I dont want to step on anyone's toes here...that is not my purpose.
There was a very high level of railroad knowledge that was passed around on this forum a few years ago. One could ask a fairly basic question about the (fill in the blank) of the railroad industry and receive a wide response from railroad professionals. A number of these are still on board today and make valuable contributions.
There were extremely spirited conversations involving a couple of former members (both fired from the forum, if memory serves me) that while usually led to escalation in the discussion, did provide the platform for the exchange of ideas that were amazing. Futuremodal and Michael, I often disagreed, but sure found your discussions educational and entertaining....yes, I know many here will disagree with my statement.
Here is a current situation...a couple days ago I started a thread on CSX and NS to generate a little of the old time religion. That thread pretty much died without any discussion on the current situation at both railroads these days. I understand we have employees of both railroads on the forum and if I were an employee...would be reluctant to share much info. But still, arent there others out there with observations (from the field) as to how these two great carriers are operating?
Or, have the two railroads simply gathered so much profitable business that they are on cruise control, or perhaps reached "utility" status?
What is the future of this industry? How is capacity going to be addressed? What about "open access"? What about Montana wheat rates?
I enjoy railroading as a form of art and even went out this week and took a couple of photos of trains in the stunning fall foliage in NW Indiana and realized that great photographers and we have a few here are truly artists (and I am NOT). But, the nuts and bolts of railroading has been described and reported on quite well the past couple of issues of the mother magazine - the status of CSX and the Intermodal issue.
In this vein of thought...what is the future of Tenneesee Pass? Why is UP holding on to it? What role does it have 15 years down the road (if any)? We all understand it is an operational nightmare. We all know it is a spectacular stretch of eye candy for 99% of people on this forum.
But, something is in the works (or maybe not) for TP and Saluda. I just miss the intelligent discussions, pros and cons of topics like these.
Now, sorry for the rant and absolutely nothing against current members, but I really miss in depth intellegent discussions.
Ed
gabe Plus, not to discredit current forum members but to lament the passing of members who are no longer on here, the forum isn't a remote shadow of what it once was. We seemed to do better with less "civility." Don't believe me? Simple math--count the average posts per day compared to four years ago. Yeah, we had a few arguments, but that was some the best railroad reading I have ever had the honor to be a part of. As far as I am concerned, "civility" is a bad word, as it has robbed me of the reading that I once so enjoyed. Gabe
Plus, not to discredit current forum members but to lament the passing of members who are no longer on here, the forum isn't a remote shadow of what it once was. We seemed to do better with less "civility." Don't believe me? Simple math--count the average posts per day compared to four years ago.
Yeah, we had a few arguments, but that was some the best railroad reading I have ever had the honor to be a part of. As far as I am concerned, "civility" is a bad word, as it has robbed me of the reading that I once so enjoyed.
Gabe
Paul,
At the time S TWO made his post, he had very few if any postings (2 or 3, if I remember). Then, he without much explanation somehow contorted my comment lamenting the fact that Mark truly was gone from the forum to be some sort of dig at the current forum members--a strange and unusually forward comment for someone who had three posts at the time he rendered that opinion.
In short, I smelled and smell a rat. Although the fact that I am suffering from Jetlag writing these posts from the UK currently might have produced a bit less of a measured respone than it otherwise might have, for the foregoing reasons, I maintain my position.
First, to S TWO - (Too bad you kind of got close to a hornet's nest right away . . . )
Perhaps gabe meant this entire "thread" - not just S TWO's "post" immediately above - in gabe's post above which might have offended S TWO. There was nothing wrong, missing, or against Mr. Hemphill's line of thinking on Tennessee Pass in that post by S TWO - but this thread would be of interest to him, if he had anything more to say on it.
I understand that he is extremely busy at work lately, and he got tired of people here who only wanted to "shout louder".
I suspect that the "sarcasm level" in gabe's post just above is rather high . . . perhaps he's just "yanking your chain", but I'll let him speak for himself, and won't put words in his mouth. Still, civility should be a prime goal here.
- Paul North.
S TWO Thanks for your clarifacation, I'm aware of some of Mr. Hemphills deeds, it seemed to me that there were a couple of shots being taken at the current contributors. I personally started railroading in May, 1980 at 18 years old, I'm still R.R.ing, you do the math. I'm familiar with T.P. but didn't work it, my brother did, I've worked the Moffat and quite alot of other R.R. in the southwest mostly.
Thanks for your clarifacation, I'm aware of some of Mr. Hemphills deeds, it seemed to me that there were a couple of shots being taken at the current contributors. I personally started railroading in May, 1980 at 18 years old, I'm still R.R.ing, you do the math. I'm familiar with T.P. but didn't work it, my brother did, I've worked the Moffat and quite alot of other R.R. in the southwest mostly.
I don't know how you concluded that either post was a shot at current contributers. My shot was aimed entirely at you . . .
Actually, Ed just really nailed my point. Mark had a particular area of focus on the Tennessee Pass. His ability to relate it to some of the fundamental principles of railroading was a thing to behold. Plus, he usually had an opinion when the topic would come up. Thus, my point was if any post would usher Mark out of his abeyance, a post on the Tennesse Pass would do it.
But, on reflection, I think my post was aimed at . . .
I recall seeing a small snippet in Trains a few years back where the UP operated a train over the TP route (it may have been nothing more than a couple of locomotives; can't recall). If I recall the article correctly they did this just to check things out.
Somewhere between Buna Vista and Granite there was a fairly decent rock slide that was blocking the ROW. There are pics of it online somehwere. I would imagine there are quite a few spots like that. The locals have also found new a creative ways to use the lineside poles. A bunch have been cut down to never be seen again.
I am up in the Granite area quite a bit and have noticed that a lot of the signals, defect detectors, etc have been vandalized or completely removed. With all that "scrap steel" I wonder how long it is going to be before someone starts going after the rail.
On a related note...I believe Mark Hemphill had an outstanding photo essay article on TennPass in TRP magazine sometime back in the 1990's. I have it downstairs in a box...somewhere. It was at his high level of content.
MP173 S TWO: Several years ago there were very serious discussions about the industry which took place here. Many of the key knowledgeable folks are no longer here. We are still blessed with a considerable number of great railroaders that make great observations and go out of their way to answer questions. It's just not quite the same. Ed
S TWO:
Several years ago there were very serious discussions about the industry which took place here. Many of the key knowledgeable folks are no longer here. We are still blessed with a considerable number of great railroaders that make great observations and go out of their way to answer questions.
It's just not quite the same.
Absolutely: What ED (mp173) Stated!
S 2: If you are wondering: Mark W. Hemphill is, a very respected individual around here.
If you 'Search' the name on Wiki you will find all the references you need. Between 2000 and 2004 Mark earned a lot of respect of Fourmists here and Subscribers of TRAINS magazne. As Editor of the magazine.
Probably one of the few Editors/Journalists who were or ,are actually railroaders. Not to mention his time spent in Iraq during the height of Operations there during 2005/2007 as a Consultant to Iraqi RR.
Whats that mean, you guy's better than anyone else who makes comments? Foamers! LOL!
Gabe:100% in agreement. We were spoiled 5 years ago with the knowledge from Mark and a number of members which have moved away.
Unfortunately this forum is a shadow of it's former platform.
In a way this post is sad to me. It confirms that Mark Hemphill is not on the forum under an alias.
We'll see what happens in the future, not only the 3% grade on the west but the degrees of curvature are extreme as well. However the Moffat can't handle any more traffic than it's got now, BNSF crews west out of Denver only go to Kremmling, that's as far they can make it before going dead.My brother was a Rio Grande brakeman in the '70's he used to catch a W.B. hotshot out of North Yard take it Bond and hop on the E.B. hotshot and make it back to Denver in 8 hours!
ericsp Is there any reason why UP would not just send the trains to Cheyenne then down to Denver if the Moffat route was unusable for some reason?
Is there any reason why UP would not just send the trains to Cheyenne then down to Denver if the Moffat route was unusable for some reason?
MidlandMike Paul, what started out as a conversation on the mothballed Tennessee Pass line, now has me even more worried for the Moffat route. According to you reference http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moffat_Tunnel_Improvement_District the tunnel was offered for sale by the state in 1998, but the railroad didn't bite, apparently figuring it had little value to anyone else. If you are wondering if it has value to anyone else, you don't have to look out the West Portal any further than the sprawling Winter Park ski resort. On I-70 west of Denver, the first ski area exit is for Winter Park. However, you have to first climb the switchbacks on US 40 over Berrthoud Pass, so most cars continue on I-70 thru the Eisenhower Tunnel to the 5 major ski areas on the other side. The state could extend route 72, obtain Federal money to widen the tunnel, and bypass a major headache on US 40. Or perhaps the parallel water supply tunnel becomes blocked, and if the state still owns both tunnels, they might appropriates their railroad tenant's tunnel if they had not bought it by then. The UP could simply redirect remaining business down a reopened Tenn. Pass, using any cost increases as a basis to raise rates. BNSF trackage rites trains could also utilize the TP, as they have an eastern connection at Pueblo. Amtrak could revert to UP's Wyoming route as they did in the '70s. As long as the Rio Grande remains a stepchild, the cards are stacked against it.
Paul, what started out as a conversation on the mothballed Tennessee Pass line, now has me even more worried for the Moffat route. According to you reference http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moffat_Tunnel_Improvement_District the tunnel was offered for sale by the state in 1998, but the railroad didn't bite, apparently figuring it had little value to anyone else. If you are wondering if it has value to anyone else, you don't have to look out the West Portal any further than the sprawling Winter Park ski resort. On I-70 west of Denver, the first ski area exit is for Winter Park. However, you have to first climb the switchbacks on US 40 over Berrthoud Pass, so most cars continue on I-70 thru the Eisenhower Tunnel to the 5 major ski areas on the other side. The state could extend route 72, obtain Federal money to widen the tunnel, and bypass a major headache on US 40. Or perhaps the parallel water supply tunnel becomes blocked, and if the state still owns both tunnels, they might appropriates their railroad tenant's tunnel if they had not bought it by then. The UP could simply redirect remaining business down a reopened Tenn. Pass, using any cost increases as a basis to raise rates. BNSF trackage rites trains could also utilize the TP, as they have an eastern connection at Pueblo. Amtrak could revert to UP's Wyoming route as they did in the '70s. As long as the Rio Grande remains a stepchild, the cards are stacked against it.
"No soup for you!" - Yev Kassem (from Seinfeld)
I really dont know much about the line, having been to the Royal Gorge as a 9 year old many years ago. It is on the list of my "time travel" trips...the photos of TP line are outstanding. Nor do I know anything about the UP operations in that area.
Having said that...it seems like any railroad would have the reluctance to abandon a line these days. While the economy has certainly cooled off and loadings are down, any line that could possibly be used has to be considered as being retained.
Pretty sad looking at those photos of the line with the signals still in place, but perhaps the route will again see trains.
Falcon48 - You're right on the "Moffat Tunnel Improvement District", which was run by the Moffat Tunnel Commission, though apparently it was "sunsetted" circa 1996 - 1998. See (usual disclaimers apply to the Wikipedia articles):
http://www.colorado.gov/dpa/doit/archives/moffat/index.htm#access
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moffat_Tunnel
The line in the foreground of this old "bird's-eye view" drawing of the region - running west from Pueblo and labeled as "Denver and Rio Grande R.R." - is the Tennessee Pass line, though not labeled as such: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Moffat_Tunnel_Overview.JPG Since even back then it shows no lines east (or south) of Pueblo, it clearly illustrates the circuitry of the Tennesse Pass route as compared to the Moffat Tunnel route, let alone as compared to the Wyoming UP main line as mentioned by Falcon48 above.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moffat_Tunnel_Improvement_District
http://www.drgw.net/info/TennesseePass
Union Pacific must think there's a potential reuse for the line sometime in the next 10-20 years. Millions of dollars of welded rail that is in pristine condition with a lot of ton miles left in it has been left in place for 15 years now for just such an eventuality.
The DRGW Moffat route is a major coal route, and is likely to remain so as long as Colorado-Utah coal continues to move. It is also a BNSF trackage rights route, which BNSF obtained in the UP-SP merger. I don't think there's much chance of it going away in our lifetimes, unless the coal stops moving due to environmental issues. In my view, the route is more secure as a UP route than it would have been as a short line spinoff. UP regards the Colorado-Utah coal as an important part of its coal franchise
One little factoid, however, which many may not be aware of. I don't remember the year but, long before the UP/SP merger, UP looked at an extension from its Wyoming main line south to the Colorado coal fields served by DRGW in the Craig area - the line may have actually been surveyed. Obviously, with DRGW now being a part of UP, there's no reason for UP to do that today. However, if the Moffat route ever became unavailable because of a natural disaster or other reasons, this could conceivably end up being the "fix".
The Moffat rail tunnel (there's also a water tunnel) is owned by a Colorado agency (I think it's called the Moffat Tunnel Improvement District, but don't hold me to that). UP uses it under a long term (100 year) lease agreement originally made before the tunnel was opened.
Thanks for the pics. I doesn't look like it's in bad shape. It almost looks as it's all ready to go if it gets reopened.
Lone Geep
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I drove over Tennessee Pass at the end of September and I noticed a hi-rail truck and some other equipment near the site of Camp Hale. It looks like there may still be some maintainence on the line.
While I don't dispute Falcon48's historical facts, I don't think you can always use what happened even 5 years ago to predict what will happen 5 years from now in today's evolving rail world. Someone described the Rio Grande mainline as two coal roads joined in the middle. If you want to make dire predictions, you might guess that after TP goes, that UP will stop maintaining the Green River bridge and sever the mainline, or at least insist that Amtrak maintain the middle part of the route. Colorado spent significant public monies building the Moffat tunnel to ensure a viable route, and has a legitimate interest in it's survival. It's too bad that the Rio Grande was not partly spun off something like BN>MRL. While both those routes thrive, the Rio Grande has the look of something on borrowed time. I would think it would be in a larger railroads best interest to have a weak competitor, than to be a monopoly in a region and a target for re-regulation.
I am very familiar with the Tennessee Pass line and was involved in the discontinuance of service over it. A few points in response to the various posts on this thread, which I've made before in other threads:
(1) UP sold the segment between Canon City and Parkdale to Royal Gorge Express (RGX) in the late 1990's, after the UP/SP merger. RGX is a partnership comprised of the Canon City & Royal Gorge (the tourist road) and Rock & Rail (a short line railroad affiliated with the gravel quarry at Parkdale). UP retained overhead trackage rights over the RGX line segment, in the event it ever restored through operations over the TP line. UP also retained the signal sytem and dispatching authority over the line for the same reason. Within the last 5 years, UP has transferred both the signal system and dispatching control to RGX, which suggests that UP no longer regards restoration of through service as a likely possibility.
(2) BNSF has no trackage rights (latent on otherwise) on the TP route. They also pretty obviously have no interest in ever using the TP line for anything. They used to have trackage rights over the segment between Pueblo and Canon City (which they obtained when ATSF abandoned its own line between these points). They sold these rights to Rock & Rail at least 10 years ago. They wouldn't have done this had they had any interest in themselves using the TP line.
(3) As noted in other posts in this thread, a major impediment to a restoration of service over the TP line is the lack of an outlet east of Pueblo. Historically, the TP line interchanged most of its traffic with the MP at Pueblo. As a result of the UP-MP merger, DRGW gained trackage rights over the MP line east of Pueblo. However, as a result of the UP-SP merger and later trackage changes, the MP line is no longer available as a through route. Routing TP traffic through Denver makes no sense. This makes any restoration of service over TP highly unlikely. The only scenario that would make any sense is if a new connecting were built between the remaining segment of the MP line and the KP line east of Denver, a very expensive proposition for a very inferior route.
(4) During the UP/SP merger, many parties argued that abandonment of the TP line was inadvisable because the Moffat route could not handle the traffic being handled on the TP route. The parties making this argument uniformly failed to appreciate the fact that the Moffat route wasn't the alternative for the TP trafficc). Rather, in the context of a UP-SP merger, the alternative for most of the TP traffic was the UP route through Wyoming, which is what, in fact, happened.
(5) As a result of the UP/SP merger, the TP line was originally discontinued (but not abandoned) between Gypsum and Parkdale. About 5 years ago (my timing may be off by a year or so), UP resumed some very limited services to the Minturn (west Belden) area.
My personal prediction is that the TP route between Parkdale and Minturn (West Belden) will be fully abandoned within the next 5 years.
RudyRockvilleMD Three weeks ago my wife and I drove over US 50 from Salida to Canon City, and I noticed the track and some signals were still in place. As we approached Parkdale, I believe, we noticed a whole string of hopper cars on the track. Part of the Tennessee Pass line between Canon City and Parkdale is used by the Royal Gorge Railroad which runs excursion trains through the Royal Gorge. I wonder who owns the hopper cars we saw near Parkdale?
Three weeks ago my wife and I drove over US 50 from Salida to Canon City, and I noticed the track and some signals were still in place. As we approached Parkdale, I believe, we noticed a whole string of hopper cars on the track. Part of the Tennessee Pass line between Canon City and Parkdale is used by the Royal Gorge Railroad which runs excursion trains through the Royal Gorge. I wonder who owns the hopper cars we saw near Parkdale?
This was the shortline referred to in a previous post. See
http://www.rockandrail.com/
http://www.coloradorailfan.com/gallery/gallery.asp?on=20110924&by=KM
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