NY Times investigates RR accidents in expose

[Anonymous]

OK, Antigates this is the original thread...

LC

[Randy Stahl]

Unfortunatly I have seen many event recorders that provided erronious information, including speeds that were wrong, there are few standards when it comes to event recorders, every railroad has a different idea . If you mix up axle gens you can double the indicated speeds, ie replace a 20 ppr with a 60 ppr
I have done many accident investigations, I prefer not to talk about it , I have seen many very sad things.
Randy

[wabash1]

Ed

To add to the mix here on the NS Most cases it is trainmasters and roadformans who give statements to the public about accidents. and in some cases where news crews have come to the sceane of a accident the officials have told the news people to leave. if they refuse and try using the lame i am the media then the officials got o the police and have them arrested if they wont leave as they are tresspassing. Also I cant believe the event recorder recorded a train going 158mph and 138 ( as close as i can remeber it saying) but if the thing was recording metric then wouldnt that be around 60mph?

The just of the matter is there is a witch hunt and it seems they are picking on the union pacific for now. and that i still think it is one sided reporting. If the recorders was tampered with this would be admisable in court and most certainly they would lose the case. also there was a statement that the trooper was to ask for a copy of the event recorder records at the sceane. Most engineers know that these are either 8 track tape type or the new ones are like a 1.5 floppy and downloaded on them. unless someone brings a lap top computor they cant read these things in the field and i have never seen a official carry a printer with them. police dont have the soft ware to read these tapes either. this is one reason i report buffs ( who think they need to get close for the picture) near misses and anyone else who gets on the property to see what we do. and let the law handle it the way they want.

[edblysard]

WDGF,
No, I dont think there is a sweeps week for newspapers, but, articles like this do sell newspapers.
Note this story is very prominent in the national section.
Politics plays a large role in what appears in papers like this.

Think back to the Watergate era...remember the Post every running anything that presented Nixon's side to the story, other than short, out of context quotes?

I noticed this paticular article seemed to foucs on UP quite intently.
BNSF and KCS, were mentioned, but only briefly, and CSX and NS, although mentioned, were almost aplauded for having fixed "their problems"

It almost makes you wonder how much influence could be exerted by shippers, who happen to be advitisers also.
For all we know, UP may be delivering newsprint rolls late to the NY Times printer....

The report was rather biased in other ways.
It did note that crossing accident were down quite a bit in tte last few years, and it did note that one of the major reasons was due to grade crossing removal, but it failed to mention that almost every grade crossing that gets removed is removed because the railroads push for it, nor does it mention that grade crossing closings are a top priority with the AAR and FRA.

Linda Morgan was quoted in a TV special once as saying "the safest crossing, is the one that's not there", yet I failed to find credit given to any railroad for this attitude in the report.

While we were shown video and audio bites from the victims point of veiw, none were presented which allowed UP to respond, yet I am sure that, if offered, Ms. Blackwell would have been happy to provide the Times with UP's response and footage.

The entire article smacks of the attitude that railroads, UP in paticular, are the somewhat evil big industry, intent on harming the little guy in pursuit of profit.

And one thing that bothered me greatly about the report is that fact that it puts forth the notion that the actions and attitudes such as reported are the norm at all railroad crossing accidents, nation and industry wide.

No where does it present the or report on the other times where the railroads has gone to great lengths to solve some of the problems.

Remember the incident where the school bus was trapped at a crossing by the traffic lights bad timing, and was struck by the comuter train.
The railroad there had every legal right to download the black box, and then provide the NTSB with the information.
Instead, they handed the event recorder over to the NTSB, un altered and intact.

The article failed to mention the numurous times railroad have sponsered police and law enforcement ride alongs/sting operations, where the law enforcement folks get to see first hand how often the general public ignores the grade crossing devices.

Dont misunderstand me, if the folks at UP did what the article states, and I have no real reason to belive otherwise, then they commited crimes, for which they should be punished to the full extent of the law.
I also belive that the investigation of crossing accidents should, by law, be left up to the law enforcement agencies, not the railroads.
I can make such a statement, because I belive that in almost every instance, law enforcement investigaters will find that the drives of the car was at fault.
In the few instances where railroads bear the brunt of the blame, then the railroad should fix the problem, if it is with their jurisdiction to do so, and pay whatever the courts find as punitive damages.

But remember, almost every at grade crossing is the product of the local officals deciding to cross private property, and having to sue a railroad to gain access to install their crossing over our tracks, with little or no input from us as to how to design and install such crossings.
Note the photo of the garbage truck site, the one in the audio clip, where the victim is standing in front of the crossing.
That is a private crossing, a dirt and gravel road installed by a moron, not a well designed or protected crossing.
I would bet they almost get hit there all the time, and with good reason...


Ed

[WDGF]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M.W. Hemphill
But that question is completely missing from the story! Why is it missing? Perhaps because the answer wouldn't take the reporter and editor where they wanted to go?

This reminds me very much of the television "investigative" reports that pop up every ratings period. Is there an equivalent for newpapers?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by WearyErie

Beginning Sunday, July 11 The New York Times will publish an expose into RR accident investigations.

Sunday's edition starts with grade crossings. Of 3,000 crossing accidents last year only 4 were investigated by the feds.

The UP, BNSF, KCS, and NS railroads are blasted. The article discusses evidence tampering, black box malfunctions, maintenance, slow orders, etc.

Should be an interesting series.

Sounds like a mess...

LC

[locomutt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M.W. Hemphill

Macguy: You can sign up to the NY Times site for free -- I've read their website for years and it has virtually the entire content of the print version. (I don't understand the business model, but that's not my problem!)

You do have to give them your e-mail address, but to protect your home address you can always acquire a Yahoo e-mail account (that's what I do for any site that requires an e-mail address). I've never received any spam from the Times since I signed up, even at the dead-end Yahoo inbox I use.

The article is worth reading by anyone interested in railroads, and I'll be looking forward to the subsequent installments. I highly recommend you read it.

Candidly, I do not think it is the best example of investigative reporting I've seen from the Times, certainly not of the quality of the Tyler Pipe investigative article of last year. I do not think the article is balanced. Nonetheless, the allegations it contains of systemic coverups and destruction of evidence are shocking and appear well substantiated. I think this report has a high possibility of causing tremendous damage to the railroad industry -- financially, politically, and reputation-wise. Anyone who is involved with or interested in railroads has to be extremely dismayed right now, and I don't expect when I talk to people in the business Monday that I'll hear a single one of them blustering about "irresponsible drivers" or "activist judges," either. Bluster and posturing and ranting isn't going to make this go away.

Mark,
Can you give us a link to web site? Would love to watch that story myself.

[edblysard]

Oh boy, hope Bergie has his eyes peeled for the M&M twins, this is right UP their alley...
(yes, thats a bad pun)

Most grade crossing accidents are the fault of the motorist, and all of us who run the trains can testify to that.
Also, all of us who run the train report to our supervisors any gate or safety device we see malfunctioning.
Beyond that, it is out of the T&E employees control.

All that said, it still is shameful if what the reporters claim is true.

Destruction or altering any record or physical evidence of any kind is illegal.

The sad part is currently, there is no legal remedy to prevent the carriers from doing just what the report claims, other than judges issuing sanctions, which amount to not much more than a fine.

Because the accident invistigation is pretty much the jurisdiction of the railroad itself, one would have to imagine that the carrier does all that it can to limit its liability.

But tampering with evidence, and losing documents and tape recordings it (the carrier) knows are relevant, is still a crime.

Of course, the mentality of "if you cant see it, hear it, or find it, then it dosnt exsist, and it cant be produced in court" is the main reason they do stuff like this.

Sad too, because in almost every instance quoted, it would have been much more cost efficent for the railroad to fix the problem in the first place, instead of playing the odds that nothing will happen, or, if something does occure, betting that they can offer a large enough settlement to make the plantif go away.

Down here on the little old railroad I work for, all of our grade crossing devices are installed and maintained by UP.

If a train crew finds a defective device at a grade crossing, we flag the crossing, and call in the location to our yardmaster/dispatcher.

In the 8 years I have been here, the longest it took UP to have someone there working on it was 9 hours, and that was on a grade crossing out in a industrial location, in the middle of nowhere, in the middle of the night.

Vegetation isnt a problem here either.

When we can legally remove any over grown brush, we do so.

If a train crew reports a crossing that they feel is obstructed by any brush or debris, our MOW guys get to it the same day.

Where we have no legal right to enter, (private porperty) we have taken legal action to force the home owner or business to clear the area, and, if it is a industry that is a customer of ours, we have refused to work the plant, as a matter of policy, until they fix the problem.

There is one instance that stands out in my time here.

A lumber company(I am leaving their name out on purpose) leased a small part of their front parking lot to a taco vendor, who placed one of those portable, on a trailer type taco stands in this spot.

You know the kind I am talking about, they have a small stove in them, a ice box, and a serving window in the side.

Good tacos, bad location, as the stand blocked the view of the crossing and tracks not only for the motorist entering and leaving the lumber company's lot, but also our view from the locomotive of any automobiles approach to the crossing from inside the lumber company's parking lot.

We approached the guy who owned the stand, and asked him to move it back from the tracks, about 50', and explained why.
His response, although descriptive, was...well, lets say I dont think I could do that to myself.

Our Superintendent then approached the lumber company, and asked them to make him move, which they refused to do, claiming they had a legal contract with the taco vendor for that one spot, and they couldnt force him to move until the contract expired, which they claimed was for the three months of summer.

Solution?
Leave the lumber company's spot cars, full of plywood and really nice douglas fir 2x4s, on the sideing just outside of their fence.

After a few days of not only being denied their lumber, but not being able to ship their pre-fab roof joist out, and seeing their cars slowly becoming less than car load shipments, due to the locals helping themselves at night to a few sheets of plywood here and there, and a few studs and beams, the management of the lumber yard decided that what ever the taco guy was paying them to rent their parking lot wasnt enough.

We can do that because our contract with almost every industry and customer we service states they have the responsibility to maintain a safe and hazard free enviroment in and around all the rail facilities within their property where we provide switching service, and if they fail to do so, the local crews may report it as a unsafe condition, and suspend service for that day.

If the problem is not resolved, the superintendent may suspend all service until said problem is corrected.

So, it has been my experience that most of the "bad" or unsafe crossings here, at least, are dealth with rather quickly.

In fact, almost every crossing in Houston, when reported as unsafe, be it UP or BNSF, or one of ours, is handled fast.

That said, seems that UP, outside of this area, at least, has taken a far different approach to the problem, if the facts reported are to be belived.

Sad too, its so much easier to fix the problem in the first place...

I am going to follow this story with a lot of interest.

Oh, and like Mark said, you can read the entire "newspaper" on their site, its free, and in the last year I have been reading it, spam free too!

Ed.

[Anonymous]

Oh ok, at least it's free.

[Anonymous]

I suppose you have to have a subscription to that website in order to get the stories?

I think the NYTimes is like that, aren't they?

[Anonymous]

Beginning Sunday, July 11 The New York Times will publish an expose into RR accident investigations.

Sunday's edition starts with grade crossings. Of 3,000 crossing accidents last year only 4 were investigated by the feds.

The UP, BNSF, KCS, and NS railroads are blasted. The article discusses evidence tampering, black box malfunctions, maintenance, slow orders, etc.

Should be an interesting series.