Similar experience at a Jerusalem store this morning:
There was a bin of ladies' undies with a 19.95 for three sign. I saw three men's draws in the pile, my size, white, the color I wanted, took them to the cashier. She wanted 37.00 I took her to the bin. She said, But that's just for the ladies undies. We argued and the store manager came over and pointed out that the sign did indeed just refer to ladies' undies. I asked: "Why not give me the extra bargain for showing you the stocking errror?" He said that would get him fired, so I paid, extra 17.05.
Maybe off topic but relevant. Dave
As a high school student in the early 1950s I had occasion to wander all over New York, including Penn Station.
The posted photos make the main concourse look like the Taj Mahal. In person, it was dingy, filthy and just plain ugly. I, for one, felt no sense of loss when the air space was used for the New Madison Square Garden (which was never a garden and is now nowhere near Madison Square...)
Chuck
.....Note in the 3 pictures of the main concourse where one departed to tracks, down level{s}....The flooring contained glass blocks to allow light to filter down to the first track level.
I believe that floor was extended {I don't know when}, over along each side of the stairways that led down to track level at some time.
Quentin
schlimm I don't think many folks who appreciate good architecture would sum up Penn Station with the phrase, "waste of vertical space." http://www.nyc-architecture.com/GON/GON004.htm
I don't think many folks who appreciate good architecture would sum up Penn Station with the phrase, "waste of vertical space."
http://www.nyc-architecture.com/GON/GON004.htm
So very true, Penn Station was designed to move people and it did that very efficiently, look at the numbers for 1944!!! A waste of verticle space, unlikely...Vincent Skully the author of the book American Architecture and Urbanism wrote of Penn Station, "Through it one entered the city like a god". Of the aftermath of its destruction he wrote, "One scuttles in now like a rat".
Imagine the celebration if it survived long enough to see it's 100th year. It was a masterpiece.
Oops. My wasted space is horizontal.
.....Well said. And thanks for posting the wonderful photos, post cards, etc....and data re: Penn Station. I was in it when the main concourse was filled similar as in one of your posted photos. {WWII}.
And how about that "Art Deco" Greyhound Bus Terminal. And the buses. I remember when those kinds {models}, of Greyhound Buses coming thru our little home town in Pennsylvania..{Stoystown}. Our main st. was rt. 30. In fact I rode on one of those buses...Driver in spify uniform, including leather leggings.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
The New York Central as early as 1954 had plans to build a new structure over Grand Central's lower levels. The idea abandonded in 1955 but basically laid to rest as the proposal resurfaced in 1968 by the Penn Central. New Yorkers realizing the arcitecual masterpiece of Penn Station being razed fought any consideration for the same to Grand Central and a court action was put in place. This action was upheld by the Supreme Court and the station saved from the same fate as Penn Station. In both actions the reason was to obtain revenue for the struggling railroads.
Renovations to Grand Central over the past 30 plus years have improved its accessability, thankfully it also restored a great building. As to Penn Station, a move to save it was unsucessful, but if it were we would today be thankful such a masterpiece was saved. Its demise opened the eyes to preserving the greatness of our past. As mentioned above rail stations across America are great examples of what railroading once was.
....Thanks Paul for the Web site reference.
aegrotatio As beautiful as the above-ground station might have been, it was a terrible waste of vertical space. Commuters wouldn't even see the grandness of the station after the concourse floor was extended over the tracks, and intercity travellers exiting the station would take stairs up to the street or down to the subways. Only departing travellers would see anything, and have nowhere to sit! The vast majority of all travellers at NY Penn would not really notice much difference in today's Penn Station except the color of the walls and the new TV screens and air conditioning. There was no need to go upstairs, and upstairs was where all the grandeur is. Compare this to Grand Central Terminal, where the main floor is where all the action happens, and is a big reason why it still exists today: It's both efficient *and* beautiful, not just merely beautiful. I think that this, more than anything else, accelerated NY Penn's destruction above level C after 60 years.
Compare this to Grand Central Terminal, where the main floor is where all the action happens, and is a big reason why it still exists today: It's both efficient *and* beautiful, not just merely beautiful.
I think that this, more than anything else, accelerated NY Penn's destruction above level C after 60 years.
That's a novel point to me, though I'm not familiar enough with that Penn Station to know if it is true or not - but it seems credible enough. If the space wasn't strictly 'necessary' to be used with each trip, but instead was on a bypass or optional route, and lacked the seating functionality - yeah, it wouldn't have much to commend its continued existence. On the other hand, from personal experience I can attest that the main floors of Grand Central, Washington Union Station, and 30th St. Station in Philadelphia are either pretty well unavoidable from the street access, or useful enough to make it worthwhile to go there.
Quentin - here's a link to a website for the 'new' Penn Station, a/k/a "Moynihan Station", with lots of sub-pages:
http://www.newpennstation.org/site/
Briefly, as you'll see, it's still 'on track' in some slow way - it now seems to be going through plan and architecture reviews and environmental assessments, etc.
- Paul North.
.....Have to say I've not seen Penn Station noted like that before....Wasted vertical space....
We'll I'm certainly no expert on the "space" consideration. But didn't the cathedral like structure have value of being the first sight of NYC as one arrived and came up into the above ground magnificant part{s} of it.. As a symbol of greatness, part of NYC....And of course, the Pennsylvania RR.
I very much like railroad architecture...{all structural architecture}, and I thought it certainly was impressive. I am very pleased GCT was "restored" some years ago, as it is beautiful in my eyes too. But I've never been in it.
Question: Is any work actually being done to create Penn Station over in the Farley P O building.....As proposed by Sen. Moynihan...?
As beautiful as the above-ground station might have been, it was a terrible waste of vertical space. Commuters wouldn't even see the grandness of the station after the concourse floor was extended over the tracks, and intercity travellers exiting the station would take stairs up to the street or down to the subways. Only departing travellers would see anything, and have nowhere to sit! The vast majority of all travellers at NY Penn would not really notice much difference in today's Penn Station except the color of the walls and the new TV screens and air conditioning. There was no need to go upstairs, and upstairs was where all the grandeur is.
"Some difficulty was caused by the company's ruling that 14 cents excess fare must be collected of those who came through the tunnel with tickets reading to Long Island City or Flatbush Avenue, Brooklyn. The smoking car on a train from Rockaway Beach which left Jamaica at 4:40 A.M. contained several protestants. One of them held a commutation ticket. He argued a while and finally handed over 15 cents, with the remark: "Keep the change - my contribution to the tunnels." Another smoker offered to draw a check on the National City Bank for 14 cents. A third declined to pay anything and asked the conductor to put him off under the river. The conductor declined to stop the train for this purpose." http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/09/08/way-back-machine-the-l-i-r-r-reaches-manhattan/?ref=nyregion
"Some difficulty was caused by the company's ruling that 14 cents excess fare must be collected of those who came through the tunnel with tickets reading to Long Island City or Flatbush Avenue, Brooklyn. The smoking car on a train from Rockaway Beach which left Jamaica at 4:40 A.M. contained several protestants. One of them held a commutation ticket. He argued a while and finally handed over 15 cents, with the remark: "Keep the change - my contribution to the tunnels." Another smoker offered to draw a check on the National City Bank for 14 cents. A third declined to pay anything and asked the conductor to put him off under the river. The conductor declined to stop the train for this purpose."
http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/09/08/way-back-machine-the-l-i-r-r-reaches-manhattan/?ref=nyregion
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