Our President builds a Railroad

[samfp1943]

Folks:

          As the original poster, I was curious to see how the OP would play out within the context of the Forum.  I was attempting to be apolitical in the original post steering clear of divisive politics.

""We’re the country that built the Intercontinental Railroad," Barack Obama."

       I was aiming to see how the mention of an Intercontinental railroad would play out (as pointed out by MIKE:( Wanswheel.) a dream that has been around since the late 19th Century in one form or another.  Our President has been a supporter of HSR since his inauguration. 

From the Original Post: "...A railroad between continents? A railroad from, say, New York City all the way across the Atlantic to France? Now, THAT would be a bridge!..."

Also FTA:"...Now, we used to have the best infrastructure in the world here in America. We’re the country that built the Intercontinental Railroad, the Interstate Highway System. We built the Hoover Dam. We built the Grand Central Station..."

So I was wondering if this might be a new tack for his administration to take as a part of the Jobs Bill proposal?

NOTE: My comments from Original Post: "...I thought this was an interesting and unusual article and take on our President from what is usually thought to be a newspaper that is or has been considered in his 'camp'.  The whole article is an interesting reading of who/how our President seems to view history, and railroads. He being a major force behind the current  HSR Train movement in this Country..."

   I never mentioned the word 'Gaffe" in my post, although it was a topic in the linked article. I was curious to see if we could have a discussion on a level that skirted the obviously divisiveness of the current politics.  while steering away from overtly ad hominem attacks.

  With the current environment and politics in Mexico and along the border I would guess that an Intercontinental Railroad would be more or less out of the question right now, but would it ultimately be a good idea?

 

Thanks!

[Anonymous]

samfp1943

With the current environment and politics in Mexico and along the border I would guess that an Intercontinental Railroad would be more or less out of the question right now, but would it ultimately be a good idea?

 

No....

 

 

[jwhitten]

Paul_D_North_Jr

 

mudchicken:

  He got it from his dim bulb Transportation Secretary who said the same thing in front of a room full of railroaders in Minneapolis on Monday (including me). 

  I wasn't sure I was hearing that right - some noise or static or something over where I was just then  - but I can't disagree, and there were some other gaffes or infelicitous phrases in there as well.  The speechwriters need to be careful about the successive alliteration - it can lead astray the unwary. 

 

Besides, as our Canadian friends could remind us - we may have had transcontinental tracks in 1869, but we still don't have a transcontinental company, while they practically have 2 (depends on how you view CP).

- Paul North.   

 

Proabably not. I doubt many of the people listening know the difference either. Sorta makes you wonder though about Interstate Highways H1, H2 and H3 in Hawaii...

 

John

[Murphy Siding]

     Why?

     Why are we settling for intercontinental railroads?  Let's go for broke-  intergalactic railroads is where the action is.




....................Hal, you've left the switch open..............

[Anonymous]

Murphy Siding

Why?  Why are we settling for intercontinental railroads?  Let's go for broke-  intergalactic railroads is where the action is.

Only if they have intergalactic RDC's.....................

 

 

[RRKen]

Dumbest thread I have read here. 

[Anonymous]

Let's not be too hard on Beloved Leader; remember that great radio program of the 40's and 50's - 

"As a bullet seeks its target, shining rails in every part of our great country are aimed at Grand Central Station, heart of the nation's greatest city. Drawn by the magnetic force of the fantastic metropolis, day and night great trains rush toward the Hudson River, sweep down its eastern bank for 140 miles, flash briefly by the long red row of tenement houses south of 125th Street, dive with a roar into the two-and-one-half-mile tunnel which burrows beneath the glitter and swank of Park Avenue, and then ... (sound effect of a train pulling into the station) ... Grand Central Station! Crossroads of a million private lives! Gigantic stage on which are played a thousand dramas daily!"

I suspect that few people really know what's a station or what's a terminal.  Or a Republic or a democracy!

[tatans]

Would the proper word be "continental" ?  Paul North, I think said it right about the railways in Canadaland.

[Paul of Covington]

                sampf:

                " I was curious to see if we could have a discussion on a level that skirted the obviously divisiveness of the current politics."

_______________

       You have an odd sense of humor.

[LNER4472]

The only things I have to add to the discussion:

*If the same gaffes had been made by George W. Bush, Bob Dole, or Dan Quayle, we'd probably be hearing about it non-stop in the news media and the late-night talk show monologues for weeks.  (Joe Biden would attract some mockery as well, but few would have ever noticed the remarks.)

*Obama's direct implication, by association, was that "this country"--i.e. government, more specifically "big government" of the "New Deal/Great Society" ilk--built "Grand Central Station."  Not only was Grand Central Terminal built by private corporations (more specifically, a company and its subsidiaries run by what Obama's "type" would no doubt call "evil capitalist robber barons"), but Grand Central Terminal IS STILL OWNED by private companies and LEASED TO Metro-North, according to the books I have to refer to here.

[mudchicken]

PDN: Between the lighting show, the audio hum and the last minute switch to an earlier timeslot, the whole thing was a bit "off". (a certain TRAINS staffer behind you and to your left had a quizical look and a cocked head as that unfolded)

[greyhounds]

It really doesn't bother me that President Obama misspoke and called the transcontinental railroad the intercontinental railroad.

What bothers me is that he and his like minded folks keep saying that we're allowing China to build the best trains in the world.  That is not true and the fact that he and others actually believe that is greatly disturbing.

Railroads are an economic entity that exist to create wealth.  With only a couple of exceptions, high speed passenger rail has been proven to be a wealth destroyer.   It's particularly bad in China.  That country's rail administrators have poured money into a rat hole to create a dedicated high speed passenger train network.  This has made the life of the average Chinese person worse, not better.  Our president wants to do the same thing here.   And he has no understanding of just why he could be wrong.  That's very troubling to me.

Here's some information on high speed passenger rail in China.   I've posted this before, but it apparently needs frequent repetition

http://www.transportation.northwestern.edu/docs/2010/2010.05.25.Li_Flyer.pdf

 

[wanswheel]

Some Utahns may doubt the president misspoke. 

(Amtrak) Pioneer Restoration Organization....Ogden City, situated on the west face of Wasatch Mountains, has a unique story: Initially a mountain man trading center, Ogden grew rapidly after becoming "The Depot" at the junction of the intercontinental railroad.

http://www.pioneertrain.com/index_files/Page435.htm

Choose Ogden River Inn for your Ogden area lodging you won't be disappointed! ...Ogden is full of history that dates back to the intercontinental railroad when the town really started to boom.

http://www.ogdenriverinn.com/

The Daughters of the Utah Pioneers Museum sits at 300 North Main Street...A particularly interesting section of the museum is the Railroad Room, which has a large original painting of the driving of the Golden Spike, which marked the completion of the intercontinental railroad in 1869.

http://www.utah.com/mormon/salt_lake.htm

The Art Institute of Salt Lake City is conveniently located right off I-15 in Draper, Utah, roughly 16 miles south of Downtown Salt Lake City. Known as "Crossroads of the West" for its central geography of the western United States and the fact that the first intercontinental railroad went through the Salt Lake Valley, Salt Lake City is the most populous city in the State of Utah and is the State's political, economic and cultural center.

http://www.artinstitutes.edu/salt-lake-city/about/salt-lake-city-utah.aspx

Date of photograph: May 10, 1869; Subject: Railroads; Other Subject: Intercontinental Railroad.

http://content.lib.utah.edu/u?/USHS_Class,9456

http://mwdl.org/index.php/browse/index/1?sortId=6&recordsPage=2317

Mike

[greyhounds]

Several "wrongs" don't make a "right".

[BaltACD]

Let's just face the facts that there is no will or resolve to do anything right anymore.

The Interstate system is falling apart from deferred maintenance, the airlines can't make money just hauling passengers and paying tip money for landing rights at terminals and not paying for the ATC system.  So why should there be a viable high speed interstate passenger network.

Maybe we can afford the Pony Express - except for the exhaust emission droppings.

[Deggesty]

Quoting Wanswheel: "Some Utahns may doubt the president misspoke."

Mike, your mentioning Utahns' error reminds me of another error, which I see from time to time--some have said that the UP and CP joined rails at Promontory Point, whereas they were officially joined at Promontory Summit (sometimes called, simply, "Promontory").

There is a Promontory Point, but it is a few miles south of Promontory Summit, right on the shore of the Great Salt Lake, and the Lucin Cutoff was constructed through this point.

Sometimes, even people living in northern Utah err in naming the site of the Golden Spike.

[zugmann]

BaltACD

Let's just face the facts that there is no will or resolve to do anything right anymore.

The Interstate system is falling apart from deferred maintenance, the airlines can't make money just hauling passengers and paying tip money for landing rights at terminals and not paying for the ATC system.  So why should there be a viable high speed interstate passenger network.

Maybe we can afford the Pony Express - except for the exhaust emission droppings.

 

Building new stuff is sexy.  Maintaining old stuff is just plain boring.  Politicians don't get photos in the paper for patching a highway.  They get them for building a new bridge.

[greyhounds]

BaltACD

Let's just face the facts that there is no will or resolve to do anything right anymore.

The Interstate system is falling apart from deferred maintenance, the airlines can't make money just hauling passengers and paying tip money for landing rights at terminals and not paying for the ATC system.  So why should there be a viable high speed interstate passenger network.

Maybe we can afford the Pony Express - except for the exhaust emission droppings.

Oh, I'm going to disagree.

Good things are getting done.  There's a new export grain elevator in Washington, the first new one in decades;  the UP is going to add a track to the Fremont Cutoff;  CSX built a huge intermodal hub in Ohio that is changing the way they handle IM traffic;  NS did the "Heartland Corridor";  BNSF fought through a second track in Abo Canyon;  CN is increasing capacity on the old "J",  and EMD is opening a new manufacturing facility under Caterpillar ownership. .

Things that make economic sense are getting done.

 

[trainboyH16-44]

greyhounds

 

BaltACD:

 

Let's just face the facts that there is no will or resolve to do anything right anymore.

The Interstate system is falling apart from deferred maintenance, the airlines can't make money just hauling passengers and paying tip money for landing rights at terminals and not paying for the ATC system.  So why should there be a viable high speed interstate passenger network.

Maybe we can afford the Pony Express - except for the exhaust emission droppings.

 

 

Oh, I'm going to disagree.

Good things are getting done.  There's a new export grain elevator in Washington, the first new one in decades;  the UP is going to add a track to the Fremont Cutoff;  CSX built a huge intermodal hub in Ohio that is changing the way they handle IM traffic;  NS did the "Heartland Corridor";  BNSF fought through a second track in Abo Canyon;  CN is increasing capacity on the old "J",  and EMD is opening a new manufacturing facility under Caterpillar ownership. .

Things that make economic sense are getting done.

Thing is, all those are private (not to mention, non-passenger) projects. Is there a single passenger project, then, that makes economic sense, if the airlines are getting subsidized out the$1***$2and the highways are falling into disrepair?

[Paul of Covington]

   zugmann:

"Building new stuff is sexy.  Maintaining old stuff is just plain boring.  Politicians don't get photos in the paper for patching a highway.  They get them for building a new bridge."

    Amen!      This is a fact that has bugged me for years.

[zardoz]

LNER4472

*If the same gaffes had been made by George W. Bush, Bob Dole, or Dan Quayle, we'd probably be hearing about it non-stop in the news media and the late-night talk show monologues for weeks.  (Joe Biden would attract some mockery as well, but few would have ever noticed the remarks.)

Perhaps that is because most of what Obama says is articulate and intelligent (I'm not refering to policies or politics, just the man himself). Those other buffoons you mentioned made themselves sound stupid almost every time they opened their pie hole.

[zardoz]

Murphy Siding

 Why are we settling for intercontinental railroads?  Let's go for broke-  intergalactic railroads is where the action is.

...no place to tamp the ballast, and the air lines would keep freezing, and the mileage pay for the train crews would be exorbitant (I wonder how much the basic day would be for a job that was bullettened to run 3.5 lightyears), the spacesuits would probably not fit through the engine doors......  

[BaltACD]

Historically the USA has been a 'We can do it' society.  Ever since we got men on the Moon, we have become a society that has put on a blindfold when it comes to the future - the future for public works projects, the future for technological challenges, the future for a enhanced standard of living.

The future is risk - as a society we have become so risk averse we are trying to revert to the bad old days rather than accept the risks of challenging for a better future.  We have stopped dreaming and working toward a better future.

Today's financial markets, as engendered by the Dot.Com Bubble as well as the Housing Bubble expect to have a almost immediate profit on any investment - investing in something where the pay back, and potentially profit, is in the future is viewed to be a bad risk and to be avoided.

Had the 19th Century men who built the ancestors of today's carriers had the mindset the our society has today - those railroads would never have been built - there is too much risk of failure.  In reality probably 90% of the railroad corporations that have ever been incorporated foundered on the financial rocks - but other men with vision picked up the pieces and worked with them, sometimes failing and some times succeeding and many of those failures were picked up by other men with different visions to turn those failures into success - and on and on and on....

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

zardoz

Murphy Siding:   Why are we settling for intercontinental railroads?  Let's go for broke-  intergalactic railroads is where the action is.

...no place to tamp the ballast, and the air lines would keep freezing, and the mileage pay for the train crews would be exorbitant (I wonder how much the basic day would be for a job that was bullettened to run 3.5 lightyears), the spacesuits would probably not fit through the engine doors......  

  Thermal contraction of the rails would make the distance shorter, though; but it would be "dark" territory, so can't go there anyway until PTC is up and running (could the light beams even catch up to the train ?  see Steven Wright joke, 12th one down, at: http://www.wright-house.com/steven-wright/steven-wright-Kn.html ); and the griping about the 'away' layover at the far end terminal would about kill ya  . . .   

- Paul North. 

[Dragoman]

greyhounds

...

Railroads are an economic entity that exist to create wealth. 

...

As long as a business is looked upon as only "an economic entity that exist to create wealth", and the measure of its success is, therefore, only the amount of wealth it has created, then there is an opening for the "evil capitalist robber barons" (quoted from LNER4472's post) to do whatever it takes to create that wealth, regardless of the impact on the employees, customers, community, or world at large. 

Occupational safety rules, child-labor laws, anti-pollution regs, antitrust laws, are all examples of restrictions on a business entity's ability to create wealth.  Railroads, as common-carriers operating in a highly-regulated environment, have more than most.  But these restrictions on wealth-creation were deemed to be in the public interest.  One can argue individual cases, but in general I believe most would agree that some reference to public interest (above & beyond the public's interest in wealth creation) is a good thing.

Some major historical infrastructure projects (such as Grand Central Terminal) were done by private enterprise alone.  Some (such as the Transcontinental Railroad, Interstate Highway System, most modern airports and ports) were accomplished by, or with the active encouragement of, government, acting in the public interest.

And yes, Grand Central was buit by, and still owned by, private interests.  But I posit that its continued existence at all is due to public interest considerations above and beyond "wealth creation" -- otherwise it would have suffered the much more profitable fate of the Pennsylvania Station/Madison Square Garden property.

I believe what the President was trying to allude to was, as BaltACD so eloquently describes above, our society's apparently truncated perspective on the risk-vs.-reward analysis.

[Anonymous]

I don’t think the present society has lost the can-do spirit at all.  What is different today is an investment risk that is perceived to be greater than at almost any time in our history. 

 

And that risk / reward equation today has a lot to do with what is going on in the first post of this thread (aside from the slight misspeak about transcontinental versus intercontinental).

 

We have laws to protect us from robber barons.  What is needed is to stop telling the risk takers that their success is somehow unfair to the rest of us.    

[jclass]

I'm more interested in sound financing. It appears this bridge which now carries both I-75 and I-71 traffic has not been a toll bridge.  One of the links below states that much of the traffic the bridge handles (the traffic that has been largely responsible for its being "overused") is local suburban traffic that the bridge spawned once it had been built.  Had a traffic toll been charged over its 48 year life to reflect the bridge's value, and recover the bridge's cost, maintenance, and eventual replacement, wouldn't over-concern about it today be a non-issue?  (I am assuming in this example that the tolls generated would not be directed to other uses).

http://www.brentspence.com/

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/nkypolitics/2011/09/26/increased-spending-not-the-answer-for-brent-spence-davis-says/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brent_Spence_Bridge

http://www.wlwt.com/r/28306902/detail.html

 

[wanswheel]

Johnny, a distinction is made between Promontory Point and Promontory Summit, though not very clearly, in this excerpt from The Great Railroad Wedding - Driving the Last Spike, in The Pacific Tourist Illustrated Trans-Continental Guide (1877) . Perhaps Promontory Point had become the established dateline for eastern newspapers. -- Mike

Waiting for some time in impatience, at last came this message from Promontory Point at 2.27 P.M.:"Almost ready. Hats off; prayer is being offered."

A silence for the prayer ensued; at 2.40 P.M., the bell tapped again, and the officer at Promontory said, "We have got done praying; the spike is about to be presented."

Chicago replied: ''We understand; all are ready in the East."

From Promontory Point. "All ready now; the spike will soon be driven. The signal will be three dots for the commencement of the blows."

For a moment the instrument was silent, and then the hammer of the magnet tapped the bell, one, two, three, the signal. Another pause of a few seconds, and the lightning came flashing eastward, 2,400 miles to Washington; and the blows of the hammer on the spike were repeated instantly in telegraphic accents upon the bell of the Capitol. At 2.47 P. M., Promontory Point gave the signal, "Done;" and the great American Continent was successfully spanned.  Immediately thereafter, flashed over the line, the following official announcement to the Associated Press:

Promontory Summit, Utah, May 10.-THE LAST RAIL IS LAID! THE LAST SPIKE IS DRIVEN! THE PACIFIC RAILROAD IS COMPLETED! The point of Junction is 1,086 miles west of the Missouri River, and 690 miles east of Sacramento City.

 Leland Stanford, Central Pacific Railroad.

T. C. Durant, Sidney Dillon, John Duff, Union Pacific Railroad.

Such were the telegraphic incidents that attended the completion of the greatest work of the age, during these few expectant moments, the scene itself at Promontory Point was very impressive.

http://books.google.com/books?id=ykw_klojDV4C&pg=PA164

[greyhounds]

Dragoman

 

greyhounds:

 

...

Railroads are an economic entity that exist to create wealth. 

...

 

 

As long as a business is looked upon as only "an economic entity that exist to create wealth", and the measure of its success is, therefore, only the amount of wealth it has created, then there is an opening for the "evil capitalist robber barons" (quoted from LNER4472's post) to do whatever it takes to create that wealth, regardless of the impact on the employees, customers, community, or world at large. 

Occupational safety rules, child-labor laws, anti-pollution regs, antitrust laws, are all examples of restrictions on a business entity's ability to create wealth.  Railroads, as common-carriers operating in a highly-regulated environment, have more than most.  But these restrictions on wealth-creation were deemed to be in the public interest.  One can argue individual cases, but in general I believe most would agree that some reference to public interest (above & beyond the public's interest in wealth creation) is a good thing.

Some major historical infrastructure projects (such as Grand Central Terminal) were done by private enterprise alone.  Some (such as the Transcontinental Railroad, Interstate Highway System, most modern airports and ports) were accomplished by, or with the active encouragement of, government, acting in the public interest.

And yes, Grand Central was buit by, and still owned by, private interests.  But I posit that its continued existence at all is due to public interest considerations above and beyond "wealth creation" -- otherwise it would have suffered the much more profitable fate of the Pennsylvania Station/Madison Square Garden property.

I believe what the President was trying to allude to was, as BaltACD so eloquently describes above, our society's apparently truncated perspective on the risk-vs.-reward analysis.

"Evil Capitalist Robber Barons"?  "Child Labor Laws"? 

Well, to start out with, nobody is promoting the repeal of things such as child labor laws.  The government may have put the finish to child labor with a piece of paper called a law.  But the law was made possible by the creation of enough wealth in a nation/society so that there was no longer a need for children to labor.  Their parents could earn enough to support the family.  The parents could earn enough because their labor productivity was increased by the use of capital.  Without this productivity increase preventing child labor by passing a law would have caused starvation.  It's the skillful use of a combination of labor, capital, raw materials and knowledge that creates the wealth of a nation.  In other words, commerce creates the wealth we need to live better.

In any event, those of you who are inclined to believe the hateful rhetoric of "Evil Capitalist Robber Barons" would do very well to read "The Myth of the Robber Barons" by Burton W. Folsom Jr.  It's available on Amazon for $9.95.  Folsom is another one of the pesky history professors.

The book has seven chapters.  Six of the chapters deal with individual so-called "Robber Barons".  Three of those six chapters deal with railroad related "Robber Barons."  Vanderbilt, Hill, and Scranton.  (Scranton made the iron rails.)  The chapter on Vanderbilt focuses on his steamship days.  One chapter is on a particular American Hero of mine, John D. Rockefeller, who made it possible for the average American to have decent light at night.  (He also established the first standards for medical education in the US.  He did that by giving money to medical schools that would agree to meet standards patterned after Johns Hopkins)

The seventh chapter is a critic of popular historical treatment of the so-called "Robber Barons"   Folsom  takes issue with the canned version of economic history.  He cites Thomas Bailey in the book "The American Pageant"  who wrote: "Though ill-educated, ungrammatical, coarse and ruthless, he (Vanderbilt) was clear-visioned.  Offering superior railway service at lower rates, he amassed a fortune of $100 million."

Folsom then asks, "If Vanderbilt was being 'ruthless', just who was he being 'ruthless' to by offering superior railway service at lower rates.?"  Vanderbilt may have been ill-educated, ungrammatical and coarse, but he knew how to run a transportation business and the general public gained wealth because of it.    They got superior service at a lower cost using Vanderbilt's New York Central System.  

Look, railroading is commerce.  And like it or not commerce is what creates the wealth of any nation.  Railroad employees and railroad investors can do things such as enjoy a good retirement, send their children to college, get good health care, etc. because the railroad creates the wealth needed to do those things.  (The railroad is inclusive of employees and investors.  They each earn their share of the created wealth.  They certainly squabble over who gets how much of the created wealth.  And they always will.)  Things such as retirement, college and health care cost money (wealth) and that wealth has to be constantly created so we can enjoy those things.

The railroads' customers also gain wealth from the railroad.  Why do you think a North Dakota farmer would ship his/her grain out of town on the BNSF or the CP?  It's because it increases his/her wealth.  There would be no other reason to do it.  They're not going to pay to ship the grain because it makes them poorer.

There is no good reason for a railroad other than the creation of  wealth.  Unless you're President Obama who thinks it's just "Peachy Keen" to build a high speed dedicated passenger train network that will inevitably destroy wealth in our nation. And it will destroy wealth for all of us.  I understand that.  If you don't understand that, I can only hope you begin your journey to understanding by reading  "The Myth of the Robber Barons" and begin to think about it.

 

[Anonymous]

greyhounds

 

"Evil Capitalist Robber Barons"?  "Child Labor Laws"? 

Well, to start out with, nobody is promoting the repeal of things such as child labor laws.  The government may have put the finish to child labor with a piece of paper called a law.  But the law was made possible by the creation of enough wealth in a nation/society so that there was no longer a need for children to labor.  Their parents could earn enough to support the family.  The parents could earn enough because their labor productivity was increased by the use of capital.  Without this productivity increase preventing child labor by passing a law would have caused starvation. 

 

There is no good reason for a railroad other than the creation of  wealth.  Unless you're President Obama who thinks it's just "Peachy Keen" to build a high speed dedicated passenger train network that will inevitably destroy wealth in our nation. And it will destroy wealth for all of us.  I understand that.  If you don't understand that, I can only hope you begin your journey to understanding by reading  "The Myth of the Robber Barons" and begin to think about it.

 

Greyhounds,

 

Your point about capitalism creating the wealth to end child labor is an excellent counterpoint to the canned argument that child labor was one of the examples of the inherent evils of capitalism. 

 

Speaking of HSR funding, here is a link describing the full national system of HRS that is contemplated for in the U.S.  http://www.ushsr.com/ushsrmap.html

 

It says that the cost would be ½ trillion dollars.  That seems like a lot of money, but could we really even build a national system for that figure?  We just finished spending about one-trillion dollars, and yet amazingly, there is no obvious evidence of what we bought with it.  According to the HSR proponents, that money could have bought a national HSR system twice the size of the most ambitious national system on the table today.  That sure would have made us the envy of our friends in Europe.