Why the California Zephyr was late again; or how the UP cut 'em off at the pass

[domefoamer]

Sunday afternoon I was out roaming around northern Colorado, showing my 7 y.o. daughter the sights of the territory we call home. Around 6 pm, we headed over to the west end of Gore Canyon to see if there were any trains passing by the most dramatic viewpoint on the whole Moffat Route. Even if not, the view from a 1500-foot-high roadside overlook called Inspiration Point is always worth a side trip. When we arrived, a long coal train was stopped on the double-track. It was a good 20 minutes after we arrived before it started its engines and began inching up the single-track into the canyon. It took a few minutes for the train to depart the three-mile-wide vista below us.
That's when the Zephyr rounded the bend, also eastbound. Because the coal hauler hadn't waited five minutes more at the siding, on top of the more than half hour it had already lingered, the pride of Amtrak would have to follow it all the way through Gore, moving at coal's geologic pace. When we left, ten minutes later, Amtrak was idling once more.
How can UP justify this stupid routing? Did we see something unusual, or sadly commonplace? It's just like that big, pig-slow RV that pulled out onto the two-lane in front of my car, at the bottom of a long hill...[:0]

[Mookie]

Going to show my ignorance here and try to answer some of this.

If I am not mistaken, the CZ comes through Lincoln - both ways and is rarely on time.

The railroads dictate when the Amtrak will run over their rails. It is a possiblity that the coal train was next to go and the Amtrak was late as usual, ergo, was put behind the coal train. People have lectured me that it isn't deliberate and that this is just the way the cookie crumbles, since the RR's could get into big trouble if they deliberately delay Amtrak. And the tooth fairy does still put $ under the driver's pillow....

And while we are on the subject of Amtrak - I realize $ is a problem, but the Amtrak (hopefully the CZ) through here looks really ratty. Looks like it has had some run-in's with the "scrape paint off and mash" fairy. Maybe Mookie should sit at the depot with some paint and do some decorating while it is stopped. Couldn't hurt!

[Hugh Jampton]

I can see the headlines now..
"Mookie arrested in Lincoln graffiti scandal,,, film at 11"

[Anonymous]

Come on man,your talking about the UP.........The only thing the UP cares about is......THEM SELVES! The UP will do every thing in their power to screw amtrak to being on time. If you remember a few years ago the UP made a nasty comment about amtrak.
BNSF RULES!

[Mookie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Hugh Jampton

I can see the headlines now..
"Mookie arrested in Lincoln graffiti scandal,,, film at 11"

But it would be such nice graffiti! Pastels and jewel colors, Chessie type drawings...awwwww....Kitty Art! Gotta be an improvement....

[Anonymous]

Hey, the UP just tied up Amtrak in CA because George Bush Sr. was on the UP biz train!!

Talk about being beaten by a bush...foflmao...

LC

[jeaton]

I once watched this from the St Louis depot as I was waiting to take the Texas Eagle back to Chicago. The train was already late due to an obviously ill passenger deciding to get off the train to escape people "out to get him". Unfortunately, the train was moving a 59MPH. Anyway, the agent at St Louis was patiently keeping we posted and when he advised about 5 minutes, I went out side to watch the train arrive. Just at that point I saw a ballast train start to move south out of the yard. It was at least 10 minutes before the ballast train was out of sight and another 10 before the Eagle arrived.

Obviously, neither I nor domefoamer know the full story, but I do know that *** Davidson has publicly expressed his disdain for long distance train, at least Amtrak trains. So you are the UP dispatcher and you have to hold a freight or hold the Amtrak.
What would you do?

I'm not going to speculate alterior motives, but it is appearant that Davidson has ties to the Bush family. Part of the recent steam trip was to support fund raising for the Bush, Sr. library, and right now the former president and his wife are traveling on the UP out west on a train of the UP private cars. Strikes me as a little eletism. Let the general public fly, drive, take the bus or eat cake, but if are a person of wealth, fame or power, give us a call.

Jay

[Anonymous]

I actually saw the CZ heading west up into the mountains Sunday morning while going down highway 93 between Boulder and Golden. But I could also see that further up the tracks (from the road, you can see the tracks slowly climb the mountains before the track turns into a canyon) was a very slow moving UP freight. So either the freight was going to have to speed up or the Amtrak was going to be slowed WAY down, he was cookin' going up the hills.

[mike-65]

I thought Amtrak was s'posed to have precedence over freight traffic?

I think I remember somethin' about how Amtrak was threatening to sue a few railroads several years ago? Don't remember how it turned out, tho.

[Junctionfan]

Washington D.C should pass a bill telling railroads to give Amtrak trains as much priority as their intermodals. In Canada our Via trains rarely get stopped by anything other than other Vias. CN dispatcher tend to be very kind with VIA 1 "Canadian" Toronto to Vancouver. If that train stops, it is somethimes because of big 200+ car grain train hasn't finnished fouling a passing siding.

[jeaton]

Mark is right in that there could be many valid reasons for the these kinds of delays, and I am not suggesting that UP dispatchers have direct orders to stick Amtrak.

However, it seems to me that a good dispatcher would have a sense of the way the wind is blowing. In other words, if it's a toss-up, what's going to keep the boss, and his boss, and his boss, etc., happy.

[Anonymous]

Limitedclear please state all the FACTS or maybe you didn't read or hear the whole story.

The Secret Service is the one who stuck it to the commuter train. The UP had told them what there plan was as not to obstruct the arrival and unloading of the train and than when the time arrived the Secret Service said NO.

Prrobably a terroist threat information from the Department of Homeland UNSECURITY.


jerod

[tree68]

Mark's comments on crew hours rang a bell. Seems like I just read somewhere of a dispatcher complaining that management wanted trains out on time (we're talking freight here), even though making a particular 2 hours late out of the terminal would mean the crew wouldn't get stuck a little later on. As with many things, there is undoubtedly a solution, the question is whether all the parties want to implement it.

[jeaton]

Larry, I suppose that has to do with origin terminal delay pay. I forgot, is that what they call it? Crews get penalty pay if they don't get out of town within so much time after their report time.

In the late days of the 100 mile crew districts, when it wouldn't be too hard to get the day's pay in 4 or 5 hours, and I think that union rule was the defense against managers calling crews early and cutting into the "early quit" feature of a good run.

When I was working on trains, one of the brighter engineers on the roster said the pay structure (basicly, days ay for the 100 mile run) was a good incentive to get the train over the road as quickly as the rules and safety permitted.

On the other hand, if it looks like trip is going to go into over time, it is not too hard to use the book to make the trip a little bit longer. I sometimes wonder if the establishment of longer crew districts had an impact on overtime and crews going dead on hours. I know that and the reduced crew size was all about "a day's work for a day's pay", but sometimes one might wonder if railroad management shot it self in the foot.

[RudyRockvilleMD]

I agree with Mark Hemphill we don't know all of the facts, and the only way to really find out what's going on is to listen in to the railroad's road channel on the scanner.

If I am not mistaken Amtrak is still to be given priority handling over freight trains so it appears as if the dispatcher made a mistake so what domefoamer saw may not have been commonplace. I can think of a possible scenario. The California Zephyr may have already been running late, out of its slot, but it showed up earlier than the dispatcher anticipated, so the dispatcher let the unit coal train out of the siding to advance it to the next siding where the California Zephyr could overtake and pass it; thus advancing the freight train's crew to its terminal. If I remember correctly it is slow running through Gore Canyon any way so the difference in speeds between the freight train and the California Zephyr may not have been so great that the coal train would have more seriously delayed it.

That's my theory for what it's worth.

[domefoamer]

Wow, this touched off some comments and controversy. I thought it would. And if I had thought of any way to blame it on W., I certainly would have (just came back from Farenheit 911 tonight). I don't know the story, or even quite enough insiders' lingo to understand some of your speculations. I do doubt there was more passing track ahead for the whole length of Gore Canyon. I think the CZ went about 30 mph through there when I rode it in March. Given the scenery, this is a great place to spend more time, even stopped. But it's only us railfams who want to spend extra time on an already slow train.
So I draw no conclusions, except that Amtrak's arrival time here should have been no mystery to any dispatcher or freight engineer. I saw the coal hauler spend a good half hour stopped before the CZ came, and maybe much more time before I arrived. Waiting five minutes more would have given Amtrak clear passage through an obstacle.
Poor Amrtak, tangled up in freight. When it finally reaches Denver, passenger loading is delayed another 30 minutes while freight cars are spotted and deposited at Union Station. Last, and least, come the paying passengers.

[Kozzie]

Mark, thanks for the info. [:)] Sure explains a few things.

Just one little Q - what do you mean by a "dog train"?

Thanks [:D]

Dave
(Kozzie)

[domefoamer]

That's a terrific explanation you gave, M.W. Your post should be reprinted in a textbook, if there is such a thing. Concerning the 10 possible rationales you enumerated, I had considered a few. I didn't see if #2 was true or not. The coal train was long, with a pair of power units front and rear and another in the middle. Sorry I don't have more details, because I'm a right-brainer. But I know thhis was a typical UP/DRG coal train, and if it won't fit on that siding, tomorrow's won't either. NIx to #4 for the same reason. Scenario #3 seems possible. My last Zephyr ride lingered for a scenic sunset hour beside the UP HQ in Rock Springs for a hour while a fresh crew drove into town for duty. This spot was easily accessible by road, but pretty remote. If an opposing move (#6) was approaching, it certainly wasn't a pasenger train. I doubt #7 & 8 are true. No crew change (#9) was coming for a half hour of roadless canyon ahead. No. 10, that I'd believe. It's a fascinating question, isn't it? I'll leave it to wiser heads now.

[miniwyo]

QUOTE: Originally posted by domefoamer

#3 seems possible. My last Zephyr ride lingered for a scenic sunset hour beside the UP HQ in Rock Springs for a hour while a fresh crew drove into town for duty. This spot was easily accessible by road, but pretty remote. If an opposing move

When was your last Zypher ride, and what state was Rock Springs in? Just wondering.

[Paul Milenkovic]

What I don't get is why freight trains are so slow.

On the highways, the 18-wheeler trucks are the fastest things on the road -- at least compared to the non-turbocharged 4-cylinder car I drive. Whatever is on those trucks seems to be in a bigger hurry to get there than I am.

The argument presented in J. G. Kneiling Integral Train Systems is that time is money, and there are loan payments to be made on the train cars in a coal unit train, and if that unit train is moving slow the payments come due before the train even gets there.

[Modelcar]

....Agree with the speeding trucks...but many of them are doing it unlawfully. Way above the speed limit. If interstate running trucks would be held to the lawful speed limit...[generally], they would not be making nearly the time across the terrritory. And probably would not be as competitive.

[domefoamer]

Thanks again, MW, for an inside look at what must be a tough job. That's just the kind of informed comment I hoped to provoke with this post.
Miniwyo, I know why you might think I was lost on my last Zephyr trip. Indeed, I may have gotten Rock Springs confused with Green River, which I think was our delay point (and which did give us a nice long look at the interesting Southwest-style sandstone formations surrounding the little main street). But I'm certain I was in Wyoming. My trip was in late March. The CZ was detoured to the Overland Route that week while they were still picking up coal and cars after a derailment in Glenwood Canyon. "It'll be a quicker trip," the station agent reassured me, but I arrived in SLC on the advertised anyhow.

[Anonymous]

I hate saying this,but to the UP.....Amtrak is a low priority train. It's been like this for years.
BNSFrailfan.

[jjlamkin]

We had the same experience with Amtrak Train 2 The Sunset Limited. We were supposed to leave New Orleans on April 6 at 10:30pm. Train 2 was so late, we did not leave until April 7 around 8 am. This train rountinely runs late according to the station ticket attendant. Also I noticed once aboard we had to wait on many CSX trains east of New Orleans. At one location we were even backed onto a siding on a single track section and then had to wait at least 10 minutes for the freight to show up!!

[espeefoamer]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M.W. Hemphill

Kozzie: Dog train = anything that has no urgency attached to it; the opposite of a hotshot or redball (old term rarely used now). Intermodal trains usually have a schedule; coal trains have performance guarantees; autorack trains have really tight schedules -- so they're not dog trains. Generally speaking, a "dog train" is composed of mixed single-car shipments, both loads and empties -- things like lumber, scrap steel, chemicals, plastic pellets, grain loads, etc., stuff that moves at low rates and has lowest priority on everything. Synonyms include "junk train" and "dead freight." Unit trains are not dog trains, though they may not run any faster. The dog train is the one you salt away in a siding or park in a yard if you're out of crews, track, or both. It's the one that goes in the siding for a meet, has its power stolen, and generally is the one a road crew hates to get because they're going to suffer out there forever.

In other words,the way UP treats the Sunset Limited.[}:)]

[Mookie]

It's getting to be a Saturday morning delight. Amtrak is due thru here at 5 am or thereabouts. It is coming thru anywhere between 9 and this last Sat, 10:05 am. I enjoy watching it, since it usually has roadrailers on it. And the whistle, before you see the train always sounds like it is going 90 mph, but it is crawling into the depot!

Mookie

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mookie


If I am not mistaken, the CZ comes through Lincoln - both ways and is rarely on time.

The EB is more often than not "rarely on time" because of UP. That's where criticism should be directed towards. They've been running trains for over a century and can't alway seem to run Amtrak on time.

I've ridden that route often and it's usually OT or nearby to Lincoln - WB, that is.