We'll see what happens in the future, not only the 3% grade on the west but the degrees of curvature are extreme as well. However the Moffat can't handle any more traffic than it's got now, BNSF crews west out of Denver only go to Kremmling, that's as far they can make it before going dead.My brother was a Rio Grande brakeman in the '70's he used to catch a W.B. hotshot out of North Yard take it Bond and hop on the E.B. hotshot and make it back to Denver in 8 hours!
In a way this post is sad to me. It confirms that Mark Hemphill is not on the forum under an alias.
Gabe:100% in agreement. We were spoiled 5 years ago with the knowledge from Mark and a number of members which have moved away.
Unfortunately this forum is a shadow of it's former platform.
Ed
Whats that mean, you guy's better than anyone else who makes comments? Foamers! LOL!
S TWO:
Several years ago there were very serious discussions about the industry which took place here. Many of the key knowledgeable folks are no longer here. We are still blessed with a considerable number of great railroaders that make great observations and go out of their way to answer questions.
It's just not quite the same.
MP173 S TWO: Several years ago there were very serious discussions about the industry which took place here. Many of the key knowledgeable folks are no longer here. We are still blessed with a considerable number of great railroaders that make great observations and go out of their way to answer questions. It's just not quite the same. Ed
Absolutely: What ED (mp173) Stated!
S 2: If you are wondering: Mark W. Hemphill is, a very respected individual around here.
If you 'Search' the name on Wiki you will find all the references you need. Between 2000 and 2004 Mark earned a lot of respect of Fourmists here and Subscribers of TRAINS magazne. As Editor of the magazine.
Probably one of the few Editors/Journalists who were or ,are actually railroaders. Not to mention his time spent in Iraq during the height of Operations there during 2005/2007 as a Consultant to Iraqi RR.
On a related note...I believe Mark Hemphill had an outstanding photo essay article on TennPass in TRP magazine sometime back in the 1990's. I have it downstairs in a box...somewhere. It was at his high level of content.
I recall seeing a small snippet in Trains a few years back where the UP operated a train over the TP route (it may have been nothing more than a couple of locomotives; can't recall). If I recall the article correctly they did this just to check things out.
Somewhere between Buna Vista and Granite there was a fairly decent rock slide that was blocking the ROW. There are pics of it online somehwere. I would imagine there are quite a few spots like that. The locals have also found new a creative ways to use the lineside poles. A bunch have been cut down to never be seen again.
I am up in the Granite area quite a bit and have noticed that a lot of the signals, defect detectors, etc have been vandalized or completely removed. With all that "scrap steel" I wonder how long it is going to be before someone starts going after the rail.
Thanks for your clarifacation, I'm aware of some of Mr. Hemphills deeds, it seemed to me that there were a couple of shots being taken at the current contributors. I personally started railroading in May, 1980 at 18 years old, I'm still R.R.ing, you do the math. I'm familiar with T.P. but didn't work it, my brother did, I've worked the Moffat and quite alot of other R.R. in the southwest mostly.
S TWO Thanks for your clarifacation, I'm aware of some of Mr. Hemphills deeds, it seemed to me that there were a couple of shots being taken at the current contributors. I personally started railroading in May, 1980 at 18 years old, I'm still R.R.ing, you do the math. I'm familiar with T.P. but didn't work it, my brother did, I've worked the Moffat and quite alot of other R.R. in the southwest mostly.
I don't know how you concluded that either post was a shot at current contributers. My shot was aimed entirely at you . . .
Actually, Ed just really nailed my point. Mark had a particular area of focus on the Tennessee Pass. His ability to relate it to some of the fundamental principles of railroading was a thing to behold. Plus, he usually had an opinion when the topic would come up. Thus, my point was if any post would usher Mark out of his abeyance, a post on the Tennesse Pass would do it.
But, on reflection, I think my post was aimed at . . .
Gabe
First, to S TWO - (Too bad you kind of got close to a hornet's nest right away . . . )
Perhaps gabe meant this entire "thread" - not just S TWO's "post" immediately above - in gabe's post above which might have offended S TWO. There was nothing wrong, missing, or against Mr. Hemphill's line of thinking on Tennessee Pass in that post by S TWO - but this thread would be of interest to him, if he had anything more to say on it.
I understand that he is extremely busy at work lately, and he got tired of people here who only wanted to "shout louder".
I suspect that the "sarcasm level" in gabe's post just above is rather high . . . perhaps he's just "yanking your chain", but I'll let him speak for himself, and won't put words in his mouth. Still, civility should be a prime goal here.
- Paul North.
Paul,
At the time S TWO made his post, he had very few if any postings (2 or 3, if I remember). Then, he without much explanation somehow contorted my comment lamenting the fact that Mark truly was gone from the forum to be some sort of dig at the current forum members--a strange and unusually forward comment for someone who had three posts at the time he rendered that opinion.
In short, I smelled and smell a rat. Although the fact that I am suffering from Jetlag writing these posts from the UK currently might have produced a bit less of a measured respone than it otherwise might have, for the foregoing reasons, I maintain my position.
Plus, not to discredit current forum members but to lament the passing of members who are no longer on here, the forum isn't a remote shadow of what it once was. We seemed to do better with less "civility." Don't believe me? Simple math--count the average posts per day compared to four years ago.
Yeah, we had a few arguments, but that was some the best railroad reading I have ever had the honor to be a part of. As far as I am concerned, "civility" is a bad word, as it has robbed me of the reading that I once so enjoyed.
gabe Plus, not to discredit current forum members but to lament the passing of members who are no longer on here, the forum isn't a remote shadow of what it once was. We seemed to do better with less "civility." Don't believe me? Simple math--count the average posts per day compared to four years ago. Yeah, we had a few arguments, but that was some the best railroad reading I have ever had the honor to be a part of. As far as I am concerned, "civility" is a bad word, as it has robbed me of the reading that I once so enjoyed. Gabe
I dont want to step on anyone's toes here...that is not my purpose.
There was a very high level of railroad knowledge that was passed around on this forum a few years ago. One could ask a fairly basic question about the (fill in the blank) of the railroad industry and receive a wide response from railroad professionals. A number of these are still on board today and make valuable contributions.
There were extremely spirited conversations involving a couple of former members (both fired from the forum, if memory serves me) that while usually led to escalation in the discussion, did provide the platform for the exchange of ideas that were amazing. Futuremodal and Michael, I often disagreed, but sure found your discussions educational and entertaining....yes, I know many here will disagree with my statement.
Here is a current situation...a couple days ago I started a thread on CSX and NS to generate a little of the old time religion. That thread pretty much died without any discussion on the current situation at both railroads these days. I understand we have employees of both railroads on the forum and if I were an employee...would be reluctant to share much info. But still, arent there others out there with observations (from the field) as to how these two great carriers are operating?
Or, have the two railroads simply gathered so much profitable business that they are on cruise control, or perhaps reached "utility" status?
What is the future of this industry? How is capacity going to be addressed? What about "open access"? What about Montana wheat rates?
I enjoy railroading as a form of art and even went out this week and took a couple of photos of trains in the stunning fall foliage in NW Indiana and realized that great photographers and we have a few here are truly artists (and I am NOT). But, the nuts and bolts of railroading has been described and reported on quite well the past couple of issues of the mother magazine - the status of CSX and the Intermodal issue.
In this vein of thought...what is the future of Tenneesee Pass? Why is UP holding on to it? What role does it have 15 years down the road (if any)? We all understand it is an operational nightmare. We all know it is a spectacular stretch of eye candy for 99% of people on this forum.
But, something is in the works (or maybe not) for TP and Saluda. I just miss the intelligent discussions, pros and cons of topics like these.
Now, sorry for the rant and absolutely nothing against current members, but I really miss in depth intellegent discussions.
MidlandMike Paul, what started out as a conversation on the mothballed Tennessee Pass line, now has me even more worried for the Moffat route. According to you reference http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moffat_Tunnel_Improvement_District the tunnel was offered for sale by the state in 1998, but the railroad didn't bite, apparently figuring it had little value to anyone else. If you are wondering if it has value to anyone else, you don't have to look out the West Portal any further than the sprawling Winter Park ski resort. On I-70 west of Denver, the first ski area exit is for Winter Park. However, you have to first climb the switchbacks on US 40 over Berrthoud Pass, so most cars continue on I-70 thru the Eisenhower Tunnel to the 5 major ski areas on the other side. The state could extend route 72, obtain Federal money to widen the tunnel, and bypass a major headache on US 40. Or perhaps the parallel water supply tunnel becomes blocked, and if the state still owns both tunnels, they might appropriates their railroad tenant's tunnel if they had not bought it by then. The UP could simply redirect remaining business down a reopened Tenn. Pass, using any cost increases as a basis to raise rates. BNSF trackage rites trains could also utilize the TP, as they have an eastern connection at Pueblo. Amtrak could revert to UP's Wyoming route as they did in the '70s. As long as the Rio Grande remains a stepchild, the cards are stacked against it.
Paul, what started out as a conversation on the mothballed Tennessee Pass line, now has me even more worried for the Moffat route. According to you reference http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moffat_Tunnel_Improvement_District the tunnel was offered for sale by the state in 1998, but the railroad didn't bite, apparently figuring it had little value to anyone else. If you are wondering if it has value to anyone else, you don't have to look out the West Portal any further than the sprawling Winter Park ski resort. On I-70 west of Denver, the first ski area exit is for Winter Park. However, you have to first climb the switchbacks on US 40 over Berrthoud Pass, so most cars continue on I-70 thru the Eisenhower Tunnel to the 5 major ski areas on the other side. The state could extend route 72, obtain Federal money to widen the tunnel, and bypass a major headache on US 40. Or perhaps the parallel water supply tunnel becomes blocked, and if the state still owns both tunnels, they might appropriates their railroad tenant's tunnel if they had not bought it by then. The UP could simply redirect remaining business down a reopened Tenn. Pass, using any cost increases as a basis to raise rates. BNSF trackage rites trains could also utilize the TP, as they have an eastern connection at Pueblo. Amtrak could revert to UP's Wyoming route as they did in the '70s. As long as the Rio Grande remains a stepchild, the cards are stacked against it.
(1) As Mike states, the Tunnel Commission offered both the rail and water tunnels for sale in 1998 (one of the tunnel commissioners was asked by a newpaper reporter why they doing this, and his response was something to the effect that they were trying to reach those who missed out on the opportunity to buy the Brooklyn Bridge).
(2) The water tunnel was sold to the Denver Water Commission as part of this effort (I think I've got the name right) and, to my knowledge, is currently owned by them.
(3) UP and several others did bid on the rail tunnel, but the Commission rejected all of the bids, so the rail tunnel wasn't sold. I'm speculating a bit, but one of the issues was probably that the income stream that the tunnel would produce to a landlord was represented almost entirely by railroad rental payments under the original lease, which runs to 2025 (there are also some lease payments from a fiber optics line that goes through the tunnel). The lease was structured so that the payments were relatively high in the early years (to cover the tunnel district's funded debt), but then became relatively small in the later years (which is where they were in 1998). In other words, the present value of the future income stream to a non-railroad buyer in 1998 would have been small. Similarly, in 1998, the present value of the lease payment savings UP would realize by owning the tunnel, rather than continuing to pay rent, was also small. So the bids were probably a lot lower than the tunnel commission had expected.
(4) One interesting little factoid (although it's not really relevant to the current situation) is that the tunnel commision really screwed up when it made the original railroad lease in the 1920's. The railroad rental payments were calculated based the commission's estimate of what the cost of the rail tunnel would be. Trouble was that the rail tunnel wasn't finished, and it ended up costing a lot more than the estimate. The commission hadn't considered this possibility when it made the lease (which is truly amazing, given all of the things that can go wrong with a project like this). Once the true costs were known, the commission tried to get the lease reformed, but the courts turned them down. As a result, the tunnel improvement district (or, rather, the taxpayers in the improvement district) ended up eating the difference.
Thanks Falcon48. It sounds like the lease is safe for the next 14 years (however, that time will go fast; wasn't it 14 years ago that Tenn. Pass closed?) I'm not sure who maintains the Moffat Tunnel, and wonder what would happen if there was a major rock shift or other structural problem (I may be a railroad dilettante, however, I know something about rocks as I retired this year after 35 years as a geologist.) I haven't heard that this is a problem tunnel from the railfan press , and I hope it stays that way.
MP173 In this vein of thought...what is the future of Tenneesee Pass? Why is UP holding on to it? What role does it have 15 years down the road (if any)? We all understand it is an operational nightmare. We all know it is a spectacular stretch of eye candy for 99% of people on this forum. But, something is in the works (or maybe not) for TP and Saluda. I just miss the intelligent discussions, pros and cons of topics like these. Now, sorry for the rant and absolutely nothing against current members, but I really miss in depth intellegent discussions. Ed
This is the question I'd like to see answered, or rather discussed and there were a few hints but nothing concrete in this thread. UP is holding on to this and leaving the rails down.
I'm no expert, but this is still real property they have to pay money on to keep. Why?
My (just) speculation: Cheap insurance against major contingencies elsewhere (like that Oregon landslide about 3 years ago), and an uncertain future but likely one with much more rail traffic in it.
UP committed to hold on to it for a while after the post merger congestion melt-down. Perhaps they are waiting until the lack of need becomes obvious. In the meantime there is a natural constituency building to have it removed. Neighbors get annoyed at seeing weedy abandoned rails. Cyclist and snowmobilers agitate to have the rails pulled for a rec trail. Developers covet the Minturn yards real estate. I've skied Vail, but I never ventured down the out-of-bounds locals trail they dub the "Minturn Mile". The resort might like another base area. The mining town of Gilman above Belden siding is in the hands of a developer. Personally, I.m hoping for a miracle.
MidlandMike Thanks Falcon48. It sounds like the lease is safe for the next 14 years (however, that time will go fast; wasn't it 14 years ago that Tenn. Pass closed?) I'm not sure who maintains the Moffat Tunnel, and wonder what would happen if there was a major rock shift or other structural problem (I may be a railroad dilettante, however, I know something about rocks as I retired this year after 35 years as a geologist.) I haven't heard that this is a problem tunnel from the railfan press , and I hope it stays that way.
Paul_D_North_Jr My (just) speculation: Cheap insurance against major contingencies elsewhere (like that Oregon landslide about 3 years ago), and an uncertain future but likely one with much more rail traffic in it. - Paul North.
I am surprised more people have not paid more attention to Mudchicken's comments. I think his remark explains most of the questions asked of late, and is very intriguing.
mudchicken (1) Line is intact, ready to go as 49MPH TWC dark territory right now....would be running now IF economy and carloadings had not tanked. (2) Colorado buying the line? Not a chance (somebody's wishfull thinking, trail grab? UP has had to tell the trail people to "get real" several times.)....The Christo nonsense west of the Gorge made that abundantly clear. (3) Climax mine (above Leadville) re-opened in July of this year and anticipates shipping at end 1st quarter of 2012 20-30,000 pounds of equivilent refined moly a year (that tonnage of raw ore isn't going out by truck) with that tonnage ratcheting up in stages. That stuff is headed many places and no longer exclusively to Pueblo. Rumor here is that the hematite ore at Monarch is also possibly making a comeback. (4) Thanx to a 1905 deal between DNWP & CB&Q, BNSF today has the right to exercise ownership on part* (not all) of the Moffat line, it has no rights on the TP line west of Pueblo/Canon Junction anymore. (Quitclaimed from Canon Jcn to Canon City to RRRR/RGCX ) *(a result of the Gore Canyon War with UPRR ironically)
(1) Line is intact, ready to go as 49MPH TWC dark territory right now....would be running now IF economy and carloadings had not tanked.
(2) Colorado buying the line? Not a chance (somebody's wishfull thinking, trail grab? UP has had to tell the trail people to "get real" several times.)....The Christo nonsense west of the Gorge made that abundantly clear.
(3) Climax mine (above Leadville) re-opened in July of this year and anticipates shipping at end 1st quarter of 2012 20-30,000 pounds of equivilent refined moly a year (that tonnage of raw ore isn't going out by truck) with that tonnage ratcheting up in stages. That stuff is headed many places and no longer exclusively to Pueblo. Rumor here is that the hematite ore at Monarch is also possibly making a comeback.
(4) Thanx to a 1905 deal between DNWP & CB&Q, BNSF today has the right to exercise ownership on part* (not all) of the Moffat line, it has no rights on the TP line west of Pueblo/Canon Junction anymore. (Quitclaimed from Canon Jcn to Canon City to RRRR/RGCX )
*(a result of the Gore Canyon War with UPRR ironically)
First, kudos to UP for telling the bicycle shorts to back off. I have some questions though.
Tennessee Pass had been closed 10 years before the economy tanked. Did your sources say where the new traffic would come from, or where it would go when it reached Pueblo?
The Henderson mine produced 40 million pounds of moly in 2010 acording to the companies annual report, page 22 at http://www.fcx.com/ir/AR/2010/FCX_AR_2010.pdf Henderson trucks out all its production. The Climax mine is only about 20 miles further to the Kremmling loadout.
Rumors about the Monarch mine reopening really have me excited. It's the ultimate mountain branch... double loops, switchbacks, 4.5% grades... now you're just toying with me. There they mined limestone (used to flux hematite iron ore in blast furnaces.) With the Pueblo blast furnaces gone, who will use the limestone?
While it would be great if they reopened the line to Malta and re-established the connection thru Leadville to the Climax line, it still does not get them over the hump (of the Pass itself.) I wish I was as self-assured as you are about the line reopening.
Just saw this last weekend, there is a crew removing poles along the ROW near Granite. Probably would have been a good time to grab insulators if someone wanted some.
A couple of years back, I was speaking with the son of the owners of the LC&S (tourist line out of Leadville), and he said that they would like to get into the freight business if the TP line were back in service and they could re-establish a connection with it. Sounds like it would be hauling moly primarily.
I've ridden the tourist line at Leadville. I can't imagine that anyone would invest a gazillion dolars to get the line up to the mine in shape suitable to haul ore out. More likely, is that it could be trucked to a connection with a rail line somewhere.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
From what I understand, it is in really bad shape from the end of the current ride to the mine itself.
I thought it was in pretty tuff shape on the tourist line as well. It's steep, cut into the side of a cliff, and the curves are so sharp that all the wheels squeal at 5 m.p.h. I'd have to believe that, if the line were rebuilt, it would be at a tremendous cost, and probably would have to shut down in the dead of winter.
According to the company's annual report (cited in an earlier post) on page 44 they anticipate spending $700 million, and have spent a quarter billion so far on the Climax restart. I suspect rehab'ing the old C&S line would be part of the cost of doing business if it saved money over trucking, assuming UP reopened the Tenn.Pass line. C&S operated in winter even in narrow gauge days.
Is there a spike in price for moly right now? Is there a long term increase in it's value due to current manufacturing?
If rail would prove more cost effective, then I have no doubt they'll repair the line.
That might be why UP held on to it.
It's not impossible that it could be an overflow route if traffic picks up in the future.
There are those that mourn the loss of the Milwaukee Road's transcon as prior to the economic downturn, it looked like it could have had value again. This may simply be UP hedging it's bets.
Don't know. But I'll say this, New Mine activity not withstanding, I think UP relays Donner track 1 before they reopen TP to through freight.
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