For those interested I wanted to give a update concerning the Semaphores and the status of the Raton pass line in New mexico.
A few years ago the state of New mexico purchased the Raton pass line from BNSF with plans of future expansion of their Rail runner commuter train. These plans have now been canceled and the contracts terminated. The state of New mexico determined that it would not be a good idea to spend more money on upgrading the Raton pass line especially with the Rail runner already running in the red financially.
One of the main factors in the state backing off the purchase is the loss of tax revenue from the BNSF paid to the state for property taxes. Other factors were the expensive upgrades to track and signals, along with environmental clean up along some stretches.
Normally the state would not have much recourse as the sale had been finalized and money paid to the BNSF. However BNSF continued to maintain and operate the line leasing it to Amtrak which runs two trains daily. The state also claims BNSF allowed the closing date of April 30th,2009 to lapse and therefore breached the contract.
The state now claims it has no intention of purchasing the line and is requesting a refund for the money already paid to the BNSF.
This is good news for rail fans as if the state of New mexico did purchase the line it would have been upgraded resulting in the loss of the many semphore signals,jointed rail,and telegraph poles with glass insulators. BNSF stopped running freight many years ago on the line. Amtrak still runs two trains daily.
It is very unlikely BNSF will do any upgrades to the line including signal upgrades with only two trains daily. So it looks like the semaphores will be safe in the near future as long as Amtrak keeps running the line.
I was recently in New mexico this weekend and can confirm that there is still a ton of semaphores alive and well and in operating condition....
North of Colmor siding-Two semaphores
Colmor siding-Three north and three south.
Between Colmor siding and Levy siding there are 4 pairs.
South end of Levy siding-Three semaphores.
One pair South of Levy.
3 semaphores North at Wagon mound.
South of Shoemaker siding to Watrous- 6 semaphores
Watrous siding-3 North and 3 South.
Two semaphores just South of Las vegas.
Ojita siding-3 North and 3 South.
Between Ojita siding and Chapelle siding there is 6 semaphores.
Chapelle siding-3 North and 3 South.
Blanchard-Two semaphores.
Between Cerrillos and Lamy-5 Semaphores.
Yeh, love those semaphores, but what about the condition of the track? What about the condition of the passengers who have to ride on that track? What does the future hold? Would BNSF mind if Amtrak switched to the Transcon and stopped serving Alberguergue and Raton? Now that the Transcon is all two track?
Given a choice, I'd rather see a decent future for the line and a smooth ride than semiphores and lousy maintenance.
Thomas 9011, where do you get the 'specific' information about the current status of the Agreement between the State and BNSF. If it is from reliable sources please share those sources with us.
The last posting here indicated the State wanted out of the Agreement and claimed BNSF was in violation of the Agreement. That assertion by the State seemed difficult to believe because BNSF has no reason to not complete the deal since they do not need nor want the line from Trinidad to Lamy. The State at one time, albeit under a different Governor, was ready to go ahead with the purchase and it now looks like they have concluded they made a mistake.
BNSF has offered AMTRAK the opportunity to operate Trains 3 and 4 on the Transcon.
It's the state who welched, not BNSF. Funny how that gets twisted. (I agree with DC's view)
BNSF is maintaining Lamy to Trinidad and just sent Amtrak a large bill because NM says "no thanks"... There currently is no freight on the line, Lamy,NM to Jansen, CO (close to Trinidad)
Things are coming to a boil.
(Just drove DEN-PHX and PHX-DEN over the last week....New Mexico is such a sorry looking mess - much more depressed than AZ or CO in a commercial/industrial sense. Did see BNSF out working on the Glorietta and Raton Subs on both days.)
Here is a article about the story from the Raton range newspaper and it has more specifics.... http://ratonrange.com/state-railway-conflict-over-tracks-deal-p2528-1.htm
I am not sure why BNSF continued to maintain track and also take payments from Amtrak despite the state of New mexico purchasing the line years ago. Ownership including leasing payments from Amtrak should have been transfered to the state of New mexico.
daveklepper Yeh, love those semaphores, but what about the condition of the track? What about the condition of the passengers who have to ride on that track? What does the future hold? Would BNSF mind if Amtrak switched to the Transcon and stopped serving Alberguergue and Raton? Now that the Transcon is all two track? Given a choice, I'd rather see a decent future for the line and a smooth ride than semiphores and lousy maintenance.
The track is in very good condition although probably 90% of it is jointed rail. BNSF does a pretty good job maintaining the track. As far as I know,Amtrak is good for maximum allowed speed and it is typically running at 79mph.
I rode the entire line earlier this year on Amtrak and it was fun ride. The cars did bounce a bit in some places but overall it was a smooth ride. Most of the curves have been replaced with welded rail which keeps things running smooth. You are going so fast over the jointed rail that you hardly even notice it.
As far as the future we will have to wait and see. Although BNSF would sell the line they don't seem to be eager to get rid of it anytime soon or made plans to abandon it. With only two trains a day maintenance is minimal. New mexico is a large state and railroads typically charge around $3.00 per car per mile to use the line. So they are probably making a nice profit with Amtrak and continue to lease the line to them year after year. I have never heard of BNSF wanting Amtrak to stop service with the railroad.
Not sure how Amtrak would feel about losing New mexico. Amtrak's bread and butter is with the East coast lines. Long distance trains have always been money losers and Amtrak recently took a big hit with funding.
I did hear rumors that BNSF was going to be running grain trains along the Raton pass route again but I am taking that rumor with a grain of salt.
Won't the coming requirement for PTC force Amtrak off this line and on to the Transcon? Regardless of who is the owner after the dust settles, I don't see that they have any motivation for a PTC ungrade, which leaves Amtrak the choice of paying for it themselves or moving the train.
Thanks for the info. I rode thru Raton Pass on the Southwest Chief a few years ago. A lady whose husband worked for BNSF boarded the train and sat with us in the diner.
A group of Boy Scouts detrained there for a nearby camp. Apparently, it's a very popular place and if Amtrak is forced to move, I don't how that will impact getting to the camp. I guess buses will be used.
Thomas 9011 Here is a article about the story from the Raton range newspaper and it has more specifics.... http://ratonrange.com/state-railway-conflict-over-tracks-deal-p2528-1.htm
Sunnyland [snipped] A group of Boy Scouts detrained there for a nearby camp. Apparently, it's a very popular place and if Amtrak is forced to move, I don't how that will impact getting to the camp. I guess buses will be used.
http://philmontscoutranch.org/Camping/TravelingtoPhilmont/companies.aspx
- Paul North.
I'm hopeful that Amtrak will keep the SW Chief on the Raton Pass line for the long-haul. Also, I've head that CDOT would someday like to get some sort of service in the Denver - Albuquerque corridor (possibly all the way down to El Paso). The one thing I've NEVER understood is WHY doesn't BNSF have any intermodal service between Denver and Southern California???
Denver Sucks loads in it hardly has ANYTHING OUT. Except for Coors Beer there is Nothing out of the Denver area on a consistant basis.
What route would BNSF use? The UP can run double-stacks Denver - LA on its route. Tough to try to use the Moffat with single-stacks to compete. And south to Raton along the congested joint line?
Los Angeles Rams Guy [snipped] The one thing I've NEVER understood is WHY doesn't BNSF have any intermodal service between Denver and Southern California???
The southern Transcon has substantial capacity which is one reason BNSF has offered to handle Amtrak's #3 & #4 on it between Newton and Dalies (just west from Belen). where those trains now run on to LA without complication.
In 2007-8 when there were 100 - 120 trains a day between Barstow and Belen this line worked efficiently with Amtraks #3 and #4. I drive along I-40 multiple times each year and have a scanner tuned to the BNSF frequencies used by the dispatchers. Since I know the locations of the CTC crossovers I can visualize the meets even when they are not viewable from the Interstate. It could be considered amazing unless one has info about the investment BNSF has made, both in infrastructure and personel, to achieve this result. Now that the Abo Canyon difficulty has been eliminated the Transcon to Clovis will operate as well as the portion west from Belen.
Diningcar (11-16):
Has the very short high-fill BNSF section over the UP (SP) at Vaughn, NM finally been two-tracked also?
Thanks,
K.P.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.
[quote user="K. P. Harrier"]
Has the very short high-fill BNSF section over the UP (SP) at Vaugh, NM finally been two-tracked also?
No, and the Pecos River crossing single track remains but these are minor when compared to Abo Canyon.
Link to 2009 photo (not mine) of BNSF train crossing the Pecos River bridge at Fort Sumner, NM:
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=276373
Interestingly, all 3 'bottlenecks' - Abo Canyon, the Vaughn fill, and the Pecos River - are in New Mexico !
I can understand and accept the reasons for BNSF not having intermodal service between Denver and Southern California (even if I don't agree with all of them) but as far as Amtrak's Southwest Chief is concerned, it NEEDS to stay on the Raton Pass mainline route. Despite some of the enhancements to the BNSF Transcon mainline as aptly pointed out by Dining Car, for folks in northern New Mexico and southeastern Colorado, there just aren't many transportation alternatives available. Also, considering how bloody congested I-25 is from Denver southward, CDOT and/or NMDOT are going to have to find some sort of solution and the Raton Pass mainline, along with the Joint Line, seem to be it.
Los Angeles Rams Guy [snipped] . . . for folks in northern New Mexico and southeastern Colorado, there just aren't many transportation alternatives available [Amtrak's Southwest Chief . . . NEEDS to stay on the Raton Pass mainline route]. Also, considering how bloody congested I-25 is from Denver southward, CDOT and/or NMDOT are going to have to find some sort of solution and the Raton Pass mainline, along with the Joint Line, seem to be it.
Anyway, with the Joint Line at capacity now and improvements for it to be had only at premium prices (per other posts here from time to time, chiefly by mudchicken), and perhaps I-25 as well . . . then somebody please tell CDOT and NMDOT to bring plenty of $$$ when they finally decide to show up and negotiate in good faith !
In September 2010 I had the rare opportunity to ride on an Amtrak Special train of twenty private cars between Amarillo and Belen.
Two thoughts apply to this thread: (1) BNSF had no problem scheduling this train through the 28 (I counted them) freight trains operating from 8:00 AM at Amarillo until arrival in Belen at 3:30 PM. (2) The Pecos River crossing had no congestion when I was through here; the same at Vaughn, however Abo Canyon was still under construction and there were backed up trains waiting in both directions (including this Amtrak Special that was not given any special handling).
[quote user="Paul_D_North_Jr"]
Los Angeles Rams Guy: [snipped] . . . for folks in northern New Mexico and southeastern Colorado, there just aren't many transportation alternatives available [Amtrak's Southwest Chief . . . NEEDS to stay on the Raton Pass mainline route]. Also, considering how bloody congested I-25 is from Denver southward, CDOT and/or NMDOT are going to have to find some sort of solution and the Raton Pass mainline, along with the Joint Line, seem to be it.
I occasionally go on-line to try to find out what is the latest on the Colorado front range bypass. The last thing I could find was meeting notes from a BNSF- Colorado DOT meeting in May of this year
http://www.coloradodot.info/projects/PassengerFreightRailPlan/SFPRailPlan-MiscellaneousDocuments/MeetingNotes-BNSF-5-5-2011
The reason for CDOT to support the freight bypass seems to have been diminished since the I-25 corridor study is now proposing it's own rail alignment rather than using the joint line.
Paul - I don't doubt for a second that New Mexico welched on the deal; even Mudchicken gave me the details on what really went down. But I also have to fault the equally inept CDOT here as well. They NEED to step in on this thing in one form or another and ensure not only that the SW Chief stay on the Raton Pass mainline route but also to work with BNSF and UP to develop passenger rail on the I-25 corridor.
I have worked at Philmont for several years and am somewhat familiar with its workings. A significant portion of Philmont's participants utilize the train to and from Raton. It is more popular than taking the train to Denver and then taking a bus south. The Denver option would generally be used for campers for whom the Southwest Chief is not convenient (a le people coming from places like Salt Lake City, the Bay area, or Omaha). It would be unfortunate for Philmont to lose Amtrak service to Raton. I remember as a new staff member riding the train out and in 2004 along with several other staff members. It is the least expensive and most convenient way of getting to NE New Mexico if you live along the Chief's route and its connecting lines.
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Thomas 9011Not sure how Amtrak would feel about losing New mexico. Amtrak's bread and butter is with the East coast lines. Long distance trains have always been money losers and Amtrak recently took a big hit with funding.
That's inaccurate and is a common myth.
NO passenger trains "make money," not even the NEC corridor trains.
The New York-Fla. trains don't turn profits either.
Please refrain from tarnishing the great LD trains with such unsupportable & false statements.
I also love Semaphore Signals, but how long will they last?
Paul, so there is UP intermodal servic on the Moffat between Debver and LA? Dedicated trains or hadled in manefest? That is good news for keeping the Moffat in good shape. Couldl and should be a growing business.
The Moffat has clearance for TOFC, but not for double-stack.
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