timz henry6: All clocks and watches were set to the second at noon EST everyday. They weren't, of course.
henry6: All clocks and watches were set to the second at noon EST everyday.
They were as a matter of course. Anyone involved in the movement of trains had to have a quailified time piece and it had to be set to the second at noon in accordance with the Rules of The Operating Department. When one could not set their watch by the noon (actually the count down started at 11:57AM and ended at noon straight, Eastern Standard Time) time setting procedure, he was to compare his timepiece with one that was so set and make it conform.
The Standard Code along with the Rules of the Operating Department of each railroad were taken seriously and adhered to. Whatever one did, someone elses job or performance depended upon as did the total operation and safety of all. It was taken seriously and you had to take a test on these rules to enter service and were continuously refreshed, updated, and tested on them to stay in service. Good enough wasn't good enough, you could't have a lapse in judgement, if you did, it would soon catch up with you; if not suspension of fireing, then in injury or death, if not to you then to another and you would be held accountable for any and all results.
I have a hard time understanding that so many can not understand how seriously rules, regulations and high standards were established and taken seriously and practiced without question. It was not a game, it is not a game, it is a performance of a job and a duty to do it safely and correctly. Todays rules and regulations are different but not less important, either. I don't understand the constant scoffing at such rules and regulations and the need for them and the need for them to be adhered to. Yes, there are times they are usless or invalid or incapapble of being applied and have to be suspeneded or side stepped; but that has to be done with a concept of the rule(s)...the whys and wherefores...before it can be abridged. But they cannot be ignored or unrespected out of hand.
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
henry6 Anyone involved in the movement of trains had to have a quailified time piece and it had to be set to the second at noon in accordance with the Rules of The Operating Department.
timz henry6: Anyone involved in the movement of trains had to have a quailified time piece and it had to be set to the second at noon in accordance with the Rules of The Operating Department. Find that rule in the book.
henry6: Anyone involved in the movement of trains had to have a quailified time piece and it had to be set to the second at noon in accordance with the Rules of The Operating Department.
You find it because you don't want to believe me.
In the Trains sidebar that started this discussion. Hankey says DV Scotty's train passing Cameron weighed "a total of about 349 tons [including engine and tender]. Accelerating that mass to 106 mph is a pretty basic violation of Newtonian physics."
Which is a silly thing to say, of course. He twice says the 106 mph claim was "physically impossible"-- which could charitably be called sloppy writing. Far as I'm concerned no need to give his discussion much attention-- there may be a good point in there somewhere, but probably nothing new.
There never was any reason to believe the SFe claim, but proving it wrong isn't easy. Not enough evidence either way.
From the Rock Island Uniform Code of Operating Rules effective May 1, 1950
Rule 1.Standard time obtaiend from Washington, D. C., observatory will be transmitted to all points from designated offices at 11:00 A. M. Central Time, or 10:00 A. M. Mountain Time, daily.
Rule 2 concerns Watch Inspection. One paragraph reads: "When watches of employees subject to standard time rules are found at any time to be 30 seconds or more from standard time, they must be set to correct time." In other words, your watch could be as much as 29 seconds out from standard time--but you had better know how much and in which way.
Incidentally, stem-set watches were forbidded; only lever-set watches were allowed; when the lever was pulled out, the watch stopped running so that it was possible to set the watch exactly to the second, at which time the lever would be pushed back in. Even though it does not say so, another paragraph in Rule 2 covers the type of watch allowed: "Watches that have been examined and certified to by a designated inspector must be used by such officers and employes as are designated by such instructions. You can be sure that such an inspector had instructions as to the proper type of watch that could be used.
Rule 3 covers Time Comparison, stating that all employes subject to the time rules must compare their watches, if possible, with a standard clock before beginning their day's work; if such an employe has no access to a standard clock, he must compare his watch with that of an employe who has had such access. And, "When practicable conductors and engine foremen, and engineers will also compare time with each other and with trainmen, or yardmen, and firemen before commencing each day's work or trip." In other words, you had better know what time it is.
Granted, this rulebook became effective a few years after the fast run to Chicago, but it is entirely possible that such rules, or similar rules were in effect at the time of the run.
Johnny
Which of the six stipulations in Henry's statement are you refuting?
From the CRI&P August 1904 Operating Rules.
Rule 1. Standard Time obtained from Washington observatory will be telegraphed to all points from designated offices at Twelve (12) o'clock, noon (Central Time), or Eleven (11) o'clock, a.m. (Mountain Time).
Rule 2 covers watch inspection and proper forms certifying same. Omitted.
Rule 3. Watches of Conductors and Enginemen must be compared, before starting on each trip, with a clock designated as a Standard Clock. The time when watches are compared, with variation, must be restistered on a prescribed form.
a. Conductors and Enginemen who have not access to A standard Clock must compare watches daily with those of Conductors and Enginemen who have Standard Time.
b. Conductors and Enginemen who have not opportunity to compare their watches with those of Conductors and Enginemen who have Standard Time, will call for and receive time from the Train Dispatcher daily before commencing work.
c. After obtaining time, Conductors and Enginemen must compare time with each other before starting on each trip or commencing the daily work.
Note that the variation must be registered, but it dosen't say the watch must be corrected to the correct time. It also doesn't mention, as the 1950 rules do, anything about the allowed variance. I have a CB&Q 1900 rule book that reads much the same, except the time is transmitted to all points in the afternoon, 4pm Central/3pm Mountain.
While there is a time standard, that dosen't mean to say that every clock and watch on the railroad were all synchronized to the exact second. The rules didn't require this, that's not to say you couldn't reset your watch if a few seconds off. That wasn't required, but you were required to know how far off you were when going on duty. The operating rules took this into consideration when requireing inferior trains to clear trains that were superior by right, class or direction by 5 or 10 minutes before their leaving time.
Jeff
tmz must look these things up for himself...we all have given him sources and noted variations of era, railroad, etc. Why do people here ask questions or pose problems and then refute the answers when they think we're wrong?
Stations in Canada were often equipped with what is known as a "standard clock" The station operator or agent would compare it with the time signal, but that did not mean he would reset the clock. There was also a card with a moveable disk and the dial would be rotated to indicate how many seconds slow, or fast, the clock was. In theory, at least, railroad grade watches and clocks should normally stay within that 30 second window between servicing.
John
Well, once we get this timing issue nailed down, we can move on to Hankey’s thermodynamic argument. After working our way through the Newtonian physics, we'll be able to put this matter to rest once and for all.
I think it is all based on the theory 'If you shout a lie loud enough and long enough some people begin to think it's the truth'. Seems to work in politics from time to time.
henry6 tmz must look these things up for himself...we all have given him sources and noted variations of era, railroad, etc. Why do people here ask questions or pose problems and then refute the answers when they think we're wrong?
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
My college major was History, not one of the Sciences, and after completing Hankey's article, I observed that the Scott Special was publicized in a time where stretching the truth or inventing facts was tolerated much more than it is now. It may well have been expected by the public. Also keep in mind that the term "muckraker" was originally intended as a pejorative. Many of the "facts" of the Scott Special may not have been created out of thin air but the truth was probably stretched pretty badly in the process. As mentioned above, they can't be proved but they can't be disproved, either. Any speed claims from that run need to be taken with a grain of salt. At any rate, the Scott Special was an outstanding performance by the Santa Fe from both labor and management, and can be appreciated as such even if some of the claims can be discounted.
I think we will be sidetracked to discussion of the Gregorian calendar and the demise of the Wagner sleeping car first.
BaltACD I think it is all based on the theory 'If you shout a lie loud enough and long enough some people begin to think it's the truth'. Seems to work in politics from time to time. henry6: tmz must look these things up for himself...we all have given him sources and noted variations of era, railroad, etc. Why do people here ask questions or pose problems and then refute the answers when they think we're wrong?
henry6: tmz must look these things up for himself...we all have given him sources and noted variations of era, railroad, etc. Why do people here ask questions or pose problems and then refute the answers when they think we're wrong?
Which is based on theory? The actual printed, taught, enforeced rules and rule books or peopl's refutation of the given answers they requested?
CSSHEGEWISCH My college major was History, not one of the Sciences, and after completing Hankey's article, I observed that the Scott Special was publicized in a time where stretching the truth or inventing facts was tolerated much more than it is now. It may well have been expected by the public. Also keep in mind that the term "muckraker" was originally intended as a pejorative. Many of the "facts" of the Scott Special may not have been created out of thin air but the truth was probably stretched pretty badly in the process. As mentioned above, they can't be proved but they can't be disproved, either. Any speed claims from that run need to be taken with a grain of salt. At any rate, the Scott Special was an outstanding performance by the Santa Fe from both labor and management, and can be appreciated as such even if some of the claims can be discounted.
So true, Paul. Scotty may have paid Sante Fe to run the train but the PR department har more to do with the run than the operating department in cewrtain respects. There actually was no mass advertsing medium or media at the time, no coast to coast radio, tv, internet, no USA Today and few magazines which could be timely in circulation and with a large enough literate audience. Even the likes of Playboy would have failed for lack of photograpic reproduction. So, in order to get attention, a major stunt had to be invented which would be deemed newsworthy enough for the rags to pass onto their readers, and these were pretty much parochial. After the news release, was the reporters embellishment often fed by his own search for noteriety and money or by the PR agents pushing him.
Bucyrus timz: henry6: All clocks and watches were set to the second at noon EST everyday. They weren't, of course. Which of the six stipulations in Henry's statement are you refuting?
timz: henry6: All clocks and watches were set to the second at noon EST everyday. They weren't, of course.
We've all seen pics of those SFe mercury-pendulum standard clocks with the signs "This Clock Is _ Seconds Slow/Fast". Obvious question: how far off were they allowed to be? Don't see any rule about that in my SFe books (which only go back to 1953).
BucyrusWell, once we get this timing issue nailed down...
Bucyrus...we can move on to Hankey’s thermodynamic argument.
BucyrusAfter working our way through the Newtonian physics, we'll be able to put this matter to rest once and for all.
refutation
henry6 BaltACD: I think it is all based on the theory 'If you shout a lie loud enough and long enough some people begin to think it's the truth'. Seems to work in politics from time to time. henry6: tmz must look these things up for himself...we all have given him sources and noted variations of era, railroad, etc. Why do people here ask questions or pose problems and then refute the answers when they think we're wrong? Which is based on theory? The actual printed, taught, enforeced rules and rule books or peopl's refutation of the given answers they requested?
BaltACD: I think it is all based on the theory 'If you shout a lie loud enough and long enough some people begin to think it's the truth'. Seems to work in politics from time to time. henry6: tmz must look these things up for himself...we all have given him sources and noted variations of era, railroad, etc. Why do people here ask questions or pose problems and then refute the answers when they think we're wrong?
timz Bucyrus: ...we can move on to Hankey’s thermodynamic argument. As I recall there was no thermodynamics in his discussion. Bucyrus: After working our way through the Newtonian physics, we'll be able to put this matter to rest once and for all. He mentioned the term, but don't think any actual physics appeared in his discussion either. Even if it did, no way we can put any matter to rest, for all or for part.
Bucyrus:
...we can move on to Hankey’s thermodynamic argument.
Bucyrus: After working our way through the Newtonian physics, we'll be able to put this matter to rest once and for all.
Mr. Hankey claimed that the speed record was impossible because it would be a “pretty basic violation of Newtonian physics.” Surely we have some math wizards here who can confirm or deny Mr. Hankey’s claim. If it is a “pretty basic violation,” as Mr. Hankey says, it ought to be pretty easy to run the numbers. Why do you say there is no way we can put the matter to rest?
BucyrusMr. Hankey claimed that the speed record was impossible because it would be a “pretty basic violation of Newtonian physics.” Surely we have some math wizards here who can confirm or deny Mr. Hankey’s claim.
BucyrusIf it is a “pretty basic violation,” as Mr. Hankey says, it ought to be pretty easy to run the numbers. Why do you say there is no way we can put the matter to rest?
In his discussion, do you see any numbers to "run", easily or hardly?
(Neither does anyone else.)
timz,
So, if I understand you, Mr. Hankey has not refuted, disproved, or debunked the AT&SF 106.1 mph speed claim by the analytical use of science, mathematics, mechanical engineering, or thermodynamics.
I'd like to stand with that proposition. Mr Hankey relies (ref above in this thread) on conversation with BillWithun, who is preparing a book for publication. That book has thedata BW needed to analyse two earlier claims (1893 & 1905). I thinkHankey and Withun extrapolate to the Scott train.As far as physics, if the engine will produce enough heat energy thenthe train will accelerate until the drag forces balance that energy.So Newton won't limit the speed. The abilities of the locomotive arethe only thing that will limit the speed, and that needs to bemeasured.My suggestion would be to suspend this discussion until that data areavailable.
jpwoodruff The abilities of the locomotive arethe only thing that will limit the speed, and that needs to bemeasured.My suggestion would be to suspend this discussion until that data areavailable.
The abilities of the locomotive arethe only thing that will limit the speed, and that needs to bemeasured.My suggestion would be to suspend this discussion until that data areavailable.
I do not see any reason to suspend this discussion until such time that Mr. Hankey can prove his debunking. By definition of debunk, he has already claimed to have proven it. This discussion is not to prove the AT&SF claim true. It is only to prove that Mr. Hankey has not proven it to be false. If anything should be suspended (or retracted), I think it should be Mr. Hankey’s assertion that he has debunked the AT&SF claim. There is no evidence that he has.
jpwoodruff .My suggestion would be to suspend this discussion until that data areavailable.
.My suggestion would be to suspend this discussion until that data areavailable.
And what fun would that be?....
BucyrusI do not see any reason to suspend this discussion until such time that Mr. Hankey can prove his debunking.
Stand by boys, ol' Firelock's gonna throw some gasoline on the fire! In 1900 the Plant System (later acquired by the Atlantic Coast Line) was bidding against the Seaboard for a mail contract. Eight cars of mail were divided between the two roads at Savannah, the first to get their four cars to Jacksonville Florida would get the contract. Plant Systems #111, a 4-6-0, took over the Plant train at Fleming, Ga., and from Jesup to Jacksonville by way of Waycross, 115.9 miles, did the run in 90 minutes or at 77.3 mph. Between Screven and Satilla the time was 2 minutes and 30 seconds or 120 mph.
Plant System never claimed a speed record though. The mail contract was good enough.
I think "Death Valley" Scotty's generating a lot more controversy than he deserves. Cool character though!
Timing is everything. What TRAINS was trying to do with this issue is deal with the great legends and stories from railroading through the times, back to a time when railroading was glitz, glamour, and romance of the rails ruled. Can you believe these stories? Well, do you want to? Railroading....and life...was not a binery or digital world of absolute bits and bytes but what a colorful and imaginary concoction of words and mind images created by words and deeds. It was as much fun as it was serious, but never dour. It was, well, a different time. As for the stories being true or not...read them again in Trains, search through history books and old magazines for the same stories as told in a different era...then decide for yourself what you want to believe and enjoy.
henry6 Timing is everything. What TRAINS was trying to do with this issue is deal with the great legends and stories from railroading through the times, back to a time when railroading was glitz, glamour, and romance of the rails ruled. Can you believe these stories? Well, do you want to? Railroading....and life...was not a binery or digital world of absolute bits and bytes but what a colorful and imaginary concoction of words and mind images created by words and deeds. It was as much fun as it was serious, but never dour. It was, well, a different time. As for the stories being true or not...read them again in Trains, search through history books and old magazines for the same stories as told in a different era...then decide for yourself what you want to believe and enjoy.
I couldn't have said it better myself. Well done sir!
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