Bucyrus Did you read the link? This is not my idea. I don't think the FRA is just making a joke.
Did you read the link? This is not my idea. I don't think the FRA is just making a joke.
No, they just made a study, Agencies like to do that.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
I can already lift the pin from a relatively safe location. I use a device called a "cut lever." It's located on the corner of the car, meaning I don't have to go "in between" to get to it.
If it weren't for the need to be able to get to the anglecock from both sides of the car, it wouldn't be that hard to simply route the plumbing to the edge of the car, like the front end of our F's. As it is, a far simpler method might be to use a rod run to both sides of the car. The fire service uses such a linkage to operate the valves on fire apparatus. It would be fully compatible with existing installations.
Any time you throw electronics into the mix, you're adding to the probability of a failure.
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zugmann Bucyrus: Did you read the link? This is not my idea. I don't think the FRA is just making a joke. No, they just made a study, Agencies like to do that.
Bucyrus: Did you read the link? This is not my idea. I don't think the FRA is just making a joke.
Call it a study or whatever. But I would not conclude that the only point is to make a study, if that is what you mean. It shows that the FRA believes having personnel directly engaged in coupling and uncoupling poses a hazard, and they would like to eliminate that hazard. I think they have technical problems with that tri-coupler design, but the basic concept is certainly executable.
Here is another link with more information about the automatic components in detail. They are going to test this in a prototype called the Advanced Concept Train. I am not sure where it stands presently, but it looks like it is quite a bit more than just a study:
http://www.fra.dot.gov/Pages/2185.shtml#ACT
I once had an idea to develop an automatic air coupler that could be added to the knuckle coupler. I had a patent search done, and found that the idea has been patented every which way going all the way back to about 1905. But, as a practical matter of actually applying it, its time had never arrived.
The idea is doable, but the tricky part is maintaining a reliable air seal with all of the opposing actions between couplers. I also had a secondary feature in the coupler for a second connecting port and a second trainline.
That second trainline could be charged to simultaneously bleed all the cars for switching. I have never seen anybody propose that specific feature. I think the FRA needs to include that in their remote coupling / uncoupling scheme. Although, maybe that function is something that could be incorporated into ECP brakes. I have a ponderous document on ECP brakes that I will have to review to see if they could automatically bleed the brakes on a train by redirecting the trainline air to bleeder cylinders.
And we have had powered switches for 100 years. Many railroaders have messed up their backs, and many trains have hit the dirt because of improperly latched manual switches. So why aren't all switches powered?
I wonder what the rea$on could be...
PS. Of course the FRA is big on safety - that is what they do. But I still don't believe that even they think that every "study" they do is going to become reality. But they have to make the effort... your (And my) tax dollars at work, I guess.
Yes, maybe you would have to have a level on each of the cars that would decide if it was okay to bleed all the cars at once. None of this stuff is going to happen tomorrow. And it will not happen everywhere when it starts to happen. But there is nothing far fetched about the technology. The issue is converting all the cars and locomotives. This can only be done incrementally, so any new equipment has to be compatible with the current rolling stock. And even then, with the ability to convert incrementally, these kind of improvements need to be on a lot of cars before they have much of an effect on improving anything. Even ECP brakes face this monumental problem. I don’t see ECP brakes being universal for a long, long time, if ever.
I read the link, I know it's not your idea, I get that. What I dont get is the need to spend a fortune on something like this. We have automatic couplers that can be safely operated without your body being in the foul. Coupling airhoses is done the way it's been done for decades. Wait for the movement to stop, get 3-Step Protection, go in between and do your thing and get out.
I dont care what the Feds think, from my point of view(being someone who does this for a living and not sitting in an office dreaming up ways to reinvent the wheel) it's a waste of money. I would much rather see my company spend that money on eliminating dark territory and improving track conditions, instead of spending money on something that may get eliminate me.
There is a disclaimer at the bottom of the FRA pdf in the link that Bucyrus provided. Just because there is a study doesn't necessarily mean anything will come of it.
Many years ago in Trains, there was a NTSB recommendation following an accident between a train and a vehicle. (I think it may have been a school bus, but don't remember for sure.) The gist of the recommendation was to strip the fronts of engines of couplers, hoses, etc because they contributed to the severity of the accident. At least that was how Trains' interpreted them. Of course that has never happened, engines still have all those accoutrements.
Just because something looks good on paper doesn't mean it works or is practical in the real world.
Jeff
jeffhergert There is a disclaimer at the bottom of the FRA pdf in the link that Bucyrus provided. Just because there is a study doesn't necessarily mean anything will come of it. Many years ago in Trains, there was a NTSB recommendation following an accident between a train and a vehicle. (I think it may have been a school bus, but don't remember for sure.) The gist of the recommendation was to strip the fronts of engines of couplers, hoses, etc because they contributed to the severity of the accident. At least that was how Trains' interpreted them. Of course that has never happened, engines still have all those accoutrements. Just because something looks good on paper doesn't mean it works or is practical in the real world. Jeff
Amen! We (labor) can attest to that, we deal with that sort of thing everyday.
I understand how you feel about this. I would not want these genius ninny-nannies sitting offices and writing new rules to prevent me from getting stress from pulling pins. I am only pointing it out to show that there is a downside to safety if bureaucrats decide that your whole job is unsafe. And I agree that this remote uncoupling may never come to fruition. Not everything does. It may just represent the misguided line of thinking that believes that every little danger or stress needs to be eliminated. However, I do not see that disclaimer as meaning anything about whether the proposal is serious or not.
As far as threatening jobs, I think the saving grace will be the devil in the details of the tri-coupler, and remote control pin lifter and anglecock. All of those details will have to be twice as robust in order to survive in full working conditions. That will probably quadruple the price. They have started out by testing the tri-coupler by pulling slowly in the yard.
That air connection in the tri-coupler is going to be really problematic. When air hoses are coupled, the glad hands hold the seals slightly compressed with the two glad hands acting as one solid unit. With the tri-coupler, seals are compressed together directly across the line of the couplers. As the coupler slack runs in and out, the closing pressure on the sealing blocks increases and decreases as the couplers slide in relation to the spring loaded sealing blocks.
This has to work without the slightest bit of binding with dirt, rust, ice, and snow. If one of these units binds when the slack runs in, the force will destroy the mounting. It may dump the trainline when that happens, or it may wait until the slack runs back out before it dumps the air. Likewise, if the unit binds when the slack runs out, it will pull the air connection open and dump the air.
The FRA report should not be dismissed out of hand just because it appears impractical. I would view it similarly to the notes at the beginning of a brainstorming session, which will show a lot of impractical ideas thrown out in order to generate some serious thought on the topic. Also remember that many of the safety appliances that railroaders often take for granted were mandated by Federal law, with more than a little bit of a push by the Brotherhoods.
Totally automatic couplers has been a dream probably for over a hundred years now. And in fact is a reality for transit or subway cars where slack action is not a major factor, train sets are usually kept together, and each car is totally electrified. But doing the same for larger commuter and other passenger cars as well as for totally assorted frieght equipment is a totally different story with differet climates or conditions in which they must operate. The need to have a power source from one end of each car to the other as well as from one end of the train to the other is one of the first major hurdles; each car has to be wired exactly the same from draft to draft as every other car on tracks; then the slack action at the coupler has to be dealt with, etc. So, the concept lives, but its applications is long in the future.
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Stress from pulling pins? Really? You're gonna have to do better than that, I'm still not buying it.
Georgia Railroader Stress from pulling pins? Really? You're gonna have to do better than that, I'm still not buying it.
Ever do it? Ever have the person moving the cars be a half or more mile away and not able to see you step to a car to lift the lever or to see you step away? Once, twice, 60 times an hour? In the dark or rain or snow? With loose ballast underfoot that could cause you to slide or fall...into the train? Thinking about that and doing that can be a stress factor, worried that all will be ok and safe and you will be able to make or undo this hitch and the next, and the next? Some don't care, or at least not seem to, others, it is on thier minds. If it is on their minds, there is stress.
A few of my family actually worked for the RR and I know of at least one killed getting caught between two cars so I can understand the concern working in that environment...
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henry6 Georgia Railroader: Stress from pulling pins? Really? You're gonna have to do better than that, I'm still not buying it. Ever do it? Ever have the person moving the cars be a half or more mile away and not able to see you step to a car to lift the lever or to see you step away? Once, twice, 60 times an hour? In the dark or rain or snow? With loose ballast underfoot that could cause you to slide or fall...into the train? Thinking about that and doing that can be a stress factor, worried that all will be ok and safe and you will be able to make or undo this hitch and the next, and the next? Some don't care, or at least not seem to, others, it is on thier minds. If it is on their minds, there is stress.
Georgia Railroader: Stress from pulling pins? Really? You're gonna have to do better than that, I'm still not buying it.
I do it everyday, do you? There are far more dangerous parts to this job than standing next to a car and pulling a pin. Ask the 300+ people on my district what worries them the most about this job, I'll bet pulling pins wont be on the top 10 list.
Georgia Railroader,
I am not sure whom you are directing your comment to, but I made the comment about stress from pulling pins based on this:
In the FRA link:
http://www.fra.dot.gov/downloads/research/rr0829.pdf
Page 2, paragraph 3, it says this:
“When uncoupling, individuals have to position themselves between two cars, grab the cut lever and exert a force to lift the coupler’s lock to allow release of the car’s mechanical couplers. In this scenario, the individual is exposed to both physical stress and contact type injuries.”
The way I would look at it is that stress is part of the work. But there are so-called experts these days that regard stress as something that must be eliminated, so they pass laws, make rules, purport to measure stress, and file lawsuits against causes of stress. Stress is almost like a made-up disease.
Bucyrus Georgia Railroader: Stress from pulling pins? Really? You're gonna have to do better than that, I'm still not buying it. Georgia Railroader, I am not sure whom you are directing your comment to, but I made the comment about stress from pulling pins based on this: In the FRA link: http://www.fra.dot.gov/downloads/research/rr0829.pdf Page 2, paragraph 3, it says this: “When uncoupling, individuals have to position themselves between two cars, grab the cut lever and exert a force to lift the coupler’s lock to allow release of the car’s mechanical couplers. In this scenario, the individual is exposed to both physical stress and contact type injuries.” The way I would look at it is that stress is part of the work. But there are so-called experts these days that regard stress as something that must be eliminated, so they pass laws, make rules, purport to measure stress, and file lawsuits against causes of stress. Stress is almost like a made-up disease.
Didn't mean to word it that way, wasn't directing it at you. That part where is says " When uncoupling, individuals have to position themselves between two cars" that got me. Nobody stands between two cars when there is any movement at all unless they have a death wish. I guess they have to exaggerate to sell their point.
Georgia RailroaderI guess they have to exaggerate to sell their point.
You have to wonder if they've ever lifted a cut lever themselves.
tree68 Georgia Railroader: I guess they have to exaggerate to sell their point. Methinks it's that whole Ivory Tower thing... You have to wonder if they've ever lifted a cut lever themselves.
Georgia Railroader: I guess they have to exaggerate to sell their point.
Methinks it's that whole Ivory Tower thing...
I highly doubt it. It seems like most of this stuff is created by those who have never railroaded before.
But they had a trainset as a kid...
Can you explain a brakestick please?
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A Brake Stick is a 'stick' with a 'hook' on the end that permits the brakeman to apply and release hand brakes without the necessity of mounting the car and climbing the car ladder to reach the hand brake. Some, as pictured, can also be used to open a knuckle without being in the foul between cars.
Murphy Siding Can you explain a brakestick please?
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I have done it, but not professionally. And I know there are some who are more adept at doing any job than others and some who will worry too muchj. Some are very cavellier, others very careful, both which could be reactions to stress. I am not calling anyone out nor disrespecting anyone's job or ability. Stress is a factor in every job by degrees and handled differently by each person. Fatigue is a big stress factor which unions and management and safety experts are always working on, for instance. But I 've spoken to labor who says they rather be out and get back home at the expense of sleep because of family and familiarity of their home bed. I've spoken with safety experts who claim a good 8 hour sleep before returning reduces stress. So define stress, define reactions to stress, and define how to deal with stress. Each response will be different.
BaltACD A Brake Stick is a 'stick' with a 'hook' on the end that permits the brakeman to apply and release hand brakes without the necessity of mounting the car and climbing the car ladder to reach the hand brake. Some, as pictured, can also be used to open a knuckle without being in the foul between cars. Murphy Siding: Can you explain a brakestick please?
Murphy Siding: Can you explain a brakestick please?
Some of our conductors have them. For those that don't they've placed them in locked holders at locations where trains may have to be tied down.
The first time I saw a North Platte conductor get off the train with one tied to his back pack all I could think was, "Oh no! They are arming the conductors."
That thing looks pretty heavy to be carrying around all day. Maybe I could make my first million by making a lightweight titinium or carbon fiber brake stick. Is there any particular reason that the brake whell is up so high to start with?
Sounds silly, but to keep them out of the way.
And as a design consideration, they are often mounted in a straight line manner with the bell crank and other brake hardware, the air brake piston and the compound lever system, which often requires them to be close to the center of the car.
You could mount them low and out towards the edge, but that would require additional levers, pulleys and cranks, and the more hardware you have, the most opportunities there are for things to break.
Some cars, like coil cars, require the wheel to be near the edge, because of the manner in which the covers fit and the way they are loaded and unloaded.
The car in the photo looks like a covered hopper, so the placement of the brake wheel is only based on the cheapest and easiest manner possible to build the car.
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zugmann But they had a trainset as a kid...
LOL Yep.
Murphy Siding That thing looks pretty heavy to be carrying around all day. Maybe I could make my first million by making a lightweight titinium or carbon fiber brake stick. Is there any particular reason that the brake whell is up so high to start with?
The ones we have are like the ones in the link from Zug, we use the longer "Standard'' model. They weigh around 5lbs, so yea toting one of these around for 12 hours is a pain but I would much rather do that than to climb up and down cars all day. We have customers who use trackmobiles to move cars around once we spot them up and leave. They have had so many cars roll out of tracks and cause sideswipes that their bosses now require 100% handbrakes. So when we return the next day we have to knock off every brake in each track before moving the cut. Climbing up a car doesn't seem that bad, but after you do it 50 or more times in 100 degree heat along with walking your butt off on rocks all day, that stick is a lifesaver. Not to mention it saves banged up knees and elbows and screwed up shoulders from slipping off a wet car!
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