at the risk of re-igniting a wildfire, I think there is a valid case for long-distance passenger trains, even through low-density areas (and not just because I happen to live in such an area). The major hot-button issues can be resolved if some sort of sober-minded consensus could be achieved.
As Davews and LA RamsGuy have indicated there is a building swell of interest in the areas along the current SWChiefs routing. As I previously reported there is also a movement to support the current routing via Raton Pass, and its' current stops west of Newton,Ks.
The local newspaper here[The Wichita Eagle] carried a comment/editorial comment on its Editorial page this date, and the credit was give to its origin at the Garden City Telegraph (3/26/2012).
"Towns should join efforts to maintain train service"
Deteriorating track conditions that have forced Amtrak to slow its trains through parts of western Kansas have been cited as a possible reason for the move. Burlington Northern Santa Fe owns the track.."
FTA:"...City officials in Garden City — in addition to Hutchinson and Dodge City, Lamar and La Junta, Colo., and Raton, N.M. — have passed resolutions in support of Amtrak's rail service through their respective communities..."
Sam,
As important as the economic and political arguments may be, I'm one of those who believe that the route's historic and scenic value is more than adequate justification for keeping line open.
Dave
davews Sam, As important as the economic and political arguments may be, I'm one of those who believe that the route's historic and scenic value is more than adequate justification for keeping line open. Dave
Dave:
I could not agree more with you. From any number of perspectives and reasons. But unfortunately, in the current political climate, the strongest argument would appear to be the economic one. Economics, are a more easily arguable politically.And that position from the political and business standpoint can be justified by those parties..
The route over Raton Pass was originally picked when there were no other really viable faster routes, and was certainly a saleable one for its scenic qualities and operational aspects (diesels were assigned from origin to destination). Now there are viable alternatives for BNSF on its Transcon Route, and it would end the single purposed routing, and the attendant headaches ( passenger train only, shorter freight trains with their power requirements), all kinds of MOW issues and those expenses, and so on.)
Maybe Raton's future lies with some sort of tourist use(?) scenic line, dinner train, sightseeing; a rail-banking option ( ie; Tennessee Pass?) Commuter transit link? Apparently, the 'Fat Lady' is warming up in Ft. Worth; so who knows what will happen on the Raton stage?
All true. If only there was a critical mass of local interest to actively push for these alternatives. If only, if only. We'll see....
I'm also thinking of starting a thread about the potential for commuter service on UP's KC-Salina line. You seem to have a firm grasp on Kansas railroading. What do you think?
Just an odd question, Why did Santa Fe never move the trains when they opened up the route?
Thx IGN
Not an odd question; probably a bit beyond my expertise so my answer won't be definitive. After the merger, BNSF continued to run a modest flow of traffic from Newton to LaJunta to Pueblo as well as from LaJunta junction southwest to Trinidad and Raton. The LaJ-Raton traffic was, I believe, mostly coal from NE New Mexico mines and some military traffic. Both sources dried up so BNSF stopped routing trains over the line since they had better alternate routes. Maintenance shrunk to whatever minimum level would still allow Amtrak #3 and #4 to crawl along the line. There's still local traffic Newton-Pueblo, but nothing like last summer's detours off the flooded northern divisions. They no longer own the line and have apparently offered to allow #3 and #4 onto the main line through Amarillo, but Amtrak is stalling.
davews Sam, All true. If only there was a critical mass of local interest to actively push for these alternatives. If only, if only. We'll see.... I'm also thinking of starting a thread about the potential for commuter service on UP's KC-Salina line. You seem to have a firm grasp on Kansas railroading. What do you think?
I appreciate the comment, but my 'expertise' is just the observations of an interested railfan. Having moved into Southeatern Kansas in 2001 and then moving out to Southcentral Kansas about 4 years ago, and landing between Wellington and Mulvane Kansas an area adjacent to a portion of the BNSF Transcon.
The major passenger interest in this area was the extension of the current Heartland Flyer north form OKC to points in Kansas; where it could interchange passengers with the SW Chief. That main touch point was to have been originally, at Newton Ks north of Wichita.
Then there were discussions of a further, and more ambitious extension to Topeka, and possibly to KCKs. But Gov. Brownback, and his Administration have pushed that matter to a status that has pretty, much made it a non-issue at this point.
The SWChief and its problems with BNSF have just been a further side show to Rails in Kansas situation. The LaJunta sub from Newton west to Hutchinson and then Southwest towards Garden City and Dodge City and then into Southeastern Colorado has been plagued by slow orders and track problems, BNSF maintains the ROW while AMTRAK pays them fees for MOW work and maintenance of that trackage. Pretty obvious that BNSF wants the SWChief to move somewhere else, BUT where, they are not really saying. They(BNSF) are making the current route almost untentanable for AMTRAK. With slow orders, and speeds something less than 50mph, night-time passage the SWChief is almost reduced to a milk stop local service.
I had mentioned a possible group of uses for the Raton Pass portion of the SWChief's route, One of which was a number of private operations. Maybe Privatization for the route (or part of the route would be an alternative?
Anyway while looking for some information on the NWU Hagestad Sandhouse Gang, I found and read an interesting PDF of a presentation by ED Ellis of Iowa Pacific for that group that might be of interest here, as an alternative discussion of how to handle the problems with the SWChief and its problematic services(?)
Here is the link: http://www.transportation.northwestern.edu/docs/2012/Iowa%20Pacific%20Sandhouse%20Gang%20presentation.pdf
As an additional bit of information: [ There are two possible routes south out of the Newton Area to bring the SWCHief south of Newton Kansas. UPRR OKT sub (nee RI RR) or the leg south of the BNSF south Through Wichita and Wellington, Ks on to Amarillo and into NM and west.] just about any one's guess what is going to happen with the SW Chief.
Thanks for the excellent Iowa Pacific link; very thought-provoking. For the short term, I'll continue to live in apprehension that the SW Chief will soon be taken off its current route. I'm one of the volunteers who host the Dodge City waiting room and I board 3 and 4 whenever the opportunity presents. And you're right: the ride between here and Trinidad has become less and less of a joy over the last few years.
That is a facinating link. I didn't know Iowa Pacific had actually gotten a passenger train up and running. Looking at the pricing, it looks reasonably competitive as well.
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