Triple Crown, CSX dysfunction, and NS lethargy

[Anonymous]

Well Ed, (and others) I think I pulled a hat trick last night, by doing a little leg work, I think i have spotted a primary culprit that ties several issues together.

Being: Reduced Train frequency on the NS this past year, constraint of NS traffic to "spurts" throughout the day, and the "stranded" CSX loco sets I saw idling for quite some time.

The culprit? (perhaps poorly planned) "Growth" of Triple crown.

The TC facility is nestled into the former Pennsey "Piqua" yard, down the CSX rails south easterly from the "Mike" junction/crossing of the NS Detroit to points west/CSX former Pennsey main line to Chicago.

"Mike" is a key crossing where two mainlines cross and in order to get an inbound Triple Crown Train from the detroit North east line (see map at link below) into the triple crown yard the train has to pull past "mike" then pu***hose road railers across the South west inbound NS line, and down the one remaining line to Piqua. A feat that is complicated if ANY west bound Triple Crown train needs to come out of the facility first.

I watched quite a chess game last night, very interesting.

It is no wonder to me that NS reroutes every possible train around this mess whenever possible, nor is it any surprise that CSX wants out of the mess completely (leasing the lines to others)

I think someone mentioned a while back that NS was going to operate the former Pennsy west to Chicago? If true, that would make perfect sense, giving NS exclusive control of "mike" junction, and letting the CSX Lessee worry about Piqua and points east.

If Thats the way it washes, I'd expect NS will be doubling the spur from Mike to Triple crown, and solve a host of problems (just guessin')


http://www.trainweb.org/fwarailfan/fortwayne_loc.htm

[MP173]

I am further west of Ft Wayne, near Valpo. It sure would make sense for NS to run on the Pennsy. Evening on the NS gets a little interesting around 9pm as the following eastbounds are a running:

262 - TC
215 - Jacksonville Intermodal
236 - Norfolk Intermodal
175 - Knoxville carload train

It is not uncommon for those to all be running east within one hour of each other. Throw in a westbound coal train or two and perhaps 307 and you have a pretty busy railroad.

How does the NS send it's New Castle trains thru Ft. Wayne? Do they switch over to the PRR and then to New Castle line?

Also, do you have a current list of NS symbols running to Chicago. My list is from the Sept 97 Trains issue and I know things changed after the Conrail merger.

ed

[MP173]

Also, what do you hear about the PRR line to Chicago. They seem to be running the daily train to Chicago with quite a bit of Central Soya cars. Any big plans for that?

ed

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173

I am further west of Ft Wayne, near Valpo. It sure would make sense for NS to run on the Pennsy. Evening on the NS gets a little interesting around 9pm as the following eastbounds are a running:

262 - TC
215 - Jacksonville Intermodal
236 - Norfolk Intermodal
175 - Knoxville carload train

It is not uncommon for those to all be running east within one hour of each other. Throw in a westbound coal train or two and perhaps 307 and you have a pretty busy railroad.

How does the NS send it's New Castle trains thru Ft. Wayne? Do they switch over to the PRR and then to New Castle line?

Also, do you have a current list of NS symbols running to Chicago. My list is from the Sept 97 Trains issue and I know things changed after the Conrail merger.

ed

Thats a nice part of the state over there, my mom was originally from Wasaw, And I fondly recall all the lakes out that way.

Wish I could answer you questions, but I haven't fallen quite that far "in" (yet) [:D] I haven't started the 'time table" bit yet, except for mental notes based upon what I've observed. I'm more at the 'impressed by big machines' phase of it, with the core interest that maintains my curiousity being a fascination with "rust belt" America, i love exploring dormant sidings with big vacant brick industrial buildings that were formerly "big" industry... With the economy the way it is in Indiana right now,and this warped interest ,I seem to be on the forefront of a "growth" hobby , unfortunately.

Hopefully someone else can answer your question. I'm still stuck on trying to figure out what "milepost 319" just outside of Piqua yard is '319 miles' from...[;)]

[Anonymous]

One question I can answer for you is the newcastle district question.

If you look at the map I linked to earlier, the northbounds proceed through Hugo, then westtbound on the former Pennsy to the "Hadley cutoff" at Sand, from there they can go just about anywhere

More info: http://www.trainweb.org/fwarailfan/fortwayne_rrte.htm

[Wooster25]

mp319 is 319 miles from Pittsburgh where the FT. Wayne line originates.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Wooster25

mp319 is 319 miles from Pittsburgh where the FT. Wayne line originates.

Thanks!!

[ValleyX]

Plans are to build a second connection track from Mike to Piqua sometime in the very near future.

I don't think the Triple Crown congestion has anything to do with CSX decision to lease out the railroad, they haven't operated much traffic on this railroad since acquiring it, despite pre-acquisition rumors to the contrary.

[rrnut282]

I was staking out new track centerline for a second switching lead into Triple Crown last week. When completed they should be able to have 2 TC trains switching at the same time. There are already two tracks from "mike" to the yard, one is CSX's main and the second is for TC to use. Starting just past the signals, the TC lead will split into two tracks, one connected to the northern three yard tracks and the other the southern yard tracks.

WB TC trains don't have to back in from "Mike". Most turn in at "Union" and use the old Fort Wayne Union Belt RR. You will hear them ask the dispatcher for the "hump and the belt" as they do go by the old hump tower of Piqua Yard into the Triple Crown facility. The Union Belt used to run from the NKP to Pennsy across US30, under the ex Wabash, through the old Gladeaux refinery, behind Phelps Dodge and the former Zollner Piston and International Harvester plants. It swings east almost to Meyer Rd where it turns from south to west opposite of the old Power Wheels plant (itself an ex IH parts building). It runs along the north side of the yard tracks and up to the hump.

Ed
use the link above to the fortwaynerailfan site and go to the operations page. It has a current listing of all trains running to/from Chicago that pass through Fort Wayne. I recommend to anyone interested in a good site to spend some time there. Most of your questions will be answered as you go from page to page.[:)]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rrnut282

I was staking out new track centerline for a second switching lead into Triple Crown last week. When completed they should be able to have 2 TC trains switching at the same time. There are already two tracks from "mike" to the yard, one is CSX's main and the second is for TC to use. Starting just past the signals, the TC lead will split into two tracks, one connected to the northern three yard tracks and the other the southern yard tracks.

WB TC trains don't have to back in from "Mike". Most turn in at "Union" and use the old Fort Wayne Union Belt RR. You will hear them ask the dispatcher for the "hump and the belt" as they do go by the old hump tower of Piqua Yard into the Triple Crown facility. The Union Belt used to run from the NKP to Pennsy across US30, under the ex Wabash, through the old Gladeaux refinery, behind Phelps Dodge and the former Zollner Piston and International Harvester plants. It swings east almost to Meyer Rd where it turns from south to west opposite of the old Power Wheels plant (itself an ex IH parts building). It runs along the north side of the yard tracks and up to the hump.

Ed
use the link above to the fortwaynerailfan site and go to the operations page. It has a current listing of all trains running to/from Chicago that pass through Fort Wayne. I recommend to anyone interested in a good site to spend some time there. Most of your questions will be answered as you go from page to page.[:)]

So, those were your pink flags I saw out there tonight? (nice work) I went back for a closer look, and had a nice talk with a guy throwing switches as they broke down one TC train being backed into the yard as described above, and the funny thing is, while he was still breaking down, another TC train came in from the northeast, and staged in the "parkinglot" that used to be (should be) one of the main lines.

Funny thing is, I remembered that "union belt" track, and drove the "loop" out past Gladieux, around Meyer road, and back in oxford and though it twists to high heaven going through the harvester lot, looked like a maintained roadway, and I couldn't figure out why they wern't using it Seemed really odd, so I just figured the line was no longer "complete" at some point sight unseen. If as you say, it IS still functional, then it's REALLY odd they weren't using it, since the other night they had one of the TC trains waiting to stage for backing in through Mike, straddling Anthony Blvd a good 20 minutes waiting for a train to leave TC through mike, all the while an east bound mixed freight was gridlocked just west of mike...waiting to squeeze through between them.

Quite a mess actually.

So the new line to be added won't go all the way to the NS mainline? but will choke down before the junction?

And, unless I'm blind, those two CSX lines converge to one which then converges with the TC line to one before reaching Mike, only one line from the former pennsey direction crosses Hanna street on the bridge

[ValleyX]

I thought the second connection track was going to come out east of the present day crossovers with maybe a second set of crossovers, as described to me by someone who must not have had a clue as to what he was talking about. But what was I thinking. This is only going to be of limited help since most westbound Triple Crown trains have to come out west of Mike to complete their doubles. Don't think they're going to start running shorter trains, do you[:o)] Nah, didn't think so.

Wonder what affect Minneapolis-St. Paul Triple Crown traffic will have on Ft. Wayne, if any.

[rrnut282]

It might go down to one track at the interlocking, it's been a while since I walked through there. I could go get the plans and look closer, but I have to get up at 0500 dark tomorrow. I do know that there are two signals protecting "Mike Tower" from the southeast.

[rrnut282]

You think it's congested now, wait until they add the new TC trains to Minneapolis-St Paul (unless they just tack on the cars to 264 to Chicago since it is rarely maxed out.)

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rrnut282

It might go down to one track at the interlocking, it's been a while since I walked through there. I could go get the plans and look closer, but I have to get up at 0500 dark tomorrow. I do know that there are two signals protecting "Mike Tower" from the southeast.

Hey that's quite alright, you've been a lot of help already, get that shut eye,...take it from me, it chokes down to one track right after those two signals, I walked in that way from Monroe street two days ago, and thought how odd ot was to see the former "mighty Pennsey" choked down to but one track going over the Hanna street bridge.

Really seems strange they are going to all that work to double up the line, but not connect it as a second junction to the former Wabash....guess that's why they don't pay me to design railroads [8]

[rrnut282]

That extra diamond to have both tracks cross the former Wabash would not get past a cost/benefit analysis. That's probably why it was removed in the first place. Offhand, I can't think of the year that would have been, whether it was when CR single tracked the Pennsy or when NS rebuilt "mike" in the late 80's.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rrnut282

That extra diamond to have both tracks cross the former Wabash would not get past a cost/benefit analysis. That's probably why it was removed in the first place. Offhand, I can't think of the year that would have been, whether it was when CR single tracked the Pennsy or when NS rebuilt "mike" in the late 80's.

Of topic but, you don't by anychance know what company used to operate in that big brick factory looking building right where Monroe street abuts up to mike do you? theres so much Ivy growing on the building you cant read but a small portion of their former sign....just curious for my 'rustbelt' hobby. it sits between hanna and monroe.....

[rrnut282]

Let me think...there was a heat treatment company in the vicinity a while back. Are you talking about the building across from the city street department garage?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rrnut282

Let me think...there was a heat treatment company in the vicinity a while back. Are you talking about the building across from the city street department garage?

Thats the one, brick, old, maybe 4-5 stories high

[rrnut282]

I think Alfe Heat Treating was the last occupant of that building before they moved to Adams Ctr Rd. I don't know who, if anyone, was in it before them.

So you like those pink flagged lath? There's more.

[Anonymous]

Nice work!! for sure. The city ha been doing some major storm drain replacement out in my neck of the woods near Foster Park, putting in 6 foot drains to separate sanitary from storm, to clean up the rivers. The quality of the work you did is a league above the layout work they've been doing.

The surprising thing is, as mentioned to you in another thread, I had never before seen Mike, thought it would be hard to get to, but just stumbled into it at the north end of Monroe, seeking a better vantage to observe the TC comotion starting this thread. Once found, I was thinking "well thats gotta be the former Pennsey over there, somewhat shocked it was but a single line, only walking down far enough to the first switch, since it was getting dark .

Just thinking about what I had seen, coupled with the talk here about CSX letting someone else lease Piqua to points east, and that most of the trains I've seen use the west end of the old Pennsey are NS trains using the Hadley cut-off to get to New castle district, a light bulb went off in my head thinking "boy they could sure save some trouble if they doubled the feeder into Triple crown (as mentioned above, I was strictly speculating)

Few days later I walk in to the same area, but from Winter street, determined to actually see the TC yard, figuring 'well I can walk till I see the first 'no tresspassing ' sign and nobody can get too mad at me. Did so, and while walking east saw a solitary pink ribbon, tied around a spike that was part of the existing rail way.

Wondering "whats up with that?" I simply concluded it was a strange way to mark a loose spike or bad tie, till I saw the rail segment where the entire outer flange was missing for about 10 feet, then thought "ohh bad rail, that's the deal.

After seeing TC in action, I turned around walked the other way , and then ran into all that flagged lath thinking "my gosh, THEY ARE DOUBLING THIS ***!?

At this point I'm not sure which is funnier, the fact that on my first visit I didn't see all your work because it was either too dark or I didn't walk far enough, or that everyone I know is now going to have to put up with the expanded confidence I now have in my 'intuition', since the doubling of the line is yet another example of my having been "right again"...[:D]

[Anonymous]

*edit* Whoops!! Double post....Dang $#@&^%*# slow server*/edit*

[rrnut282]

They talked about doing this project last year, and put it off, then it's a hot job all of a sudden. 4 VP's came through today. They didn't even get out of the van. ( At least where I could see them, they didn't.)

[MP173]

Thanks for the great website on Ft Wayne. After I asked about the NS schedules I explored the site and was really impressed. Whoever put that together deserves a lot of credit and thanks.

Just got back from vacation down to North Carolina and am catching up. Is the TC to Minneapolis going to run from Chicago? Do you think there will be loads from that area to the Southeast? Could be pretty interesting.

Looking at the schedules, it shows two west bounds TC's to Chicago, 261 from Bethlehem and 264 from Jacksonville, yet only 1 eastbound - 262. Why do they have 2 and 1 instead of an even number both directions?

thanks,

ed

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rrnut282

They talked about doing this project last year, and put it off, then it's a hot job all of a sudden. 4 VP's came through today. They didn't even get out of the van. ( At least where I could see them, they didn't.)

[:-^][:-^] LOL! I was the one with the handheld recorder...[:D]

[Anonymous]

What? Of course I was just kidding![:o)]

Based upon what I've seen traffic wise these past couple weeks though, that Mike-TC junction has been a major bugaboo tieing everything up, I can see where "someone" would be pushing hard to put some resources into the area.

The new doubling is gonna go at least far enough to reach the old Piqua "Wye" isn't it? That should help some

[jeaton]

MP173-It's on the Triple Crown in Minneapolis thread

Jay

[Modelcar]

...The Ft. Wayne stuff above has been very interesting. Doesn't it seem railroads have cut up and abandon with disregard..[seemingly], to the point it later comes back to haunt them in some locations.

[Mookie]

You know - I keep saying that about management - ours in particular - they shoot off their foot and then go "oh, oh! Maybe we should have just removed a toe or two."

Deep, Deep cuts that only caused more harm than good. Railroads seem to be no different.

[Modelcar]

Probably deep cuts that make the bottom line look great short term, but a bit farther down the "line"...Not so great.

[Anonymous]

When a big company is in serious trouble, it is common to bring in a new CEO to act as "fireman" When IBM brought in Lou Gerstner is a good example.

Massive cutbacks are expected, entire business strategies once seen as sacred cows are abandoned in what is a fight for survival.

CEO's in other businesses see this and it can be a "monkee see monkee do" type of thing as they are under constant pressure for short term results. But, not having a catastrophy on their hands big enough to justify slaying of sacred cows, they look for opportunities to 'whittle' where they HOPE it will be least noticed., operationally.