Another quickie with Mookie

[Overmod]

Slight clarification: Yes, there are separate types of radio, and yes, they have tuners to access separate bands as Jeff indicates. (And yes, there are standard freqs for different functions depending on the railroad)

Note that it may be more complicated than necessary for, say, an engineer to monitor both his yard traffic and dispatch at the same time, if there is substantial activity on two channels at the same time. Most train radios (imho) only receive one channel at a time, and don't 'scan' between ranges -- hence the possible use of several transceivers in the same cab, at the same time. Yes, it's the same general radio band... but that's only relevant to the folks who built, and who maintain, the equipment.

Note that as cheap communications continue to evolve, we can expect different bands and modulations to come in as well. I found it interesting that much of the 'automated locomotive data' systems use commercial cell-phone technology, rather than satellite uplink or VHF radio, to implement data transfer. Many of the modern radio and PTC systems use something very different from traditional FM... digital and analog systems have to be mutually deaf in order to be compatible, distressingly similar in some ways to many marriages.

[jeffhergert]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mookie

QUOTE: Originally posted by Overmod

Another possible answer for la Mook -- reflecting the last half of the original question:

There may be advantages to using several types of radio on the same train. For example, it may be important to keep yard 'chatter' off a main dispatching channel (i.e. using separate systems with different freqs or effective ranges might be much more convenient for crews doing different things in the same general area). So you would have walkie-talkies for crew communication, use the 'train phone' to talk to the dispatcher or track crews out on the main where you're planning to go, and keep a speaker 'hot' so you can hear incoming messages easily when outside the cab... but the speaker will cut off when you pick up your handset.

Ah Ha! My thinking at the time. That was the reason for the question - I was running through my mind (quiet, Dan!) that maybe there were separate radios for separate places. Radio for dispatcher, phone for yard master or however it is set up?

Anyone?

Mook

Not separate radios, separate radio channels. Modern locomotive radios have multi-channel capability with access to all frequencies in the railroad band. In a large yard there will probably be several channels that are active.
The dispatcher will be on the road channel. The yardmaster may be on another channel.
Mechanical or maintenance of way will probably have their own channels. The yard engines and switch crews may even be on a separate channel. If you need to talk to someone on one of these other channels, you flip your radio to the proper channel and call them.
Jeff

[Modelcar]

....Oh yes, old time radio...and I'm going back farther than you might be....was realistic to the point of being scary at times.....

[Mookie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

....Jen....The police force: "don't say it on the radio"....Cell phones are radios, and...well, use imagination.....

Note in my photo a 200 ch. scanner.

Yeah, that ran through my mind - but you know - from what I hear in restaurants and on the sidewalks - cell phones are incredibly dull. So don't want to sift through all that to listen for a good tidbit.

Kind of like old time radio - my imagination is much better than reality! [;)]

[Modelcar]

....Jen....The police force: "don't say it on the radio"....Cell phones are radios, and...well, use imagination.....

Note in my photo a 200 ch. scanner.

[Mookie]

You know how our fine police force has gotten around the "don't say it on the radio"?

They use cell phones and call each other. And that is fine, since I still am entertained by what goes over the radio from dispatch. The fire channel is really the one I want but get police as a bonus. Since I live across the intersection from the fire station, just want to know where they are going. Ok - I am nosy!

But most of the watchers I have seen, have scanners and up loud enough that anyone in the area could hear them (guess most men are sorta deaf - probably by choice)

I don't hunt for things to listen to - I am pre-programmed to the service channels. So I stay there.

Mookie

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Overmod

Be careful Jen -- in more than a few jurisdictions, it's technically illegal to listen in on police radio. (Originally intended as 'interference with police communications', but too many criminals started using scanners to monitor where the bulls were and what they were doing... and you know how it is when the laws supposedly have to apply to everyone 'equally'.)

I think that would be fairly hard to enforce, unless the information was used in the commission of an offense, since it is an over the air, unencrypted broadcast in the commercial bands. The cold reality is that law enforcement needs encryption tools if they want folks to not know what's going on. Listening to ATC or even military clear channel radios is not against the law, particularly using a wideband receiver/scanner. I think unless it was proved that espionage or maliciouss intent existed it would be eventually overturned. The same case probably couldn't be made for a radar detector though, which is illegal in some states as it is a narrow band receiver, designed to prevent enforcement of speed laws. Besides without scanners how would lawyers and tow truck drivers make a living???

Radio wise, the military uses phone style handsets for radios in nearly every instance that a head set or hand held is not required.

[Overmod]

Be careful Jen -- in more than a few jurisdictions, it's technically illegal to listen in on police radio. (Originally intended as 'interference with police communications', but too many criminals started using scanners to monitor where the bulls were and what they were doing... and you know how it is when the laws supposedly have to apply to everyone 'equally'.)

I presume, of course, that you already know your police well enough that they wouldn't do more than just bust your chops a bit...

Handheld scanner while railfanning is almost GUARANTEED to get you security-related interest, especially in northern New Jersey...

[Mookie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

Jen....No scanner...! With the seriousness of your railfanning, you should invest in that tool to increase the info flowing to you...There is quite a bit of data bouncing around on them all the time, especially in an area you describe to be watching with so much activity in the yard, etc....I'm not as serious at paying attention to rail movement details as you seem to be and I can hear chatter around Muncie almost anytime I turn it on...They are not as expensive as they once were either. It really would put more info at your fingertips...[ears...], as you and driver are at your favorite watching spot....Maybe driver wouldn't like to hear all that chatter though....Hmmmm. Can always use headphones. By the way a 200 channel portable scanner can pick up all kinds of civil service activity out there. And another thing....When you see that engineer talking on the "phone"....chances are you may be able to hear him...because in reality he's really talking on a "radio"...that you most likely can pick up on your scanner....Have fun.

Q - have two plugged into the wall scanners at home. Both upstairs in different rooms. Never listen to the railroad when at home, cuz the police and fire depts are more interesting. I could get a hand-held for train watching, but then I wouldn't have all these questions to ask the nice people on the forum. Well, at least they would be different ones, cuz then I would have to learn the lingo. But food for thought.
(actually, when there is someone parked nearby, they usually have a scanner and I can roll down my window and eaves drop on them....)

Jen

[Modelcar]

Jen....No scanner...! With the seriousness of your railfanning, you should invest in that tool to increase the info flowing to you...There is quite a bit of data bouncing around on them all the time, especially in an area you describe to be watching with so much activity in the yard, etc....I'm not as serious at paying attention to rail movement details as you seem to be and I can hear chatter around Muncie almost anytime I turn it on...They are not as expensive as they once were either. It really would put more info at your fingertips...[ears...], as you and driver are at your favorite watching spot....Maybe driver wouldn't like to hear all that chatter though....Hmmmm. Can always use headphones. By the way a 200 channel portable scanner can pick up all kinds of civil service activity out there. And another thing....When you see that engineer talking on the "phone"....chances are you may be able to hear him...because in reality he's really talking on a "radio"...that you most likely can pick up on your scanner....Have fun.

[Mookie]

(pushing Dan out of the way....) Another question - what about when the crews are sitting very patiently waiting to leave town. Do they give you information on what you are waiting on - ie. a train from the south, and some sort of a timetable before you will be able to leave? Kind of like an airport with waiting airplanes?

I don't have a scanner, so not sure just what all goes on in the interim. I rely on hearing the whistles in the distance and one lone dwarf that blinks when something is coming in on that track.

Mookie

[Overmod]

Back to the topic for a moment (I have too much regard for BOTH the Navy and Marines to suggest anything to further the other)

The phone would probably be to the dispatcher and to other folks related to road movement. Radio (being portable and not as ergonomic) would be for crew activity in the yard... perhaps for the yardmaster, but I'd expect him to be on the 'phone' too.

What you want to separate is all the local traffic from different crews... after all, you don't want to be following someone else's switching directions by mistake, do you! ... from the 'central announcements' that everyone hears and responds to.

It's a bit easier to deal with 'text' communications and visual indicators (although perhaps just as complicated) -- we covered the use of many different methods of differentiating streams and types of communication in critical-systems management in ITU group R10 a few years ago.

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mookie

Gotta go to Nails R Us for a sharpening! Going to be a long week!

I heard on CNBC that they sold their consumer products division to a Chinese company...Wang-Wa Fang & Claw......


hehehe[;)]

[Mookie]

Gotta go to Nails R Us for a sharpening! Going to be a long week!

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mookie

heard something over the weekend that if the Marines ever fold up their organization, the Navy won't have a job.....

Hmmm - now where did I hear that....

Moo

Taking care of Marine wives?

[Mookie]

heard something over the weekend that if the Marines ever fold up their organization, the Navy won't have a job.....

Hmmm - now where did I hear that....

Moo

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mookie
[brI

was running through my mind (quiet, Dan!)

Mook

Did the sound of the foot steps echo?[:D]

[Mookie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Overmod

Another possible answer for la Mook -- reflecting the last half of the original question:

There may be advantages to using several types of radio on the same train. For example, it may be important to keep yard 'chatter' off a main dispatching channel (i.e. using separate systems with different freqs or effective ranges might be much more convenient for crews doing different things in the same general area). So you would have walkie-talkies for crew communication, use the 'train phone' to talk to the dispatcher or track crews out on the main where you're planning to go, and keep a speaker 'hot' so you can hear incoming messages easily when outside the cab... but the speaker will cut off when you pick up your handset.

Ah Ha! My thinking at the time. That was the reason for the question - I was running through my mind (quiet, Dan!) that maybe there were separate radios for separate places. Radio for dispatcher, phone for yard master or however it is set up?

Anyone?

Mook

[Overmod]

Another possible answer for la Mook -- reflecting the last half of the original question:

There may be advantages to using several types of radio on the same train. For example, it may be important to keep yard 'chatter' off a main dispatching channel (i.e. using separate systems with different freqs or effective ranges might be much more convenient for crews doing different things in the same general area). So you would have walkie-talkies for crew communication, use the 'train phone' to talk to the dispatcher or track crews out on the main where you're planning to go, and keep a speaker 'hot' so you can hear incoming messages easily when outside the cab... but the speaker will cut off when you pick up your handset.

[dharmon]

All I know is that Mookie chick seems to get around........[}:)][;)]

[Mookie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

....A variation of your morning theme Jen....Looked at the NS passing track in west Muncie last evening as we came into town and found the typical cut of grain cars sitting there and for the last 2 days each [different], cut of cars has had 3 and 2 locomotives connected to them....This is different. Have not seen the power there with the grain cars before....No one in the locomotive cabs but could see the instrument panel was lit up.....and Jen, I'm still watching [just for the fun of it], for number 1807 engine you mentioned passing your way last week...None of these were it but were NS engines and we'll keep watching.

Since I see them on the weekends, by the time I get here, they could be long gone to and coming back again. But you can add to your list - saw a NS Dash 9 - 9683 on Saturday morning - heading south and maybe east after that. Love those ponies!

Jen

[Mookie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jeffhergert

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mookie

Ahem! Back to the question! If engineer is still in yard, uses telephone, who is he talking to, or how far is he calling? Is he talking to someone in the yard, setting up a coupling? Or is he checking with a dispatcher in Texas as to his leaving the yard?

Simple enough....

I personally wouldn't want to use a muff or an earpiece. Have used both and they drive me nuts. But.....hate speaker phones, since like CW said - you sound - well - horrible!
Or in a well! Muff short distances (like firetrucks - perfect) Earplugs - ugh!

So ET call home and tell me who is he talking to and how far away can they be?

Any of your scenerios could be correct. The engineer could be talking to someone on a portable handset a couple of cars away, to someone in the yard office on a base station a couple of miles away, or to the Dispatcher using a radio tower in Ft Worth. They could be talking about almost anything, depends on what they are doing.
Jeff

Thank you! Question answered....

[jeffhergert]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mookie

Ahem! Back to the question! If engineer is still in yard, uses telephone, who is he talking to, or how far is he calling? Is he talking to someone in the yard, setting up a coupling? Or is he checking with a dispatcher in Texas as to his leaving the yard?

Simple enough....

I personally wouldn't want to use a muff or an earpiece. Have used both and they drive me nuts. But.....hate speaker phones, since like CW said - you sound - well - horrible!
Or in a well! Muff short distances (like firetrucks - perfect) Earplugs - ugh!

So ET call home and tell me who is he talking to and how far away can they be?

Any of your scenerios could be correct. The engineer could be talking to someone on a portable handset a couple of cars away, to someone in the yard office on a base station a couple of miles away, or to the Dispatcher using a radio tower in Ft Worth. They could be talking about almost anything, depends on what they are doing.
Jeff

[Modelcar]

....A variation of your morning theme Jen....Looked at the NS passing track in west Muncie last evening as we came into town and found the typical cut of grain cars sitting there and for the last 2 days each [different], cut of cars has had 3 and 2 locomotives connected to them....This is different. Have not seen the power there with the grain cars before....No one in the locomotive cabs but could see the instrument panel was lit up.....and Jen, I'm still watching [just for the fun of it], for number 1807 engine you mentioned passing your way last week...None of these were it but were NS engines and we'll keep watching.

[Mookie]

Ahem! Back to the question! If engineer is still in yard, uses telephone, who is he talking to, or how far is he calling? Is he talking to someone in the yard, setting up a coupling? Or is he checking with a dispatcher in Texas as to his leaving the yard?

Simple enough....

I personally wouldn't want to use a muff or an earpiece. Have used both and they drive me nuts. But.....hate speaker phones, since like CW said - you sound - well - horrible!
Or in a well! Muff short distances (like firetrucks - perfect) Earplugs - ugh!

So ET call home and tell me who is he talking to and how far away can they be?

[Puckdropper]

As far as 802.11b and 802.11g goes, get 802.11g. It's backwards compatible with 802.11b, so if you get a .11g link it could be faster. It's maybe only 10-20% more expensive??? (I don't even look at 802.11b stuff.)

If you're in the cab, why do you need anything like 802.11g at all? A 900 mHz portable phone could do the job if properly installed.

Ah shucks... Let's forget this technology stuff and go back to whistles and hand signals. We rail fans would like to be informed of what will happen. ;-) lol

[Overmod]

I was referring strictly to the local link between the headset and the engine (or other primary radio) -- NOT to wireless roaming or actual cellular systems. (I am presuming that one of the existing methods of railroad wireless-data radio is already in use and shouldn't be interfered with.

Bluetooth would also work, and has some power advantages for a headset that's self-contained and runs on batteries, but so far its stuff is more expensive; 802.11b would be cheaper and many of the chip cores and other enabling technology are already costed-down and functionally obsolescent in computer network connection, but my opinion is that the .11g stuff will quickly match it (look at USB1.1 vs. USB 2.x!) and be capable of much more stuff. I'm already planning for video feed to the individual crew members, metadata information, etc. which would otherwise require expen$ive stuff in the equipment the crew would be expected to buy or receive from the RR or union.

I agree that with uni the range would be insufficient... but note that most train-related communications would be in close enough to a straight line that something like a Pringles-can Yagi would make the range. In any case, I do NOT think that train-to-headset transception *wants* to be particularly long range, particularly if the link security is for any reason less than strong.

[Puckdropper]

802.11g doesn't have a large enough range for it to work. You can get maybe engine-to-enine communications, or with external antennas engine to 20th car.

[Overmod]

Mookie --

I think most people consider a headset to be a 'personal' item -- it has to fit your head, go over your ears, etc. Would you want to HAVE to put such a thing on your head if it were sitting on the locomotive? In cold weather? After the last guy who used it had greasy hair, and the guy before that too much earwax, and the guy before THAT shared a few of those onions with that NS locomotive?

Alternatively, of course, you could carry your own headset with you and plug it in. But what if you forgot...

I wouldn't be surprised if there were a prohibition against having full earcups over both ears at the same time -- there is, for example, in every state I know of if you're driving a motor vehicle. I'd be worried about this in many cases -- for example if there weren't a tie-in to the cab-signal whistle; ask Randy Gates what he thinks ;-}

My personal 'design' preference is to use a modified cell-phone headset, with noise cancelling in the microphone circuit and only one earphone. Have a standard plug on the locomotive that ties the radio into this headset. Or use short-range wireless (not replacing the 'standard' hard-wired radio or handheld transceivers). Standard wireless networking protocols (e.g. 802.11g) would give you ways to do this cheaply at the same time you integrated other forms of information transmission...

Any contrary opinions?