beaulieu Accidents are usually the result of a lot of little failures.
Accidents are usually the result of a lot of little failures.
Semper Vaporo That "300 ft of skid marks" has to be exageration... Aint that the length of an (American) Football field! Just how fast would that truck have to be traveling to leave skid marks the entire length of a Football field?
That "300 ft of skid marks" has to be exageration... Aint that the length of an (American) Football field! Just how fast would that truck have to be traveling to leave skid marks the entire length of a Football field?
The truck could have been moving 70 mph. That would be 102 feet per second. The truck would be slowing during the skid, so it is hard to say how much time elapsed during the skid. But skidding 300 feet does not seem far fetched. From the damage pattern on the train, I doubt the truck was moving over 15 mph at impact.
Bucyrus The truck could have been moving 70 mph. That would be 102 feet per second. The truck would be slowing during the skid, so it is hard to say how much time elapsed during the skid. But skidding 300 feet does not seem far fetched. [snipped]
Not at all saying that's what happened. But Bucyrus has the proportions about right for that scenario.
- Paul North.
....Until this incident, I had never thought about the double decker passenger cars and how vulnerable any passengers might be on the lower deck with such an accident impact.
Another thought....I wonder how the "old heavy weight" passenger cars might have survived this impact....? Their passenger position, elevation off the rail would have been more desirable when meeting an impact as this was.
And I too agree with the poster that states the train would have been derailed if that truck would have been loaded with rock and traveling at the speed we believe it was at impact.
Quentin
They are looking at the safety record of the company that owned the trucks. It sounds like there are a few red flags emerging form that. I have a feeling we are going to find out something unexpected soon.
I'd opine that an empty truck would be harder to stop under such circumstances than a loaded truck. In fact, if he locked up the brakes, it's possible he actually would have travelled further than if he did a controlled (yet hard) application (or had ABS).
I'm sure cell phones will be a consideration in the investigation. I'd wonder about CB radios, too, even though they haven't been mentioned so far...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
tree68 I'd opine that an empty truck would be harder to stop under such circumstances than a loaded truck. In fact, if he locked up the brakes, it's possible he actually would have travelled further than if he did a controlled (yet hard) application (or had ABS).
That's pretty much a given. Paul's calculations above are very familiar to engineers who had to take that good old dynamics class in their sophomore year. One tidbit that always comes up is that sliding friction is always lower than static friction. For rubber on pavement, the ratio is usually given to be about three to two, that is to say, when the wheels are locked up, one third of the stopping capability has gone away.
This was drummed into me as a teenage by my two racer uncles, who said many times, "be careful on the binders and don't lock the wheels up." I used that a few times to good effect up until antilock brakes, when the strategy changes to "jump on the binders and let the microprocessor keep the wheels from locking up."
That being said, though, simplistic calculations are meant to approximate things like speed and time of events. In general, the best we can do as engineers, absent an event recorder, is establish a highly probable range for things like speed and time, etc. The NTSB folks generally do a pretty good job at sorting things out, at least from the accident reports I have read. (Unfortunately, they are changing their website right now and are demonstrating that the same level of talent and ability hasn't found its way into their web developers.) This one will end up being pretty detailed and interesting to read, when it finally comes out, maybe next year.
http://www.rgj.com/article/20110625/NEWS/110624030/Amtrak+train+crash++fire+and+chaos+in+Nevada
Tires on the truck and maybe other areas of vehicle safety are at question, along with driver error.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
This trucking company runs over 100 trucks a day, sure they get citations.Sure they get reprimanded for having a truck not upto specs.7 violations and one to have truck pulled off the road ??sounds like media hype to me, betya if you stopped 100 automobiles at random you get a much higher violation and suspention rate.betya the FRA cited Amtrak way more on a average of one hundred cars or engines in same time ;-)
"The National Transportation Safety Board said Sunday that the trucking company whose vehicle hit an Amtrak train Friday had been involved in 19 random roadside inspections since 2010, leading to seven violations and one vehicle being taken out of service."
That is 8 out of 19 random inspections with problems. That is a documented violation rate of 42%!! Media hype? You claim the rate for autos is "much higher?" And you are claiming Amtrak's rate is worse? Let's see the data for your claims.
Dutchrailnut This trucking company runs over 100 trucks a day, sure they get citations.Sure they get reprimanded for having a truck not upto specs.7 violations and one to have truck pulled off the road ??sounds like media hype to me, betya if you stopped 100 automobiles at random you get a much higher violation and suspention rate.betya the FRA cited Amtrak way more on a average of one hundred cars or engines in same time ;-)
That is a good point. The average car driver has no idea how much police scrutiny is focused on large commercial trucks. There was a bad truck-car crash in Eagan, MN about eight years ago. A car full of people pulled into the direct path of a gravel truck traveling at highway speed, and all of the occupants of the car were killed. The highway patrol placed 100% of the blame on the car driver for failing to yield the right of way.
But you could not watch local TV news without getting the clear implication that it was the truck driver’s fault. It was as if the truck was a bully. They found one instance in the driver’s record where the truck driver ran a stop sign. All of the news said the driver “blew” through a stop sign; the clear implication being that the driver intentionally ran a stop sign at substantial speed. Whatever the driver did to get that charge had nothing whatsoever to do with the fatal crash that the news media were linking it to.
This is really a shocking event. My trip on the Zephyr was with my (late) wife, and it was just after Diana had been killed in a car crash. We have all lost some innocence. I send prayers to the families and communities who have been hurt by this...
Yahoo answers says 121 Americans die in automobile accidents every day. Amtrak did not need a blow to its reputation or morale, not to mention fleet. Railroads should be a safe place to travel and work, and this crash will have a permanent impact.
"Make no little plans; they have no magic to stir men's blood." Daniel Burnham
greyhounds I smell a cell phone.
I smell a cell phone.
I really think you may be on to something. But...
The remote location and the time of day of this accident reminds me of a semi/train crash back in the eighties. It happened on the Trans-Canada Highway north of Bassano, AB. A trucker on a regular run west from Winnipeg, MB drove into the side of a CPR freight on the remnant of the Irricana Sub. By this time trains on that line were rare.. The investigation found that while the driver was not asleep, nor impaired, he had driven over that crossing so many times with no train on it that he literally didn't see the train this time. I forget what the scientific name for the phenomena he experienced was called.
Although the operational policies of the company that owned the trailer were not the cause of this specific accident, they did get called into question and changes had to be made. I don't remember what the fallout from that was.
Bruce
So shovel the coal, let this rattler roll.
"A Train is a Place Going Somewhere" CP Rail Public Timetable
"O. S. Irricana"
. . . __ . ______
Bucyrus Dutchrailnut: This trucking company runs over 100 trucks a day, sure they get citations.Sure they get reprimanded for having a truck not upto specs.7 violations and one to have truck pulled off the road ??sounds like media hype to me, betya if you stopped 100 automobiles at random you get a much higher violation and suspention rate.betya the FRA cited Amtrak way more on a average of one hundred cars or engines in same time ;-) That is a good point. The average car driver has no idea how much police scrutiny is focused on large commercial trucks. ...
Dutchrailnut: This trucking company runs over 100 trucks a day, sure they get citations.Sure they get reprimanded for having a truck not upto specs.7 violations and one to have truck pulled off the road ??sounds like media hype to me, betya if you stopped 100 automobiles at random you get a much higher violation and suspention rate.betya the FRA cited Amtrak way more on a average of one hundred cars or engines in same time ;-)
It is quite true that common carrier vehicles (truck, bus, commercial aircraft) get much more scrutiny than the average car. And rightly so, IMHO, given a truck's much higher potential for causing death & destruction (due to mass/weight, time on the road, etc.).
But two thoughts to consider:
(1) A commercial truck operator is generally under much greater competitive pressures to keep the equipment on the road, in spite of possible problems;
(2) Given the fact of the "increased police scrutiny", and the fact that everyone knows of the "increased police scrutiny", to have 8 trucks cited out of 19 checked, looks like more than a statistical anomaly.
....Regarding the truck sliding it's wheels for 300 plus ft. and whether ABS was present or if it was empty or loaded.....if {and in this case it seems to be true}, the vehicle was traveling beyond a speed that any combination of braking force was inadequate to pull down all that speeding energy to a stop to prevent the collision.
The Engineer of the train, by sight....could see the about to happen crash....was eminent. {judging from the truck's closing speed}. According to his comments on the situation.
Dragoman Bucyrus: Dutchrailnut: This trucking company runs over 100 trucks a day, sure they get citations.Sure they get reprimanded for having a truck not upto specs.7 violations and one to have truck pulled off the road ??sounds like media hype to me, betya if you stopped 100 automobiles at random you get a much higher violation and suspention rate.betya the FRA cited Amtrak way more on a average of one hundred cars or engines in same time ;-) That is a good point. The average car driver has no idea how much police scrutiny is focused on large commercial trucks. ... It is quite true that common carrier vehicles (truck, bus, commercial aircraft) get much more scrutiny than the average car. And rightly so, IMHO, given a truck's much higher potential for causing death & destruction (due to mass/weight, time on the road, etc.). But two thoughts to consider: (1) A commercial truck operator is generally under much greater competitive pressures to keep the equipment on the road, in spite of possible problems; (2) Given the fact of the "increased police scrutiny", and the fact that everyone knows of the "increased police scrutiny", to have 8 trucks cited out of 19 checked, looks like more than a statistical anomaly.
Bucyrus: Dutchrailnut: This trucking company runs over 100 trucks a day, sure they get citations.Sure they get reprimanded for having a truck not upto specs.7 violations and one to have truck pulled off the road ??sounds like media hype to me, betya if you stopped 100 automobiles at random you get a much higher violation and suspention rate.betya the FRA cited Amtrak way more on a average of one hundred cars or engines in same time ;-) That is a good point. The average car driver has no idea how much police scrutiny is focused on large commercial trucks. ...
It may be that this company had an unusually bad record of safety violations, and it might be that the driver behavior that led to this crash is somehow related to that record. But I don’t think any conclusions can be drawn based on the fact that the company was ticketed 8 times in 19 random inspections. My only point is that that fact sounds bad to people who are only familiar with the police scrutiny of the equipment on their private automobile, and probably sounds bad to the news media reporting the event.
The reality is that there are dozens and dozens of technical issues that a commercial truck can be in violation of. As a driver, you hope you don’t get pulled over, but if you do, a ticket for something is almost to be expected. Maybe Ed Benton can chime in on this.
My best guess is that this crash was caused by driver distraction. The driver is going down a wide-open road at very high speed. There are no traffic lights out there that would habituate a driver to be on the lookout for conflicts. All he is concerned about is keeping the truck on the road, and that does not take a lot of attention. He dismissed the grade crossing and was caught off guard by the train. I suspect that the biggest factor in the driver’s distraction was the fact that he was leading a convoy.
The fact that he hit the train against that 45-degree angle would have added considerably to the impact force of the collision. So, after learning of that angle, I am lowering my estimate of impact speed back down to 15 mph.
I don't know what the train density is on that line, but unless it's in the hundreds per day, statistically you're more likely to not see a train at that crossing.
Multiple passages over a crossing (as it sounds like may have been the case there) without a train in sight might tend to lull one into a level of confidence that you're not going to see a train there. Add any distraction and you've got a high potential for a problem when one does show up.
As for the inspections - it does depend on what the violations are. Anyone who's been in the military knows that if the commander does a white glove inspection and wants to find something, he will, no matter how squared away your area may be.
The standard joke anymore when you get pulled over is your going to get a ticket from anything from your Sheets being the WRONG color to frating at the wrong time. When the States get low on funds they go after OTR trucks for cash by boosting the amount they charge us. The DOT also refuses to when we are involved in any accident make the all parties take a Drug test for them also. Why because then it would show that the people that are doing the drugs and are causing the Problems are NOT the OTR drivers that it is causing the problems.
We have Compaines that want tighter and tighter Schedulaes and then still refuse to pay Detention time to the Drivers. Also the FMCSA has rammed thru so many things against us from doing our jobs properly and the people of the USA still think we are the enemy. In the last 10 years alone the FMCSA regulations have been expanded by close to 15000 and then the HOS regulations have benn rewritten 3 times. Yet we have lowered the Accident rates all the time.
While I don't like to bad mouth cops, I can state from personal experience that when the HPD Truck Enforcement Division is low on tickets, they stage a Safety Raid at Gate 8 at the Port.
These guys have rigged out Dodge Ram 1500s, loaded with all kinds of neat "cop" stuff, including portable scales.
The first 10 to 15 trucks out of the dock are going to get a ticket, period.
Anything from a loose tie down strap to chocks not strapped in to air brakes to tread depth to tire inflation to every light on the truck and trailer working to the paperwork is gone over.
I mean they line them up on Clinton Drive and work them over top to bottom.
Once the word goes out, every truck on the north side of the channel either sits still or sneaks out gate 5 about a mile down the road.
The cops usually corral the trucks up on either the 15th or the last week in the month.
I mean they go full bore on this.
I watched one cop weigh a empty aluminum trailer and cite the driver because the trailer weighed more than his weight sticker said by 50 lbs. or so.
I know it sound incredulous but true, and from the looks of the trailer the extra 50lbs could have well been dirt accumulated on the thing, but the cop made him back it up on his scales and weighed it...the reason I went over and talked to the driver was because I couldn't figure out why the cop was weighing a empty trailer.
Now, that said I know for a fact from some of my cop buddies there is no quota on tickets a cop in HPD has to write, but interdepartmental and divisional promotions are based on the amount of paper work/cases an officer generates so you're free to draw your own conclusion.
The cops here call this "building up their pad"...a term left over from the days they actually had a ticket book and pad of citations, its meaning is filling up their ticket count.
23 17 46 11
I think Ed Blysard has hit the nail squarely on its head.
Everybody wants to make sure the commercial vehicles and drivers on the road are safe. They just don't really know how to go about ensuring that. So we wind up with cops weighing empty trailers and writing tickets because the paperwork differs from reality by 50 pounds. I'm not blaming the cop, he can only do what he's trained and told to do. Too much discression will get him in trouble.
But writing tickets for 50 pounds "off weight" will divert attention from any real problems. Knowing what's important and what's not is key to success in safety or anything else. If the police are focused on trivial matters, they're not focused on important matters. It's not the cops on the street, it's some supervisor up the ladder who is trying to enforce the safety regs, but who doesn't have a clue how to do so.
Here's a trucking industry perspective on the Nevada wreck:
http://fleetowner.com/news/trucking_safety/truck-train-crash-safety-records-0627/?cid=nl_flo_dn&YM_RID=`email`
AgentKid [snipped] The investigation found that while the driver was not asleep, nor impaired, he had driven over that crossing so many times with no train on it that he literally didn't see the train this time. I forget what the scientific name for the phenomena he experienced was called.
Why Seeing (The Unexpected) Is Often Not Believing
Is it possible to see something really, really obvious and not perceive it?
http://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?storyId=137086464
http://www.npr.org/2011/06/20/137086464/why-seeing-the-unexpected-is-often-not-believing
Or the opposite - "situational awareness" - the lack thereof ?
The FMCSA the people that oversee the HOS in teh OTR trucking Industry are SO OBBSESSED with Paper Complanice that they came out with CVSA 2010 that penalizes carriers for stuff that happens after a driver leaves a Shipper with Load Securement now and with lighting on the trailers. Heaven forbid you have a line on your Logbook on the Wrong Spot of the freaking thing they will about hang you anymore.
This is not being done in the name of Safetey one word and one word MONEY. It was done so the FMCSA could hire more people that have NEver been in a truck to look at a log and go thats wrong. Even though according to the RULES they WROTE it is RIGHT. Now they want to get rid of the one thing that has UNCLOGGED the pipelines of the Logistics chain the 34HR Reset since it allows drivers to work more than 70 hours in 8 days. Well NO CRAp you gave them that option you didn't think they were NOT going to use it. Dangling a fresh 70 hours to a OTR driver is like giving a bone to a dog it WILL be GONE FAST.
Yet the DOT and FMCSA still refuse to address the two Biggest issues facing the Trucking Industry as a whole. 1st is UNREALISTIC Delivery Times When they need a solo to run 700 miles a day there is something wrong with that picture. 2nd is lack of Parking. We can not park in alot of the places where they expect us to deliver yet they want us to come in there. Under Jasons Law all Shippers and Recievers would be required to have a holding area large enough for 50% of the trucks they get on a daily basis complete with Bathrooms that are Maintained and food service. Yes there are places that refuse to allow Truck Drivers to have access to Rest rooms.
This is the case with nearly everything the government manages. If there is a problem, an additional paperwork layer will be added to the solution.
One thing about the fact that all of these industries have become so safe due to better roads, rails, aircraft control, equipment... is that the human failures will now be the dominant cause of accidents. Fatigue and distraction will cause most accidents. The company won't care that you fill out more paper nor will they worry too much about the marginally important issues that cause violations (burned out lights, loose equipment). But they have a real conflict with fatigue. If operators operate fewer hours it costs the company real money.
70 hour weeks or 12 hour days are too long for the average worker to remain alert.
Are there some good solutions to this problem?
The problem for train riders is that this kind of violent sudden death potential is always present on trains unless we can eliminate bad drivers.
It points to the issue of an extremely high speed limit on roads, versus the interference of a crossing train. Is it too much to ask traffic to slow down so they are better able to check a grade crossing? The State could have posted a warning to slow down and look for trains, but they did not.
edblysard [snipped] Now, that said I know for a fact from some of my cop buddies there is no quota on tickets a cop in HPD has to write, but interdepartmental and divisional promotions are based on the amount of paper work/cases an officer generates so you're free to draw your own conclusion.
Note that the citations that are being described here are for 'objective' violations - weight, logbooks, stickers, lights, etc., even speeding - all of these can be measured or otherwise easily determined, and don't require any real judgment to write up and support through prosecution. Hence they're more 'bulletproof", regardless of whether you believe they are being issued for safety, 'building up their pad', or enhancing this month's ticket revenue. In contrast, how often do you see tickets being written for moving violations that require the use of judgment, such as rolling through stop signs or red lights, and even more challenging - 'tail-gating' or reckless, aggressive, or erratic driving, such as cutting someone off ? (Note that this is true for '4-wheelers' [autos] too !] Yet which type of violation presents the greatest hazard to the motoring public ? A truck with a tail-light or two burned-out - or a driver that never applies his brakes long enough to illuminate them anyway ?
Paul_D_North_Jr ....such as rolling through stop signs or red lights, and even more challenging - 'tail-gating' or reckless, aggressive, or erratic driving, such as cutting someone off ?
Traffic enforcement in today's world has everything to do with revenue and very little to do with safety.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Bucyrus The problem for train riders is that this kind of violent sudden death potential is always present on trains unless we can eliminate bad drivers. It points to the issue of an extremely high speed limit on roads, versus the interference of a crossing train. Is it too much to ask traffic to slow down so they are better able to check a grade crossing? The State could have posted a warning to slow down and look for trains, but they did not.
Sadly, all too true. Out west, the speeds are very high, since the roads are often in very sparse country. You really think having a sign would have had any impact [no pun] on the driver? Rail crossings accidents are a problem, especially for any passenger trains in terms of a potential for a heavy loss of life. Eliminating bad drivers, even if that were possible, would still leave a hazard, as not all (maybe not even most?) of these accidents involve folks with a bad record. The only real answer is to close and/or separate more crossings where there are trains that move at speed.
Methinks this statement places too much faith in the efficacy of such a sign. In that regard, it's a lot like the theory of some "unreasonably dangerous" products liability suits: since the product allegedly has an inherent risk or danger that can't be eliminated or guarded against, the manufacturer therefore has a duty to warn all consumers about that danger and the likely or possible consequences, and that will immunize everyone involved from any legal or financial responsibility for any adverse consequences from use or accidents, etc. (except the victim, of course). See the first pages of the instructions for any power tool or electrically-powered appliance for good examples of that.
Unstated too is the logic of the hoped-for cause-and-effect here: If the State posts a warning, then all drivers - including the bad ones - will slow down and look for trains. And further, that such slowing down and looking will significantly reduce the risk of collisions - again, including those that would involve bad drivers. I don't like to be negative, but that echoes of expecting criminals to abide by gun-registration and control laws . . .
That said, I agree that such a sign would be a good idea - but the customary round yellow "(R X R)" Advance Warning Signs, Type "W10-1" - see: http://www.rxrsignals.net/Signs/Railroad/Advance/01.PNG - several hundred feet before most crossings are already supposed to be that kind of a sign, as I understand them - see: http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/safety/motorist/railcrossings/warning.htm#advance-warning-signs and http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/htm/2003r1/part8/fig8b-06_longdesc.htm
Ultimately, the better ways to reduce this risk are grade crossing elimination, then weeding out the bad drivers, then maybe a more physical barrier - though I doubt that anything short of a thick masonry, concrete, or steel wall would have prevented at least portions of this truck from impacting the Amtrak train.
See:
http://photos.denverpost.com/mediacenter/2011/06/photos-nevada-amtrak-train-crash/#12
for overhead shots of the accident site.
David K. Wheeler
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