In other words, they will chase the visible railfans away from all strategic railroad areas, in order that Al-Qaida can work undisturbed by observers. Expect more counter-productive security theatre.....
John
While the notice didn't mention any specific plans to derail trains the possibility such an operation might be carried out cannot be ignored. According to a news broadcast that I heard security around all modes of trainsportation is being ramped up due to the death of Osama bin Laden, and this is to be expected. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that the questioning of railfans watching or photographing trains from public property has been recently ramped up.
cx500 In other words, they will chase the visible railfans away from all strategic railroad areas, in order that Al-Qaida can work undisturbed by observers. Expect more counter-productive security theatre..... John
John, respectfully, I don't follow your reasoning. Are railfans currently allowed in 'strategic railroad areas'? If they chase away people with cameras, would they not chase away those without cameras? How would they know whom to chase away at all? And if the news is legitimate, and the plan worth publicizing at all, why would it follow that increasing vigilance and security measures for traveler safety would be counter-productive? Would it be reasonable, in view of the public announcement, that the authorities state they intend to take no more notice or measures, despite the news?
Crandell
sure we got to keep vigilant but, Derailing a train may or may not cause casualties, but then if we worry about train derailments we better watch for profesional truck drivers, they seem to derail way more trains due to stupidity, than El Quaida can do with planning.
Here's another article on the topic:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42922557/ns/world_news-death_of_bin_laden/?gt1=43001
As much as I've criticized the harassing of railfans that follow the rules, I appreciate why railroad brass and train crews have been and will be even more edgy. Add to that; the jerks today that play "chicken" with trains, commit suicide, throw objects at trains, and vandalize them with graffitti have made things so much more difficult for train crews, rail security, and us as railfans. Hard sign of the times.
Amazes me how just a couple of decades ago it was so easy to walk into just about any SCL rail yard in central or western Florida with a camera and usually be greeted with a smile or conversation by train crews.
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
The terrorists learned years ago that they don't need to actually attack us. All they have to do is talk about attacking us and then sit back in the safety of their home country and watch us destroy our own economy in our hysterical over reaction to the supposed threat.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Phoebe Vet The terrorists learned years ago that they don't need to actually attack us. All they have to do is talk about attacking us and then sit back in the safety of their home country and watch us destroy our own economy in our hysterical over reaction to the supposed threat.
Well said. Let's hope they continue that strategy rather than actually killing people.
Wrong,
Amtrak wants the support of the "Railfan".
Amtrak has appealed for your help. They want you to become another set of "Eyes and Ears" to "Observe and Report" to them. Amtrak Police are in charge of Amtrak Security and cooperate with DHS.
Starting in mid April a new program called "Partners for Amtrak Safety and Security" was started. Why not sign up and download your personal numbered ID Card and the 800 number for reporting what you see? Use the Amtrak link below
https://pass.amtrak.com/register.aspx
Don U. TCA 73-5735
TrainManTy Phoebe Vet: The terrorists learned years ago that they don't need to actually attack us. All they have to do is talk about attacking us and then sit back in the safety of their home country and watch us destroy our own economy in our hysterical over reaction to the supposed threat. Well said. Let's hope they continue that strategy rather than actually killing people.
Phoebe Vet: The terrorists learned years ago that they don't need to actually attack us. All they have to do is talk about attacking us and then sit back in the safety of their home country and watch us destroy our own economy in our hysterical over reaction to the supposed threat.
I think if you are a rail fan doing rail fan things you will be ok. The railroaders and rail police know who we are and that we are just there to take a photo and watch the trains. Now the local police, that may be a different story. Just use common sense and stay off rail road property and all should be ok.
selector cx500: In other words, they will chase the visible railfans away from all strategic railroad areas, in order that Al-Qaida can work undisturbed by observers. Expect more counter-productive security theatre..... John John, respectfully, I don't follow your reasoning. Are railfans currently allowed in 'strategic railroad areas'? If they chase away people with cameras, would they not chase away those without cameras? How would they know whom to chase away at all? And if the news is legitimate, and the plan worth publicizing at all, why would it follow that increasing vigilance and security measures for traveler safety would be counter-productive? Would it be reasonable, in view of the public announcement, that the authorities state they intend to take no more notice or measures, despite the news? Crandell
cx500: In other words, they will chase the visible railfans away from all strategic railroad areas, in order that Al-Qaida can work undisturbed by observers. Expect more counter-productive security theatre..... John
The reasoning is simple... there are not enough people employed by the RRs or Homeland Security to watch all the track, all the time... so they are randomly watching random places where they can, when they can.
They see a railfan, investigate them minimally, i.e.; ask for identification, take some quick notes, and then tell them to skedaddle. Then they leave to go look someplace else, leaving that spot with no one watching it, neither the railfan nor the enforcement personnel. The terrorist then has a place they can do some dirty deed. with less chance of being seen because the enforcement personnel cannot be at that place all the time and the railfan has been ordered away.
On the other side of the coin, if the railfan was not there to raise suspicion the enforcement personnel would not have needed to stop to investigate and might be able to watch more places in the time it took to do so. And anybody seen would be much more suspect of being a terrorist.
But because the enforcement personnel cannot really tell the difference between a railfan and a terrorist pretending to be a railfan while waiting for the coast to be clear to do their dirty deed, the enforcement actions becomes a farce. It is only if the enforcement personnel can catch the terrorist in the act that they can do any good.
If the railfan goes away so as to not distract the enforcement personnel then there are fewer eyes on the track to watch for the terrorist,leavingg more time for the terrorist to do some dirty deed at the places where the enforcement personnel cannot be all the time.
If enforcement would not waste time checking the ID of anyone near the tracks and then chasing them away, they would be able to go look someplace else for someone doing something they should not be doing.
In addition, the railfan would be watching, too. Enforcement personnel AND the railfan would only be watching for someone doing a dirty deed.
The problem then becomes; how do you tell the difference between someone that has no desire to do a dirty deed and someone waiting for the coast to be clear so they CAN do a dirty deed?
How does someone, enforcement personnel, railfan or general public, know that a person or two on the track someplace is supposed to be there doing whatever it is they are doing?
How does the railfan, out at some obscure photogenic site waiting to photograph a freight train, know that the fellow that drives up in a big SUV with a fancy light bar and dressed in a leather jacket with a gun on his hip and a shiny badge on his chest, is really enforcement personnel worthy of chasing the railfan away?
It is quite easy to look like a railfan and be waiting for the coast to be clear to do some dirty deed, but it is just as easy to look like enforcement personnel and chase away the extra pair of eyes so as to ensure the coast is clear to do a dirty deed.
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
Yep. Rod Serling was right in the "Monsters Are Due On Maple Street" episode of The Twilight Zone. In that episode, aliens were invading Earth, but rather than take over the planet, they just stirred up fear and panic, causing the people of the neighborhood in the show to destroy themselves.
Kevin
http://chatanuga.org/RailPage.html
http://chatanuga.org/WLMR.html
Crandell:
To follow up Semper's response, consider a major photogenic bridge. You may have noticed that they are commonly included in photos. The railfan is typically somewhat away from the bridge, not trespassing on railroad property and often fairly visible. While he waits for a train to arrive the railfan will be somewhat bored and looking around, and especially at the bridge structure, for anything to catch his or her interest. Suspicious human activity around the bridge will certainly attract attention.
Meanwhile the law enforcement officer drives by and hassles the innocent railfan. Will the officer EVER bother looking closely at the more distant bridge or track - I very much doubt it. Non-railroad police in general have no idea of what to look for on the rail infrastructure anyway.
Increased vigilance and security measures can be worthwhile, if they are actually done in an effective manner. A manned watch at important structures or junctions 24 hours a day will be quite effective. That will not happen so a second alternative is to increase the amount of casual observation, much like a neighborhood watch program. Railfans can provide those eyes yet in practice are all too often actively discouraged. The only likely effect of the latest scare is additional harassment of railfans, which is why I used the term counter-productive.
So if I understand the logic of some Bin Laden when confronted with several Navy Seals in his bedroom quickly entered "trains" in his laptop to take away priveledges (Not rights) from US citizens. You will not find me trackside for awhile. I dislike having guns pointed at me and justifiably in my opinion until this sorts out.
ndbprr So if I understand the logic of some Bin Laden when confronted with several Navy Seals in his bedroom quickly entered "trains" in his laptop to take away priveledges (Not rights) from US citizens. You will not find me trackside for awhile. I dislike having guns pointed at me and justifiably in my opinion until this sorts out.
You'll find me trackside.
*shrugs*
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
zugmann ndbprr: So if I understand the logic of some Bin Laden when confronted with several Navy Seals in his bedroom quickly entered "trains" in his laptop to take away priveledges (Not rights) from US citizens. You will not find me trackside for awhile. I dislike having guns pointed at me and justifiably in my opinion until this sorts out. You'll find me trackside. *shrugs*
ndbprr: So if I understand the logic of some Bin Laden when confronted with several Navy Seals in his bedroom quickly entered "trains" in his laptop to take away priveledges (Not rights) from US citizens. You will not find me trackside for awhile. I dislike having guns pointed at me and justifiably in my opinion until this sorts out.
Don't you work for the RR zugmann?
Umm... I guess my new answer should be "that information is classified".
Zug,
When confronted by someone with a weapon I don't get mad. I shoot back.
Norm
Everyone take a deep breath. As far as I can tell no one has been harassed at this point. If a threat is made it makes sense to be more vigilant. That doesn't automatically mean there will be problems.
Mike
The problem that I see with this, is where would you derail a train that would have sufficient impact to achieve terrorist objectives?
Maybe one of the major Amtrak routes, but even then it's not the major havoc that would have the type impact that I imagine they would want.
Now, if perhaps they could smuggle a nuclear payload onto a freight, and detonate it in some major urban location, say the Alameda trench, or similar. then THAT would be a credible threat.
Convicted One, I'll bet they'll find the movie "Atomic Train" among the data of the terrorists to accomplish what you just mentioned. As for attacking a passenger train as described, Bin laden is right-it will only work once, and he is smart to understand that. As for the impact, it wil be large, not because of the derailment, but because it was Al Qaeda that did it. Heck, everybody could survive with varying injuries, but we all know how the American reaction would be, anyhow. An engineer using his cell phone while running a train involved in amajor crash with massive loss of life actually had much lesser impact than what an Al Qaeda derailment with no loss of life would have.
nppbbd, you're being forced to leave the tracks? Are you sure you want to give up your rights? If anything, you could educate anyone who gives you trouble on the real situation. Some may learn, others will refuse to listen to anything you have to say, and other things could happen, too. if you just go leaving the tracks, then the terrorists have already won this next "attack".
A big count is not required. We have already shown that we have zero tolerance for risk. Any event would result in us spending hundreds of billions of dollars trying to harden the rail network against all possible future threats.
We are going to bankrupt ourselves as we sink ever deeper into the swamp of paranoia.
A semi-organized band of primitive criminals is doing what no army has ever been able to do.
"We are going to bankrupt ourselves as we sink ever deeper into the swamp of paranoia.
-These are exactly the kinds fo things I was hoping humans would start learning after having repeated this stuff so many times, yet, they don't. As the first line continues to prove true, the second will will always be made possible as a result. And then nature will get *** off again and show everyone a few lessons again. And then all that extra security and dollars spent will be useless as many trains everywhere are thrown on the ground by earthquakes and/or other disasters with many times the number of lives lost as such accidents normally carry. Sadly, even then, humans still won't seem to learn and will likely just continue repeating all this. Who owns the country by then, well, I don't know. Perhaps China will do things differently when they take over.
One final thing, having just reread the first line, I hate to make this sound even worse, but backruptcy would be zero dollars. We are way in negative dollars-known as debt. We are so much worse than backrupt.
A semi-organized band of primitive criminals is doing what no army has ever been able to do."
cx500Increased vigilance and security measures can be worthwhile, if they are actually done in an effective manner. A manned watch at important structures or junctions 24 hours a day will be quite effective. That will not happen so a second alternative is to increase the amount of casual observation, much like a neighborhood watch program. Railfans can provide those eyes yet in practice are all too often actively discouraged. The only likely effect of the latest scare is additional harassment of railfans, which is why I used the term counter-productive.
I've heard of a couple of instances where RR infrastructure were being guarded by troops. One was the largest trestle in Carrizo Gorge on the SD&AE and the other were substations on the NYC's Grand Central trackage.
The wreck of the City of San Francisco in August 1939 is evidence that a knowledgeable person can cause a lot of damage with a moderate amount of effort. On the other hand, that was before welded rail came into common use.
- Erik
Taking train pictures is not a constitutional "right". Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are.
ndbprr Taking train pictures is not a constitutional "right". Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are.
Not to be too picky here, but actually, neither are "Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness". These are amongst the "inalienable rights" declared in the US Declaration of Independence, not the Constitution. And while the Fathers of Our Country tried to embody these principles in the Supreme Law of the Land (the Constitution), the Declaration itself is just that -- a declaration of principles, without any legal standing. (Con Law 101)
"Liberty" and "pursuit of happiness" seem to fit the definition for some folk.
ndbprr Taking train pictures is not a constitutional "right". [snip]
- Paul North.
I suspect that many terrorists have a very limited idea of exactly what they are trying to attack, geographically.
I can think of a number of targets one could attack that would put more fear into the American public than a skyscraper in a big city. I could be wrong, but I suspect we can look for attacks on high-profile targets.
That doesn't minimize any damage or loss of life, but it does mean that even several attacks probably won't cripple the country the way these folks would probably like to think they will.
Despite increased precautions, life was mostly back to normal for most people on October 11, 2001.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
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