I need to know when turntables, roundhouses, balloon/reverse loops and wye's started being used, stopped being used and if they are still used today.
I looked and cannot find information as to when these transitions took place. I am not asking for exact dates unless available, just an era within 5 years to a decade if possible, within 20 years if necessary, I'll even accept a time frame within 50 years if that is all that is available as to when the transition took place.
To make this easier I know roundhouses and turntables are no longer used. And if I am not mistake wye's are still used to this day, but I don't know about ballon or reverse loops. Can someone please put together a timeline or chronology of this for me, please?
Balloon or reverse loops are still in use today on some mountain routes as there is where the MOW Snow removal trains get turned around to go home.
Turntables and Roundhouses are also still used today depending on what railroad you are talking about as well...
Amtrak uses a Wye twice a day getting in and out of Denver as they back the train into the station.
Darren (BLHS & CRRM Lifetime Member)
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SUX V R40 Rider I need to know when turntables, roundhouses, balloon/reverse loops and wye's started being used, stopped being used and if they are still used today. I looked and cannot find information as to when these transitions took place. I am not asking for exact dates unless available, just an era within 5 years to a decade if possible, within 20 years if necessary, I'll even accept a time frame within 50 years if that is all that is available as to when the transition took place. To make this easier I know roundhouses and turntables are no longer used. And if I am not mistake wye's are still used to this day, but I don't know about ballon or reverse loops. Can someone please put together a timeline or chronology of this for me, please?
Roundhouses were built with steam maintenance in mind and used turn tables to get the locomotives into the roundhouse and to turn them for return runs. The angle of the stall tracks from the turntable gave ample space at the front of the locomotive in the roundhouse to allow crews to work on the cylinders and general appliances that were located near the front of the locomotive. Each stall usually had a pit under it also for general inspections. When steam was retired, most roundhouses were torn down but a few were used for light diesel maintenance since the buildings were already there. Very few roundhouses remain today since most (90% or more) were torn down after the last steam was retired in the late 1950's to the late 1960's era. Steam required much more maintenance and many small towns had roundhouses and employed many workers for the 24 hour shifts. There are a few historical roundhouses that have not been torn down yet for some reason, but most were not suitable for diesel maintenance.
Balloon and reverse loops are still used as mentioned prior for snow plows and other special type of equipment including Amtrak. Y's are actually fairly common for branch line connections and are used in some areas for passenger equipment turn around at major terminals. Diesel shops were built new on many railroads completely separate from the steam facilities since they were usually longer buildings to house early four unit diesels and had several parallel stalls with ramps for the workers to get to the equipment.
There are many books on railroads in general and they might help you understand the use of all three items you asked about.
CZ
From my list of Roundhouses and Turntables (http://cs.trains.com/TRCCS/forums/t/195380.aspx) I count 82 "In-Use" (for railroad purposes) Roundhouses w/Turntables in the U.S. and 57 more worldwide.
Evidence from the Google Earth images that I have studied is that many Turntables were replaced with Wyes for turning engines when the physical Roundhouse and Turntable were removed; although many Turntables are still in use long after the Roundhouse was raized... sometimes the radial tracks remain and sometimes even those were removed and just the Turntable was kept for turning engines/cars.
I don't see much evidence that Turntables were replaced with balloon tracks. Balloon tracks and some Wyes seem to have co-existed with Turntables and often remain after the Turntables were removed.
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
CAZEPHYR SUX V R40 Rider: I need to know when turntables, roundhouses, balloon/reverse loops and wye's started being used, stopped being used and if they are still used today. I looked and cannot find information as to when these transitions took place. I am not asking for exact dates unless available, just an era within 5 years to a decade if possible, within 20 years if necessary, I'll even accept a time frame within 50 years if that is all that is available as to when the transition took place. To make this easier I know roundhouses and turntables are no longer used. And if I am not mistake wye's are still used to this day, but I don't know about ballon or reverse loops. Can someone please put together a timeline or chronology of this for me, please? Roundhouses were built with steam maintenance in mind and used turn tables to get the locomotives into the roundhouse and to turn them for return runs. The angle of the stall tracks from the turntable gave ample space at the front of the locomotive in the roundhouse to allow crews to work on the cylinders and general appliances that were located near the front of the locomotive. Each stall usually had a pit under it also for general inspections. When steam was retired, most roundhouses were torn down but a few were used for light diesel maintenance since the buildings were already there. Very few roundhouses remain today since most (90% or more) were torn down after the last steam was retired in the late 1950's to the late 1960's era. Steam required much more maintenance and many small towns had roundhouses and employed many workers for the 24 hour shifts. There are a few historical roundhouses that have not been torn down yet for some reason, but most were not suitable for diesel maintenance. Balloon and reverse loops are still used as mentioned prior for snow plows and other special type of equipment including Amtrak. Y's are actually fairly common for branch line connections and are used in some areas for passenger equipment turn around at major terminals. Diesel shops were built new on many railroads completely separate from the steam facilities since they were usually longer buildings to house early four unit diesels and had several parallel stalls with ramps for the workers to get to the equipment. There are many books on railroads in general and they might help you understand the use of all three items you asked about. CZ
SUX V R40 Rider: I need to know when turntables, roundhouses, balloon/reverse loops and wye's started being used, stopped being used and if they are still used today. I looked and cannot find information as to when these transitions took place. I am not asking for exact dates unless available, just an era within 5 years to a decade if possible, within 20 years if necessary, I'll even accept a time frame within 50 years if that is all that is available as to when the transition took place. To make this easier I know roundhouses and turntables are no longer used. And if I am not mistake wye's are still used to this day, but I don't know about ballon or reverse loops. Can someone please put together a timeline or chronology of this for me, please?
It sounds like wye's are used more than balloon loops these days, especially when it comes to the maintenance and repair. When did railroads start using wye's and loops? Do you think loops would still be built today?
Balloon track arrangements are still being built to turn unit trains.
If there is the realestate available and need to turn a long train all at once, then a balloon track is often built these days... A quick look at Campbell county North of Gillette, Wyoming (using Google Earth -- 44°24'12.42"N, 105°27'36.68"W) and I see four balloon tracks. And at the south end of the track into that area are two wye connections to the east west main.
Railroads build what is needed to get the job done.
First, right...there are so many books and histories which are available with accurate and colorful information...more so than what you might find here. Get to your library and get some books; winter's coming and when you can't get out and about, a good railroad video or book can be warming, fun, entertaining and very informative.
Second. All three have been common to railroading almost since day one Balloon tracks can accomodate whole trains and locomotives too large to fit on turntables. Turntables often had to be enlarged, lengthened or redug as locomotives got larger. WYE's were cheaper to build than turntables and took less room than loops...they were also handily build where a branch intersected or crossed a mainline or other railroad. In small yards, they would often only accomodate only a locomotive and tender. With the advent of the diesel and its ability to run in either direction equally, the need for turntables and wyes fell off. Balloon tracks were rare but are probalby more common today because of mineral loading and unloading in wide open spaces and by unit trains. There are still times when turning a locomotive is needed if only to keep the cab in the forward position. Out on the line, if not around terminals, cars often can only be loaded or unloaded from one side and either a turntable or wye will come in handy. Its just not like the days of steam when turning locomotives was imperative.
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My take is the OP is asking more about terminals, especially engine terminals, or ends of branch lines. Turning facilities explicitly for turning engines instead of those that happen to occur at junctions that have wyes or loops at unit train loading/unloading points. (Although those wyes and loops aren't expressly for turning just an engine, they are used for that when needed.)
Many terminals still have turning facilities of some kind. Although diesels can operate in either direction equally well, there are still times a diesel may need to be turned. While turntables and balloon tracks remain in use, wyes are probably the most often used option at terminals. They don't require as much maintenance as a turntable nor take up as much room as a balloon track.
Back in the steam era sometimes you could find both a turntable and either a wye or balloon. The reason being that some terminals had older, shorter turntables that some of the newer, bigger steam power couldn't fit on. If the turntable couldn't be enlarged, then either a wye or balloon track would be built to turn the power.
In the steam era there were a lot more turning facilities at the end of branch lines. With the demise of steam, turning an engine wasn't as important at the end of a branch line so the facilities were pulled up in many instances to save money.
Jeff
SUX V R40 Rider It sounds like wye's are used more than balloon loops these days, especially when it comes to the maintenance and repair. When did railroads start using wye's and loops? Do you think loops would still be built today?
In 1982 - 1983 the company I was then with built a brand-new wye in the Mulberry Point line at the Aberdeen Proving Ground, Maryland. Since then, many of the others on the Powder River Basin line mentioned above have been built. I don't think we've seen the last of any of them, though turntables might now be built new or re-installed only once every 20 years or so.
- Paul North.
Semper Vaporo From my list of Roundhouses and Turntables (http://cs.trains.com/TRCCS/forums/t/195380.aspx) I count 82 "In-Use" (for railroad purposes) Roundhouses w/Turntables in the U.S. and 57 more worldwide. Evidence from the Google Earth images that I have studied is that many Turntables were replaced with Wyes for turning engines when the physical Roundhouse and Turntable were removed; although many Turntables are still in use long after the Roundhouse was raized... sometimes the radial tracks remain and sometimes even those were removed and just the Turntable was kept for turning engines/cars. I don't see much evidence that Turntables were replaced with balloon tracks. Balloon tracks and some Wyes seem to have co-existed with Turntables and often remain after the Turntables were removed.
I have one oddity to add to your list. If you go to Google Earth or some sort type the address of 435 Old Saint Louis Rd. Wood River, IL. There is a large white steel dome building. The facility is called WATCO and they repair rail cars. Inside the dome is a turntable with tracks arranged like a roundhouse. Just thought it was a neat little tidbit that would fit into this conversation.
For a few decades after the end of steam and cab-type diesels, turntables and wyes were still used fairly often to turn cars instead, and in some places still are. That was typically for piggyback/ TOFC cars that were being loaded and unloaded at 'circus-loading' type ramps with tractors that would drive up onto the deck of the cars to hitch to the trailer - obviously, it had to be facing the correct way for that to work. Now that the side-loading 'Piggypackers' and overhead cranes are more prevalent for loading and unloading TOFC - and containers are more of a share of intermodal - that need is less.
The need was also there for some boxcars and flat-car loads - typically lumber - which were loaded from one side in a way that pretty much dictated they be unloaded from the same side. Some passenger cars - observation cars with a platform, lounge, or theatre-type seating and a viewing window at the rear end come to mind - also occasionally need to be turned to be operated pointed in the proper direction.
There's also a long-time turning loop on the former SP, now UP, at Colton, Calif., together with a wye ! They're on the south side of I-10, just east of the Pepper Ave. interchange, within a few hundred feet of these Lat./ Long. coords.: N 34.06731 W 117.34497
At the 2011 AREMA Conference, one of the contractors had a brochure about a new turntable they had built and installed for one of the major railroads in the last few years. I'll see if I can find a link for it. One reason for that would be if a roundhouse has been upgraded over the years to still be a current engine servicing facility, but the turntable is deteriorated or has a poor mechanism, is overloaded, etc. Rather than throw away the investment in the building and its location, a new turntable may be the key to preserving the value of that asset. See, for instance, these webpages:
http://www.macton.com/rail_equipment/locomotive-turntables.htm
http://store.americancrane.com/product/rane-custom-engineered-material-handling-equipment/american-crane-turntables?&bc=3184|3608|3188|3596|3441
The newly constructed ethanol plant south of Ashton, Iowa, was built with a loop, a good portion of which is double track. You can see it at 43 16' 33.73 N, 95 48' 34.24 W.
As far as turning equipment goes, my experience is that turntables are mostly passe for the exact reasons that several of you have stated. There's still one at Proviso (Chicago), though the roundhouse is long gone. They tore out the one at M-19A (40th Street) about two years ago (the coal towers went a couple of years before that). Wye tracks have the advantage for taking up less space than a balloon track, but are limited by the tail track to just how long a set of equipment they can turn. Balloon tracks are the best for turning entire trains while also loading (or unloading) them, which is why the mines in Wyoming (as well as other places like power plants) use them. One exception I can think of is Janesville, WI. The former C&NW yard there (now UP) has a balloon track, which I suspect was put in because of the length and loading of auto racks (a moot point because the GM plant there is now shut down). On the subject of diesel locomotives, yes, theoretically you can run them in either direction, but when you take into account such things as coded cab signals, automatic train stop/control systems, ditch lights, desk top throttle stands, etc., there really is only one direction you can operate them in as lead locomotives. You need a means of turning them, or you need to run them back to back. And then the maintenance level comes into play, because the trailing unit may be facing the proper direction, but something doesn't work on it, so you have to spin the leader. Been there, done that.
In modern times balloon tracks are the favorite design for loading and unloading unit coal trains especially. They work well for loading other types of bulk unit trains too.
In earlier days the most likely place to find balloon tracks was in the immediate vicinity of a coach yard, often encircling a roundhouse. There was a preferred orientation for most types of 1st class cars (sleepers, diners, etc) and a balloon track was the most efficient way to turn an entire train. A nearby junction might provide a wye without the issue of tail track length, but the operation would interfere with mainline movements. Some roads would turn an incoming train at the junction and then back down to the station to have the cars properly oriented for later departure.
Turntables continue to have a niche since they require a lot less space than a wye. Even if a wye is available nearby the hostler may be restricted to operating on the shop tracks only. Many turntables disappeared for the simple reason that the entire shop facility has vanished leaving only a vacant lot, memories and an environmental headache. The trains just roll on by.
Sometimes in the mountains they would create a balloon track for helper engines/snowplows by simply building a connector track between the two levels of a horseshoe curve. The connector could be very steep. An example is at Fir on the ex-Rio Grande's Veta Pass line.
37°29'6.25"N 105°11'4.14"W
Hey Mike, are you also from Colorado?
Clearing Yard was built in the 1900's with a pair of balloon tracks, one for each direction, to facilitate the servicing and turning of road power handling transfers to and from the yard. I believe that the balloon tracks are still in place and in use.
Stourbridge Lion Balloon or reverse loops are still in use today on some mountain routes as there is where the MOW Snow removal trains get turned around to go home. Turntables and Roundhouses are also still used today depending on what railroad you are talking about as well... Amtrak uses a Wye twice a day getting in and out of Denver as they back the train into the station.
On one of the two times we went into Washington on the Capitol Limited, we backed in on an upper level track. The other time, we headed in on a lower level track, stopping beside the southbound Crescent (we were running a tad late) so transferring passengers would not miss their train out..
Johnny
Stourbridge Lion Hey Mike, are you also from Colorado?
I grew up in the New England/ New York area and now live in Michigan. My plan was to keep moving west to Colorado. Now that I am retired, maybe...
I first rode the Silverton in 1965 (in Rio Grande days) and have been hooked ever since. I've rode virtually all the CO tourist lines, and the Zephyr a few times. I've driven over or along most of the abandoned routes, and in my younger days x-country skied to the top of Boreas Pass. Moving to Colorado would considerably shorten my railfan and ski area commute, but as my wife has family in Michigan, inertia will probably keep me in the Colorado tourist category.
The NYC's balloon track at Harmon, NY was used almost exclusively to turn steam locomotives. This was the steam/electric engine change point for all passenger traffic in and out of Grand Central Terminal in Manhattan. Steam locomotives that arrived in Harmon from the west backed around the balloon track, over the four-track main (and possibly other tracks at the same time), and arrived on the proper side of the main, properly pointed to take their next train west.
I'm not sure if motors (electric locomotives) used that balloon track. In fact, I'm not at all sure that it was even electrified and, being bi-directional, motors wouldn't have needed to turn anyway.
ChuckAllen, TX
Don't forget the turning loops for long-distance passenger trains at Sunnyside Yard ("Harold Interlocking"), Queens, New York City, originally built circa 1911 by the PRR, and still operated by Amtrak, at about these Lat./ Long. coords.: N 40.74999 W 73.92061
That reminds me of the turning loops within Grand Central Terminal in New York.
Here is a turntable at the Albina Yard of UP in Portland OR http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=45.545806,-122.684256&spn=0.001126,0.001692&t=h&z=19&vpsrc=6
and a Wye just up the street in Vancouver, Wa by the BNSF Yard
http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=45.629495,-122.683854&spn=0.006362,0.01354&t=h&z=16&vpsrc=6
And a bit of fun- a mile long tunnel that runs right under an old neighborhood of Portland starts here out of the UP yard http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=45.574584,-122.711902&spn=0.001126,0.001692&t=h&z=19&vpsrc=6
and comes out here http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=45.590715,-122.712286&spn=0.003183,0.00677&t=h&z=17&vpsrc=6
The Mark Twain Zephyr was the immediate descendent of the Pioneer Zephyr. The cars could not easily be uncoupled. Not far south of the Mississippi river bridge at Burlington, the whole train was turned using a wye. The line to St. Louis hugged the river. The wye was laid along a creek that cut into the river's limestone bluffs.
Some years back, Trains (or was it MR?) did an article about a branch line that terminated in a large loop.
I don't recall the location, but Wisconsin or Minnesota sound familiar.
The Raquette Lake Railway (1900-1933) had a large loop at the Raquette Lake end, and a wye at their connection with the Central at Carter.
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tree68 Some years back, Trains (or was it MR?) did an article about a branch line that terminated in a large loop. I don't recall the location, but Wisconsin or Minnesota sound familiar.
I think I remembe the MR article you're talking about. Does "Fox River" ring any bells? That location came to mind as soon as I read your first sentence.
The initial post of this thread asks when these kind of railroad services started.
In the UK small turntables, for small locos (at that time) and wagons were provided at stations and terminals in the earliest days of railroading. The wagon turntables served goods sheds; allowing wagons to be moved 90 degrees from the running line into the goods shed. I would think that the early American railroads had much the same facilities.
Engine sheds, of one or two roads, were the norm initially but obviously some loco serving depots gew in size and had more, usually longer, roads added and the development of a roundhouse became necessary as the loco fleet expanded.
Loops and wyes came at a later date.
Alan, Oliver & North Fork Railroad
https://www.buckfast.org.uk/
If you don't know where you are going, any road will take you there. Lewis Carroll English author & recreational mathematician (1832 - 1898)
And there is a wye in Vancouver, B.C., which is used by the incoming Canadian so it is backed into the station (We've been around it twice).
An American Heritage series book Railroads in the Age of Steam (1960) has an illustration showing a garden railroad built by Louis XIV at Versailles in 1714. Carriages with guests aboard were pushed along straight rails and were turned at corners on a "new invention": the turntable.
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