Old Nickel Plate

[Anonymous]

I grew up in Ft. Wayne In, and as such, the old "New York, Chicago, & St Louis is a part of my Childhood, And I have always found the unique history of that road to be a source of enjoyment to muse over. (in fact in the recent "Iron Triangle" article, your text might have read "Norfolk Southern" but my mind was going "Nickel Plate" all the way.

I had always suspected this railroad was limited primarily to it's namesake cities, with a few feeder branches in Illinois, Indiana, and Ohio.

Until recently that is. I picked up an old book I had bought years ago "Railroad Atlas of American Railroads:1921" And discovered what APPEARS to be a "NY,Chi,&StL" mainline meandering east through Tennessee from the approximate joinder of Tennessee and Illinois, all the way to chattanooga, thence down all the way to Atlanta.

Questions:

(1) Am I reading this right?

(2) If so, cant find where the line actually linked up with the Nickel plate lines in St Louis, was this a leased connection or something?

(3) or was this just an aquired line via the default of some separate RR, that NY,Chi,&StL operated, totally separately?

(4) did this line survive long enough to become swept up by Norfolk & Western in 1964?

(5) Did Nickel Plate have any other extensive operations elsewhere, outside of "NY,Chi, StL,& (I guess) A"?

[dmoore74]

You've got a couple of similar sounding sets of initials but the other line you're looking at is
the Nashville, Chattanooga & St. Louis (NC&StL).
St. Louis was wishful thinking on the builders'
part until it became part of the Louisville &
Nashville and eventually CSX. The tiny type on some of those old maps can be confusing.

[Anonymous]

Much oblidged for the clarification, it seemed surreal when "that's" what I thought I saw on the map. Was hoping one of ya'll could straighten me out...=)

[Anonymous]

Rick,
6) Do you know how the name Nickel Plate came
into being??

[Anonymous]

Well, it was exactly that which sparked my interest in the first place (probably coupled with all the years I spent driving by ol 765 while it was in public mothballs) but the story according to the way I read it :

It all started in Cleveland OH with a group of Bankers, accountants and Lawyers who were devising s scheme of quasi legal extortion... withn the targets being Cornelius Vanderbilt (NYC) and Jay Gould (UP).

Both targets sought to keep the other out of their own domains, while seeking a means to invade the domains of the other.

Along come the Cleveland bunch, with the business plan to build the perfect instrument for either, and sell it to the highest bidder.

But the emphasis of "perfect" is the essence of the name. Painstakeing efforts were made to buy right-of-way that afforded the straightest, levelest tangents possible, even if such required hurculean efforts to construct iron bridges, in the damnedst of locations, to make it all work.

It did, they did, and the product in the works was promoted as "a nickel plated railroad" which made sense to those involved in constructing Railways at the time, over engineering incorporated in delivering the finished product as touted. To the general public, it just seemed like a nice fancy name. But irrespective,..the name "stuck" and became the roads "herald" of sorts....

The Cleveland group almost succeeded, in that a bidding war did result, that they "cauldron stirred" for years, pressing both Vanderbilt and Gould to the mat several times seeking financing to make good on the next level of bidding, on this protracted "auction".

But, Gould was a sly Dog, and was working his own contingency plan, which culminated in his eventually enlisting a group of farmers to buy "left over" land paralleling the wabash and erie canal through Indiana, after the canals completion.

The state Of indiana was heavily borrowed to fund the canal, and when Goulds consortium proved to be exactly that, and a railway was laid right alongside the recently completed canal, Gould out competed the canal, driving the entire state of Indiana into bankruptcy, and giving Goulds new "Wabash" railroad the edge he needed to say "Bahhhhh!" to the cleveland group. And for all practical purposes at the same time nullifying the appeal of the Nickel Plate to Cornelius Vanderbilt, since the "polcat" was now "in the henhouse".

No matter, because during the protracted bidding war, the Cleveland group discovered they had built a winner, it was profitable to run this highly optimised railway, just as it's Namesake...New York Chicago & St Louis......

This next concept is mostly conjecture on my part, and I welcome anyone having superior knowledge to set the record straight. But I have no indication that the Nickel Plate ever had a direct Chicago to St Louis mainline. In fact to get from Chicago to St Louis on nickel plate right of way, the closest path woud be back into indiana, to a spur at Argos, the spur to Kokomo, where you would pick up the mailine from Fostoria to St Louis. A similar spur existed fro the main line in Fort Wayne's main line, south to Rush ville, permitting interconnect with the same mainline from Fostoria to St Louis.

But the only "All Main line" path from Chicago to St Louis, on the Ny, Chi, & StL railroad requires one to lumber a state and a half back east to the iron triangle of Fostoria to make the connection.

Proof in my mind that the significance of the Railroads given name, as well as it's nickname, was designed to maximize it's appeal to the two Robber barons it was being groomed to seduce...

How did I do...=)

[Anonymous]

Note: The "interconnect" of the Ft Wayne to Rushville spur, to the St Louis Mainline, was at Bluffton In, which out of coincidence sits on the banks of the Wabash river.

Funny indeed that both the Nickel Plate and the Wabash railroads were sucked up by N&W at the same time in 1964, isn't it? Wi***rains would write an article about THAT so I'd know the workings behind the coincidence...=)

[thirdrail1]

Rick, your story is very interesting, but mostly pure fiction, although some of the actual history of what comprised the real "Nickle Plate Road" was even stranger. Like most railroads, the NYC&St.L was the product of a number of mergers The heart of the line ran from Buffalo, NY, to Chicago, in competition with Vanderbilt's Lake Shore & Michigan Southern. It is my understanding that the boiler jackets of its locomotives were actually nickel plated, in an era where plated jackets were common (many with blued "Russia iron"), and that's where the name came from. But, the line to St. Louis is far more fascinating. Did you know that at one time in the 1870's one could ride 3 ft. gauge trains all the way from Toledo, Ohio, to Houston and Dallas, Texas? The major midwestern narrow gauge line was the Toledo, Cincinnati & St. Louis, which eventually became the "Clover Leaf" and ended up as part of the NKP. The Indiana canals were already in ruins before any of this construction took place.

The NKP was for years owned by the NYC, but after the railroads were returned to private ownership after World War I, the Van Swearingen brothers of Cleveland bought the line, as the ICC made the NYC divest itself, and ended up with the Erie and Chessie as well.

The Wabash, on the other hand, was owned by the PRR until the N&W merger of 1964.

[Anonymous]

That certainly is a facinating contrast. =)

Especially since the story of the "Bidding war" was information I gleaned from reading materials at the Denver Railroad Museum, and the "Wabash RR vs the Canal" info I got from the Indiana State Archives...

I know that the NY,C,& STL fell into (or near) Bankruptcy prior to the Van Swearingen brothers era, maybe that's how it fell into the NYC family?

And the "scoundrel" listed as behind the "proxy land grab" of lands ajoining the Canal was Jay Gould, according to the literature I read..

Granted, it was years ago when I read all this, but I don't think I'm "loosing it" that bad,...yet anyway... but who knows? =)

[thirdrail1]

I, too, have lived in Fort Wayne (and Cleveland). When I was in Fort Wayne I worked for the Erie Western and Chicago & Indiana in Huntington, so recall seeing both the remains of the canal and the ex Wabash main line of the N&W, which crossed the old Erie in Huntington. The interurban right-of-way was adjacent to the canal while the Wabash was about 1/2 mile away. I don't dispute Gould being involved, as he did own the Wabash at one time, but at the time the Wabash was constructed, the lines that eventually became the NKP were part of the TC&St.L, the narrow gauge empire. The TC&St.L fell apart because of its poor construction and the NKP was still saddled with narrow gauge curves and grades on its St. Louis line, which is why NS now uses the Wabash almost entirely, with much of the old NYC&St.L abandoned..

[REDDYK]

A part of the old Clover Leaf that does remain between Frankfort and Kokomo, Indiana goes thru my hometown. It has for some time appeared to be headed for abandonment, but unofficial sources now say that NS is about to rebuild some of this. I sure wish I knew what they have in mind for this route.
This line was part of the narrow guage that ran from lake erie to Mexico, and as reported in a Classic Trains article, the western Indiana section sure shows it. That part has been lifted. When it was converted from narrow to standard guage the whole job was accomplished in 24 hours.
Work crews each had responsibility for one mile, all the way across indiana and beyond. Consider what an amazing accomplishment that was.

[Anonymous]

Well, then there probably is truth to both our stories!! =) I find the fact that you worked "railroad" in Huntigton extremely interesting, but I'll try not to bug you to death with "too many" questions..=)

I grew up in Ft Wayne just a stones throw away from the point where the Old Wabash crossed the St Mary's river. So the Wabash was somewhat of my first interest in Railroads (as a wide eyed child). The Old PRR crossed the St Mary's about a mile north of that point, so in a very child like manner, the PRR became "the other guys" in my sphere of influance.

Never would I have imagined that the PRR owned the Wabash at the time (57-64), any info on how that came about would be both informative as well as entertaining....

Years later, developing an interest in how Ft Wayne came to be known as the "summit city" I was doing a bit of "back path" investigating along the little river, and the wabash river between what they called "the old portage" between the Little and the St Mary's river, and the old Attica lock and Dam, and found the remnants of the old canal to be profuse in Aboite township, Roanoke, and especially Andrews. Fun research all of it.

I'll bet that as a railroader in Huntington, that big Glacial morraine was a lot of fun having to deal with? I used to see diesels in mid train on the N&W that I had no idea at the time "why" were in mid train, buth my retrospective guess must be that they were "Distributed power" for that morrain...since they were northbound only.

The "bidding war" story regarding the Nickel Plate, came from a really nice big book That I mused throough at the Denver Railroad museum called "Illustrated history of the Nickel Plate Railroad" which was a huge book, that i still wish I would have bought a copy of from their bookstore...very informative..very fact filled. Last saw it in 1986, probably long out of print now..=(

Didn't know the NKP was narrow guage to St Louis, appreciate your filling me in...Did they ever upgrade it?


Last "silly kid" question..=) the New York Central had a spur that went from their mainline in Waterloo down to Ft Wayne that still had freight traffic into the mid/late 1960's I recall for sure. And road improvements made at some of the crossings in Ft Wayne well into the 1970's preserved the "navigability" of that line, at considerable effort.

Just musing over a recent "map of the month" in trains magazine, depicting an historical disection of Conrail and it's progenitors, the line is omitted from the map. Any thoughts as to why? The line is now abandoned, but I am relatively confident that the line was necessary to get #765 out of mothballs (post 1976 I believe) since that line is the one that used to go right past the location where #765 sat and rusted for years.

[Anonymous]

>>unofficial sources now say that NS is about to rebuild some of this. I sure wish I knew what they have in mind for this route.
Isn't there a huge DELCO plant down around there?

>> Consider what an amazing accomplishment that was.
It really sounds like it!! Must have been a logistical nightmare, and a lot of hard work.

Back in the good old days when the gov't rewarded industry for creating jobs, instead of for consolidation, and before personal injury attorneys advertised in the local media morning noon and night...=)

[Anonymous]

>>Rick, your story is very interesting, but mostly pure fiction, although some of the actual history of what comprised the real "Nickle Plate Road" was even stranger. Like most railroads, the NYC&St.L was the product of a number of mergers The heart of the line ran from Buffalo, NY, to Chicago, in competition with Vanderbilt's Lake Shore & Michigan Southern. It is my understanding that the boiler jackets of its locomotives were actually nickel plated,

A-HEMMMM!! =) http://www.nkphts.org/history.html#name

t'WAS THE RAILS MY GOOD FRIEND, the "boiler story" was a good one though, I'll have to admit. =)

[BRAKIE]

The Story I like on how the NKP got it's name is this.The wife to her husband that just bought the NKP.You paid what? At that price the tracks should be Nickel Plated!. No,this was not my idea,I remember a cartoon in a old railroad magazine and thought I would share it with you.

[Anonymous]

:) Yes, I'm glad you did share that!!

That woman souds much more reasonable than most I've known...If "I" were the subject, "Wife" would have said "Oh, you bought it for me, how nice"

[Anonymous]

The name Nickel Plate came about back when plating was new-ish, and was meant to confer some sense of high quality, just the same as "turbo-charged taste" would be used to confer some sense of "powerful" today. In neither case would nickel or as turbo charger be expected in any literal sense. I model the Nickel Plate, look for information at the Yahoo Nickel Plate egroup, or look for John Rehor's book "The Nickel Plate Story". It's surely a Bible on the subject. Anyway, a newspaper (in Norwalk, Ohio??) came up with the "nickel plated railroad" moniker back in the early 1880's, the name stuck, but was not made official until much later.
The Nickel Plate travelled through Cleveland to Buffalo, and had a big shop in Conneaut, Oh. In 1949 they leased the Wheeling & Lake Erie, which went from N. Ohio down to - Wheeling (well, except for the last couple miles, too long for here). So, N. Ohio to Buffalo and Wheeling also had a big presence, the NKP had headquarters in the Cleveland Terminal Tower.
Dean

[Anonymous]

Re Enobiko's comments on the Wheeling WV area. I grew up a few miles north of Wheeling (Follansbee) and am very familiar with the area. (My wife is from Wheeling) The W&LE entered Wheeling across a double track bridge on which only one track was laid at the north end of Wheeling (before they annexed Warwood) that was owned by Wheeling Terminal Railway. The line went through a tunnel after crossing the Ohio to feed the steel industry in Wheeling. I can remember a freight office in downtown Wheeling with a large sign reading "Norfolk and Western". Sadly all is now gone. There has not been a train over the bridge since the early sixties and the bridge was removed about 10 years ago. I have a picture in my office of the bridge being dynamited with the end of one span in the water. This is a sad commentary on an area with loads of rail history. We all learned (those of us who lived in West Virginia and took state history) about the B&O reaching Wheeling from Grafton. in the 1850's. Today all is gone. The beautiful B&O station in Wheeling has its elevated track platform removed and is now used for West Virginia Northern College. Saw many a B&O steam engine with a Vanderbilt tender stopped in the station. The reminants of the WV section of the W&LE is operated by CSX to serve the remaining steel industry. The B&O lines from Grafton, Washington PA, and Ohio points are abandoned with Wheeling' sole rail connection being a stub line up the Ohio from Parkersburg. Even the mighty PRR line from Weirton to Wheeling has been abandoned south of Wellsburg. My picture of the dynamiting of the WTRR bridge also shows the abandoned PRR right of way littered with abandoned autos.The tunnel at the end of the WTRR bridge is still intact, however a cave in has occurred. As we know the rust belt of the country is dying and along with it the rails. The PRR double track mainline from Pittsburgh to St. Lewis has been single tracked most of the way and from Mingo Junction to Columbus has been sold to short line operator Columbus & Ohio River. Guess I was born about 50 years too late.

[JoeKoh]

Talked to a guy in Malinta Ohio.He has pics of the DT&I and NKP crossover and tower there.the line ran off from continental to Toledo. That line is now all gone except from Grand Rapids to Toledo where the Toledo lake erie and Western runs excursions trains.There are alot of ghost lines here in nw ohio too.
stay safe
Joe

[Anonymous]

I've got one NKP story. Many years ago, the job I was working hauled an electric generator. The move was accompanied by a caboose that had been converted to a rider car, so an attendant could stay with the move. I got to talking with the rider. Seems he had been a locomotive engineer on the NKP. He retired early account of health problems, but a friend arranged for him to work these special moves whenever he wanted to go. He said he'd never forget when N&W took over NKP, "You walk into the new Super's Office; he'd just come over from N&W. First thing you saw as you walked in the door was a huge Confederate flag hanging on the wall directly behind him; next thing you'd notice was a brass plate on his desk facing you. It said, 'WE WON'"

[Wdlgln005]

Living in Nashville, I have come across the NC&StL. It's known as the Dixie Line until 1945 when L&N merged it.

There is a Vanderbilt connection. The old Commodore donated some money to start a university here. Their sport teams are called Commodores. Mostly, they get to play other pro teams in the SEC like Florida & Alabama.

The NC&StL ran from Atlanta thru Chattanooga to Nashville, then had a line running into southern Ky. The line was involved in a lot of Civil War battles.
A Yellojacket is parked in Centennial Park near the Parthenon. Apparently, their roundhouse used to be accross the street, but no more.

[daveklepper]

Wasn't a line that became part of the NC&StL the site of the Civil War (or War between the States if you prefer) Great Locomotive Chase? "The Andrews Raid" Dave Klepper
[e-mail]

[Anonymous]

NC&StL's entrance to Atlanta was through the Western & Atlantic. W&A is still owned by the STate of Georgia, and leased to the NC&StL, then L&N and now CSX.