There have been several comments made to me about my always telling questioners to check books and libraries and historical societies. I am a big supporter of books, reading, and libraries (and librarians) because this is the core of researched, saved, and presented materials. But it goes further than that. Here we can give and get anwers...many answers, conflicting answers, confusing answers, incomplete answers, right answers and wrong answers. And I'm not putting anybody who gives an answer down, Memories of old timers are priceless but often altered by time. I know almost a dozen authors personally, have met many others. I know they do spend a lot of excruciating time researching and verifying facts and comments and carefully present what they have found.
Some of these authors are members of various railroad historical societies and these societies are often publishers of railroad histories...some in book form some in bulletin or newsletter/magazine form. Some of the authors are scholars or professors, others are professional railroaders. One point I'd like to make is that by either purchaseing thier books or using them in libraries, are ways to reward them for the work they've put into the projects. Another is that it is not really fair to them to have someone else report to you what they have written.
There are many books written for and by railfans while there are tons of books also written for and by professional railroaders available to railfans.
One of the fun things I have found in finding answers in books is that other parts of the answer are there or there are other questions raised which need further exporation. You might find a lead to a railroad or branch line you never knew existed but passed right through your living room a hundred years ago. Or that your great grand uncle on your wife's mother's side of the family chartererd or built or was somehow involved in some part of railroad history or that what you thought was Z was really A and that L,M, and N had nothing to do with anything. Answers don't stop at the answer but keep your interest going or even diverted and expanded. It's easy to toss an answer into the pot here, just type in the words. But there are usually many and often conflicting answers, sometimes incomplete answers. Historians and writers of books probably have better answers, researched and confirmed, for most questions. Getting into a library and books could open up whole new avenues of interests for you while answering your question. I just don't believe books, authors, and libraries and historical societies, should be ignored or overlooked.
And in addition to books and other published materials by historical societies, there are professional publications. And don't overlook the fan magazines. Trains goes back to 1941, the "Railroad" part of RailFan goes back to at least 1900, and so many others are regional or otherwise hve come and gone over the years.
I expouse the use of libraries and the reading of books and other published materials not because I take answering questions lightly but that I take them serious enough to want to assure the questioner the right, complete, and accurate answer while also acknowledging the hard work authors and editors have put into their publications so that the answers are available.
A little long winded, but I got the feeling from some posts that I was taking the easy way out or chastising those who ask questions, neither of which is true. There are a lot of answers out there and a lot more questions, too. But the correct and complete answers can be found for the looking. I take these pages as a stepping stone to the answers and not the stopping block.
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Well said, Henry. Many of the books of yesteryear will never likely be digitized and posted on the net. Much factual information can be gleaned from the sources you cited while even supposedly reliable sources on the net can often be just plain wrong or misinformed. Wikipedia comes to mind. Most of their articles are well researched, but every now and then one is wrong perhaps because the author was misinformed about the subject. Not knocking Wikipedia. Overall, they do a pretty fine job.
Back to the books. Most of the authors in the 'Dark Ages' (meaning the fifties when I was in high school) were true journalists, and recorded/reported things as they actually were Very seldom did they taint books or newspapers with the bias we see today.
I am by no means an expert on a great many topics, but the egregious errors I see in today's reporting indicate those people were sleeping through journalism class and were given a passing grade for a reasnon known only to their instructor.
I'm a retired aircraft mechanic of thirty some years experience, and it absolutely appalls me to read some of the misinformed comments reporters make when they pen a story about an aircraft accident. I'm not an expert on all things railroad; just a fan who could probably learn a lot from the real railroaders, but it pains me to see some of the untruths they expect the general public to believe.
I'm also glad the major media has dropped coverage of the Nevada accident. While their initial report may be of importance to the public, their continuing speculation becomes a real PITA. I prefer to wait for the NTSB reports factual information before I make up my mind.
Sorry for the rant. It's just the way I feel. Trip to the library for facts anyone?
Norm
Thank you, Norm. I welcome all rants on this one...I should actually retitle it A RANT ON READING or something to that effect...but I do invite all to Rant and Read on here....
Well said, henry, again. Statements are sometimes made, even by pretty knowledgeable folks, that simply have no basis, merely because that person never bothered to look at a variety of sources relevant, whether books, scholarly or popular articles or oral accounts by people who lived through the event in question. We're all guilty or this error, but hopefully we can stand corrected when additional info is placed our way.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
henry6 A RANT ON READING
A RANT ON READING
I know some old railroaders that would take great offense to that.
But the Pennsy guys would love it.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
I know a lot of guys...old and young for that matter...who will take offense at what I've said. But we can't and shouldn't accept anyone's word just because it is said or written. I knew a guy about 40 years ago who did slide programs with 35mm pics he took from books, etc.. He went around to schools and civic groups with a program that was totally without fact execpt that the pictures were of trains...not of the railroads he said they were nor where he claimed the pictures were taken...but he passed along a lot of bad and erroneous information. We couldn't correct him because he took so much offense, so the misiformation went on...
henry6 I know a lot of guys...old and young for that matter...who will take offense at what I've said. But we can't and shouldn't accept anyone's word just because it is said or written. I knew a guy about 40 years ago who did slide programs with 35mm pics he took from books, etc.. He went around to schools and civic groups with a program that was totally without fact execpt that the pictures were of trains...not of the railroads he said they were nor where he claimed the pictures were taken...but he passed along a lot of bad and erroneous information. We couldn't correct him because he took so much offense, so the misiformation went on...
Henry,
I don’t think anybody is disputing the value of books and other reference materials. But you seem to be generalizing that answers to questions posted in the forum should be discounted because they are not fact checked, and that this is an inherent problem with everything said on the forum. However, whether it is here on the forum or in the research library, it is up to the inquirer to convince himself or herself that they have found the truth. There is no guarantee that it is accurate just because it is in a book
You mention the guy with the slides who was peddling false information, and you could not correct him because he would get offended, and if I understand you, you are comparing that to the people giving information on the forum. But if that is so, here we are free to correct anybody who is giving false information, and nobody ever gets offended over it. It is the self-correcting beauty of the forum.
One conundrum that occurs here is the response that is based on fact, but colored with experience.
Too, the phrase "I read it in a book once" usually gets a bad rap - but we may or may not own the book, and it may have been some years since we read it. Thus you're stuck with our recollection. For myself, since I may not remember exactly which book the information came from you're stuck with my best recollection.
The value of a forum such as this is the varied knowledge and experience of the members. My fragment of info may trigger someone who does have a better knowledge to post and perhaps confirm or refute my memory.
And that same wide knowledge base is why one can get a successful answer to "does anybody know......"
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Henry, I agree with the people who say that your sources are valuable. But I also can see where the people asking the questions are coming from--they want some knowledge, and are asking valid questions.
How about, instead of telling them to "go look at XXX by Joe Blow," you phrase your answer as "According to Joe Blow in XXX...", and give them what they're looking for? It's authoritative, it'll refute the false-information peddlers, and not get people too upset with you.
By the way, I've been called out on erroneous information before (it's likely to happen in ten thousand posts or more, and even with decades of specific railroad experience under my belt). But I'm here after knowledge, too, and to share, not pontificate. So go ahead and call me on the bad info, if you have the evidence to back yourself up. But give me the evidence--don't tell me to go read something! I appreciate being set straight.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
My comments here come from a direct comment about my directing people to books and other sources. I explained. I do not condemn nor "dis" any answers here nor anybody's good faith attempts at answering questions. I believe these forums, et al, are chat rooms or blog or whatever the terms are where people seek answers. Some of you think sending someone to a book or historical society or magazine article is heresy, I say it is what these places are all about. I also explain that answers here should lead to more questions. Answers have historically been found in books. Books not in bookstores can be found in libraries. If I am off base, then please tell me so and I will go away.
I should also add that I have been a broadcaster and journalist for almost 50 years. I don't accept any answers I cannot not verify or othewise trust.. I will look for verifiation, collaboration, or seek other ways and resources before accepting just any answer. It is part of my education. I have at least two books which are anecdotal histories, memoirs, of railroading which all history books, employee timetables, and the writers own contemporaries contradict. I have several other books of which contain mistakes, misinformation, omissions, for some reason or another. In some the author will make corrections in later editions, others authors may not even when mistakes are pointed out or admitted.. That is why I encourage searching for more than one answer from more than one source. And I certainly include myself as one of those sources to be questioned. All I want to do is point to other places where answers might be found. And maybe even the correct one.
So the best answer I or anybody can give is to guide a questioner to a good, quality, reliable, and accepted source of information: books in general or specific titles. Books found in book stores and libraries, with fellow railfans, historical societies, etc..
Or if you want the answer really fast, you can go right to the forum and ask your question.
I agree that if one is truly interested in how things work or what has happened, etc. one should go to more resources than just a forum... but often the questions are of an idle nature and not asked because an answer has to be perfection... and often answers are given in the nature of a casual conversation between friends.
Also, one must take the content of books and magazines with some skepticism too...
I have an OLD book on Steam Locomotive Design and Operation where the author explains the purpose of the "Combination Lever" is to obtain power from the main rods to move the valve because with higher boiler pressures the primary parts of the valve gear were unable to move the valve.
I used to read a premier scientific magazine and thought that I knew a lot about many different subjects... Until, that is, they had an article on a subject I knew something about already... Now I know that what I learned from those many varied articles over the years is probably poppycock. (The article about computers was almost comical in its explanation of how a computer works!)
Of course then there is the wisdom of Television cartoonery...
“Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true. Facts, schmacts.” -Homer Simpson ...
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
Henry, I for one do not believe that you are in any way "off base" in your reference to books and libraries, and would certainly feel that the forums would be a little less informative if you were to "go away".
I do believe that some of the comments you are reacting to, may have arisen not from recommending a specific title or line of inquiry, but perhaps from frequently responding to inquiries posted on these forums by recommending library research in general. For a young fan asking a basic question, it is certainly good advice. For someone who has "been around", it's a "duh!", and therefore could smack of suggesting that these forums are somehow not an appropriate place to ask such questions, use these forums as an additional source, and "pick the brains" of all of the smart (and even some of the opinionated!) posters here.
I don't think that is the message you intend to convey, but I can see how some might take it so.
Please don't go away!
I had a large railroad library before moving to Jerusalem in 1996, and kept only a few books that meant the most to me, the CERA North Shore pair, Never on Wednesday, and the the CERA MIlwaukee book. The latter I gave to the USA Embassy's Jerusalem Library because it documents the major growth of an important USA city, and I felt this would be unique for Israelis to study. But when I wanted to use the book I found the Librarian had de-accesed it (given it away!) without contacting me. A realliy great loss to me. I agree reading books and checking facts are important. Sometimes I find my own memories conflict with books. There is an excellent soft-cover series on New England railroads, and I bought one of the "Railroad Cities" series, on Concord, New Hampshire, a place I knew well from early childhood through my acoustical consulting days, even to up to working on the Legislature sound system. A photo and caption shows the Suncook Valley shortline steamer as a small 2-6-0, no 1. But I remember the summer of 1945 riding behind a Baldwin 4-6-0, No.2. Possiblyi my memory is not correct, or possibly the regular Suncook Valley loco was in the shop all summer and a borowed 4-6-0 was labled 2 and used.
We all know that there are factual innacuracies in some of the Lucious Beebe books, but that does not stop them from being great books.
Sometimes there are what must be deliberate distortions. All British books on Palestinian Railways say the original Jaffa-Jerusalem line, opened in the late 19th Century and the Mideast's original railroad, was built by the Turks. The Turks gave permission for Joseph Navon, a Jew born and living in Jerusalem, to buld the line, after he spent several years in Istambul to get permisison. He was Sepharic (Meditarian-backround, or "Arab-Jew", term derived from the Hebrew for Spain) who had French university training as an engineer. He married into the German-Jewish Jerusalem Frumkin Family, owners of a Jerusalem Bank, and they opened the doors for him to get financing from Swiss and German banks to build the line. Contractors and engineers from France and Germany, using mostly local Arab labor, actually built the line under Navon's direction. The Turks gave permission, but did not build the line themselves. Joseph Navon was also the first Sephardi to marry an "Ashkenasi" which is of course commonplace today. His old home on Jaffa road was bulldozed to make room for the new light rail line which still has to carry its first pasengers some whole year after the first test run.
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