My wife just reported there was a "collision" between two trains at 500East, 600 North in Porter County. This is Northeast of Valparaiso. I heard the CN dispatcher discuss with crew and indicated there was a "big mess".
The CN and CSX lines are a few miles apart, but reportedly there is a hazmat spill with burning cars and evacuations.
This is an area which I normally bike during 3 seasons. Could it be an ethanol train?Ed
(Somehow duplicated in the editing process.)
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
Here's a story from the Trib. Doesn't appear to be ethanol, but the picture shows only two of the three trains involved. Looks like the shot was taken from an overpass with a chain-link fence, if that helps you narrow down the location, Ed.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-fire-chemical-spill-after-trains-collide-in-nw-indiana-20120106,0,3134190.story
Eolafan Jim has just posted a different link in a separate post.
Edit: Jim's link has a link to a skycam report...it does look like the third train is all tanks, and could well be ethanol, but the tank cars in the shot (on a large curve) appear to be upright and on the rails.
The tanks are reportedly ethanol cars, but empty.
The streets you mentioned appear to intersect right by where the tracks go. I can see a curve near there. This isn't too far from Suman, where CSX had another big wreck not all that long ago. One report says that the control point was somehow involved, in that one of the trains was crossing over.
Carl:I know exactly where this is and would have travelled across the bridge tonight had this not occurred. I ride my bike over the bridge 5x a week in spring, summer and fall. This is a very scenic and interesting location in NW Indiana for viewing trains as the CSX works thru Suman Valley.
Suman is the crossover about 2 miles west where an intermodal derailed in June, 2010 and a workman was killed the following day. It took nearly 5 months to have the tracks back to normal.
This is going to be a major inconvenience for CSX. The line sees about 50-60 trains daily including all their hot Chicago-East Coast UPS trains. Dont know where everything will go, but CSX is tying trains down. I was working at home in my office and didnt have the scanner on until about 230 and missed the action. My wife actually alerted me to it as she was returning home from work.
It will be interesting to see what actually happened. Cant believe I wasnt listening in. The radio reception is very good for me and no doubt I would have heard about the accident as it occured.
Ed
My sister called me from North Carolina a little more than an hour ago, thinking she was telling me some news...it sure travels fast! It's definitely one of the big stories on Channel 5 tonight.
I couldn't recall when the other wreck had been...guess it was just one train (I was wondering whether more than one was involved there, too).
From what I heard on the news, a CSX freight train rear-ended another freight train, injuring the crew and derailing tanker cars, which smashed into a THIRD train on an adjacent track.
There's a news article for ya to read up
Here's an article from the Chicago Tribune
Tracking down this incident on several Chi land media sites there seems to be on interesting statement. The second train rear ended the first train when the first train had to make an emergeycy stop and the second train didn't have room to stop, That statement opens a whole can of worms ot thoughts about speed and spacing and train sizes. Third train, going in the opposite direction just got in the way apparently.
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Restricted speed is the only thing you can do when you have a train in the same block as you. This means what ever it takes to get stopped within half of the range of vision. I think restricted speed on CSX is up to 15 mph. This does not mean they should have been going that speed. In that situation, they should have had it down to under 7 or 8 mph, and that's fast if it's down hill, and I know that area does have a nice size hill. I'm just going by reports by the news, which is always wrong anyway.lol The end result will be crew error. Signal indication is how we stay alive out there...someone messed up.
Nothing will excuse the crew of the following train from operating at a speed at which they could stop short (within half the range of vision, according to the definition for restricted speed). And if they were following the other train that closely, they would have passed a red signal, which requires them to be proceeding at restricted speed. Weather was not a factor.
The reports I've had, from reputable sources, say that all three trains were westbound. I'm afraid that the crew of the following train is going to be the one facing scrutiny here. Regardless of what caused the train ahead of it to stop, they were required to stop short. Weather wasn't a factor (you couldn't ask for better weather in January around here!).Of course, only a thorough investigation (and NTSB is on the scene) will determine exactly what happened. But it is possible for experienced railroaders to come to a likely conclusion, given the facts.
Some of the locomotives involved were GE-built UP locomotives (those units, on the tank train, should not have been involved in the pileup). The manifest had two CSXT units and one IC unit (those units probably sustained the most damage).
The CSX Intermodal was Q161, the manifest was Q395, and the Ethanol empty was K363.
Quote CShaveRR: "if a UP train has an undesired emergency application, the engineer must immediately say, "Emergency! Emergency! Emergency!" over the radio". Carl please correct me if I'm wrong but shouldn't the engineer also add in the milepost and location to the original radio call continued by, or a second radio call, for the type of emergency (if known) and, if necessary, other tracks that are fouled / injuries?
It's interesting to hear that two accidents have happened at virtually the same location about a year and half apart. Maybe it's just a coicidence. Then again, maybe it's a bad spot to have a control point / crosover(s). Is Suman a newer control point? Or, has it been there for a long time? Have there been any other incidents at this location before the most recent two? I'm sure that the NTSB will check the physical plant and a history of any other incidents in the area as part of their investigation into the crash.
The three "Emergency!" announcements are basically to clear the airwaves. A follow-up call would tell people who was in emergency, and where. Cause might not be known without an inspection.
Not sure what was at Suman prior to the double-tracking of the old B&O in the late 1990s; I suspect the current incarnation of the plant dates from then.
The NTSB will be looking into a lot of things in that area, for sure!
Edit: Looking at a different piece of aerial footage, I see that I might be in error about the order of the two trains: the stacker may have run into the ethanol empties. Regardless, the crew of the trailing train has to bear some responsibility here. I realize that I'm painting a pretty broad picture here, and things will have to be corroborated by details that an investigation will uncover, such as locomotive event recorders, cab video cameras (if they have 'em), and recordings of radio transmissions leading up to the incident.
Here is what I think happened, based on aerial footage and my understanding of operations of the area. I listen in almost daily on the scanner and as mentioned, this is my area for cycling during the spring - fall time. I watch a number of trains during my biking.
My guess:
WB ethanol train was stopped just short of the road crossing at CR 400 E. This is a common spot to halt WBs that will be going thru Xovers at Suman. WB ethanol train was on the track 2, the common EB track. Train Q395 is a Williard - Kirk Yard manifest with usually a long crew out of Williard. It was following on track 2.
Q161 was proceeding West on Track 1. Thus, it was running around both trains. My guess is that both K383 and Q395 were diverted to track 2 either at Webster or Wellsboro. My guess is after Q161 cleared Suman, then both trains would follow on T1. About this time of day there is a parade of EB intermodals that begin moving. So after the K383 and Q395 cleared, the track 2 would be cleared for EBs. Often Q395 takes considerable time getting clearance into Kirk.
So, in my theory, the Q395 ran into K383 right under the bridge causing the derailment with Q161 running at track speed (usually 60mph), causing the big pile up,.
My buddy has access to the site and he will be by to pick me up in 10 minutes. Should be interestign site.
Last night we went to Michigan City and back for son's basketball game. The Hulcher equipment was staged on US 6 reading to move in when we went at 6pm. By 1030 they were working. We were about a mile away and it was quite an strange site with lights, smoke, haze and activity.
More later.
I'll be waiting to hear about what actually happens/happened, Ed--I'll accept that you have a better knowledge of how things are normally run there.
The first picture I linked, to, however, shows covered hoppers lying on their side (suggestive of being knocked over) and stack cars accordioned (suggestive of a hard stop or compression after an impact), which sounds like the opposite of what you're saying. However, I feel like I should be ready to give up my Junior Investigator's badge.
Just returned from the site. Unfortunately we are heading to Indy, so I dont have time to give much info now.
Probably took 150 photos. I have NEVER SEEN ANYTHING LIKE this. The locomotives are completely burned out.
Approx. Lat./ Long. coords. of the "County Road 600" (E 600 North) bridge over CSX just east of the intersection of the N 500 E road per ACME Mapper 2.0: N 41.51969 W 86.96922
N 400 E road grade crossing mentioned by Ed/ MP 173 above: N 41.53133 W 86.98453
CP Suman crossovers/ interlocking, about 0.1 mile northwest of the Old Suman RD. grade crossing: N 41.54437 W 87.00163
I'll bet that is an interesting area to ride a bike around ! (they're a lot easier to get 'off-road' to park and look when space is limited, too !)
Looking forward to your 'on-the-scene' report, Ed !
Carl, good job with the analysis and the careful disclaimers, too !
- Paul North.
Just returned from Indianapolis...long day. Paul, thanks for the coordinates for the key locations. It is a very interesting railroading area and a great place for a cycling workout with considerable hills (for NW Indiana). As mentioned before several times, the bridge is one I cross during my ride and I have always enjoyed the CSX activity thru the area.
Several observations:
1. Hulcher sure seems to know what they are doing. There was considerable work done overnight and during the 90 minutes or so I was there a number of containers and cars were moved. It would be interesting to see an article in Trains about such cleanup crews. Cranemaster was also there. There was a rumor floating around about the hourly rate Hulcher bills, and it was huge. When we left I counted the number of semis with lowboy trailers...there were 20 just on one road, plus numerous pickup trucks.
2. There were a number of "officials" on site. Obviously the CSX were there in droves. Also NTSB, FRA, and other rail industry personnel. Just about every possible local enforcement agency had someone there. This was a big event and people used their credentials to access the site. Small community law enforcement officials were there from 30 miles away. Everyone seemed to have a camera and there were thousands of photos taken. The bridge had a chain link fence installed a couple of years ago and someone had conveniently cut a hole in the fence to facilitate easy photography. It was a popular spot. Meanwhile down below, Hulcher put on quite a show.
3. Listening in on conversations was fascinating. I talked with a number of people from law enforcement (third responder on the scene), to FRA, NTSB, CSX, private contractors, medical personel (yes on site to view the carnage), etc. Everyone seemed to realize this was a once in a lifetime event, at least in our area, and people shared quite a bit of information freely.
4. There allegedly was quite a tug of war between the railroad and the NTSB around 2am regarding how the cleanup was to proceed, with CSX wanting their line opened quickly and NTSB wanting to preserve the scene. A compromise was rumored to be made by very high level officials and at that time the undamaged cars were moved. The double stack train was still there this morning.
5. Rumors regarding the cost of having the line closed (to CSX) floated around. Rumors as to what the railroad was paying the farmer for staging the cleanup were floated. Several "officials" with briefcases were seen entering the farmers house around 1030am. This farmland is very good land.
6. Allegedly the crew members made a statement to the first responders about what happened. I will not repeat what was said. A medical person indicated certain proceedures were "encouraged" by CSX to the Emergency Room. A little tug of war went on there.
7. Testing of the track circuits and signals were to occur later today.
8. An ethanol car allegedly "popped". This might be the reason for the burned out nature of the lead unit of the Q395 locomotive. The three units of Q161, running on track 1 which hit the derailment ran quite a ways up the embankment. I walked around these units and took a number of photos. There was very little if any spillage of diesel fuel. There seemed to be almost no spillage of hazmat.
9. This is a very interesting location which is within a few hundred yards of a continental divide. Water flows either to Lake Michigan or to the Gulf of Mexico.
10. Rail panels for the replacement were being assembled as I left this morning. There seems to be quite a coordinated effort among all parties concerned.
That is about it for now. The local news said it will take a year for the NTSB report to be issued. That will make outstanding reading.
While there is a considerable mess to cleanup, there are a few silver linings. No one died. It doesnt appear that anyone is seriously injured. Had this been a loaded ethanol train then who knows what would have happened. No severe environmental damaged seemed to have occured.
CSX is running trains this morning. There is one running thru the derailment site as I write this with several EBs following.
That was a quick job to get a track in place.
There are two eastbounds now, the second is a coal train (missed the symbol). Dispatcher just told the trainmaster he would run 2 WBs Q500 and Q137, then run 3 Eastbounds.
Looks like the parade is beginning.
MP173 [snipped; emphasis added - PDN] 1. Hulcher sure seems to know what they are doing. There was considerable work done overnight and during the 90 minutes or so I was there a number of containers and cars were moved. It would be interesting to see an article in Trains about such cleanup crews. Cranemaster was also there. There was a rumor floating around about the hourly rate Hulcher bills, and it was huge. When we left I counted the number of semis with lowboy trailers...there were 20 just on one road, plus numerous pickup trucks.
See:
Good report, Ed - thanks !
I can say from personal experience that these "wreckers" know their stuff. Granted, the incident I was involved with didn't begin to approach the magnitude of the IN wreck, but they do seem to have it down to a science.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
I wonder if CSX pays Hulcher a retainer fee during the period that they aren't wrecking their trains?
If you go back in time a ways, you come to a point where the only portable lifting equipment that could handle railroad cars were the railroad wreckers, known as the “big hook.” Anybody who has ever watched a railroad company picking up a wreck with this type of equipment knows what an incredibly slow and ponderous operation it is. They spend a lot of time manually extending outriggers, building a timber cribwork, and driving wedges between the cribwork and the outrigger. Then they might just make a lift to slightly reposition a derailed car, then take out the wedges, tear down the cribbing, retract the outrigger, move the crane, and start the whole process over say ten feet away.
By the late 1950s, bulldozers had gotten large enough to more or less be able to push derailed cars around, and at least get them out of the way so the mainline could be rebuilt to get the trains running as soon as possible. But what the bulldozers lacked was the ability to lift anything. Most of them only had a blade to push dirt. Some also had a powerful winch on the back that might come in handy for wreck work. But initially, the bulldozers worked alongside the railroad wrecker cranes as supplementary tool.
One of the specialized configurations of a bulldozer, going back quite a ways, was the “side-boom” used for laying pipelines. As the heavy equipment art evolved, Caterpillar introduced the D9 bulldozer model in 1956. As with smaller, previous models, the D9 found a niche by being set up as a side-boom cat for pipeline work. It was not long before railroads discovered the incredible utility of side-boom D9s for handling derailed freight cars. This was the pinnacle of the application of crawler tractors to railroad derailment cleanup. For most applications, it made the conventional railroad “big hook” obsolete.
I don't know current rates for derailment contractors but I used them a few times for industrial work about 10 years ago and the rate was $1,250 per hour for R. J. Corman, That got me two sidwinders, a dozer and six men plus a pick-up and a lighting unit on a trailer. The rate was port to port and if I put them on standby, then the clock started at that moment and ended when they got back to their base. I have to think track hoes, hazmat, track panels, etc add to the present base figure, especially the panels since they are an industrial item and not a service.
I know that if I needed track panels, Hulcher had them at Toledo, Ohio back then and Corman had them at Celina, Ohio, about two hours south of Fort Wayne. I later learned they have a big facility there and build them for CSX and others in that facility.
Trackwalker97
creepycrank I wonder if CSX pays Hulcher a retainer fee during the period that they aren't wrecking their trains?
I can't speak to the railroad (ie: CSX, or any other paying a company to be on call for wrecks or other Contracted Maint issues.)
My observation is that these companies seem to be located at locations,and areas that make it convenient to speedily respond to various rail emergencies, and available tosrepond when called by any rail company.
Hulcher Services seems to be scattered across the country, The following link shows their distribution: http://hulcher.com/locations.html
RJ Corman Derailment Services lists their locations on their website: http://www.rjcorman.com/contact_derailment.html and their home website lists the number of corporate activites and locations.
Utilco Railroad Services is a much smaller operation (with two locations in South Georgia) They are unique as they use modified lifters constructed on JD Equipment, and other specialized equipment they have constructed.Their site has lots of photos.
http://www.utilcorailroadservices.com/Locations.htm
Another company listed as doing derailment services is Terra Enviromental Services in Chester, Pa. Paul North might be familiar with those folks(?) Their website is @ http://www.goterra.org/derailment.htm
This is just a short list that I was familiar with. I have no idea where each would stad as far as size. I would defer to some of the MOW professionals who pass these Threads and respond. I would guess there are a lot more of these specialist contractors around the country that respond when their services are needed.
It is definitely an interesting line of work to the railfan and hobbyist to see these folks move in and clear a blockage. They work quickly and seem undaunted at the messes that they must make right. Seems like they make every move count with their massive machines, and abilities to lift and move, while rotating and swinging locomotives and rail cars out of the way, to unblock the flow of traffic.
Oh, Big Hook clean ups were mezmerzing for sure. Ahd, yes, cumbersom, slow, and an ego ride for the wreckmaster for the railroad was his for the moment; he was Presiden, CEO, General Superintendent, Trainmaster, RoadForman of Engines, the local, the manifest, and the varnish crew; his machine was the only thng allowed to move on the railroad at the moment, his men were his army and no one dare apporach them on any flank. So he was going to bask in the power and the glory for as long as it took but still working fast knowing the crowning of achievement was the quickness. But it was not only newer and bigger off track equipment that brought about the Big Hooks end, it was also aided by the end of the second track. I don' know where or which railroad track supervisor came up with the thought, some say DL&WW, but I heard also that it was on the PRR or maybe NYC. At any rate with the lack of two or more tracks on the broad right of way, it was easy make a roadway alongside the track., not one that followed the right of way, but kept railroad off track vehicles able to get to any spot on the railroad from any grade crossing without having to take to the rails. Thus the big dozers and cranes and whatever else has been invented, can cozy right up to a derailment and upright the mess in what seems like moments compared to calling the wrecker wilh the attnedent crew and train. Today, where I see large flatbed trucks alongside the former EL main in Campville, NY, replacing rail and ties is the same place I last saw the medium Steam Crane of Erie vintage called in from Hornell clean up a mess the same place where Gorick Construction followed trackside years later for Corail mishaps. Today's Hulcers, R.J.Cormans, Goricks, and others remind me more of oil well rig firefighting outfits more than the burly wreckmaster and his crew, jumping from railroad and wreck to railroad and wreck rather from the muster of the roundhouse wail at the nearest division point.
The interesting aspect to this location was that it was in a pretty big cut. The line is nearing the "summit" of a 10 mile grade (only about .4%, but enough to slow things down). The rail line is about 20 feet below the lay of the land.
So, there was a considerable number of trees that were simply removed, in order to gain access to the wreckage. So, not only was there cleanup, but the first thing that had to be done was the removal of about 50 - 75 feet of trees, nearly all were probably 18" - 24" in diameter.
The local Hulcher site is in Hammond and I will be calling on them this week (sales call) and hopefully gain a little more info. Quite an operation.
Ed, could you confirm which train was involved in which position, or was cleanup too far along for that?
Carl:
All trains were westbound.
The empty Ethanol train was stopped on Main 2. Typically trains which are going thru the crossovers at Suman will stop at County Road 400 East, which is appx MP225.5. Suman is MP 226.7. This location allows WB trains NOT to foul road crossings. The intermediate signal is located east of County Road 400 at MP224.6. The bridge is appx MP224.2.
So, the Ethanol train is from MP 225.5 and is probably 5000 feet in length and ends about MP224.5.
Q395 runs into the Ethanol train. There is a sweeping right hand curve, about the middle of which passes under the bridge. The previous signal is MP222.2 (four deuces) to the east. So, there is limited visability from just east of the curve to the bridge. Plus the train was going downgrade (.38% grade).
The Q395 would have struck the Ethanol train at appx MP224.5 on Main 2 and the resulting derailment fouled Main 1 (the northern track).
Q161 was running on Main 1 at a speed reported to be 57mph. Intermodals are carded for 60mph thru the area. The HBD is located at MP225.8 and the speed of the train is reported. Almost all WB intermodals run thru the area at 60mph, unless a restrictive signal or crossing over at Suman.
Q161 hit the debris and the locomotives derailed to the northside, away from the ethanol train (THANK YOU VERY MUCH). The three locomotives ran up the embankment and came to rest about 200 feet from the lead engine of Q395's lead engine.
Q395's lead engine appeared to be burned and severely damaged. The 3 units of Q161 probably will be able to return to service, from the appearance.
Photos were emailed to Trains this morning, perhaps they will have those on line today.
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