http://www.progressiverailroading.com/news/article.asp?id=24264
Is NS accurate in saying that this is the biggest RR engineering project of the century? I guess it depends on how you quantify that.
I'd have to think that the Alameda Corridor in LA was a bigger spend and an immense amount of engineering, given the impacts to the community (streets, utilities, etc.)
Maybe in terms of pure RR engineering, the NS project would be bigger.
Actually, what the news blurb said is that it's "the most ambitious railroad engineering project of the past century". Either way, how do you measure that ? And - no, I would not consider this to be the top one, much as it is to be admired. Besides the Alameda Corridor of the early 2000's, there's the 1970's BN Powder River Basin line, SR's early 1960'S "Rathole" improvements, Amtrak's NYC-BOS electrification of the late 1990's, Santa Fe's Ash Fork - Williams - Crookston line relocation of the late 1950's, and my candidate - the PRR's electrification of the 1929-1939 time frame.
- Paul North.
Paul,
I would give NS greatest of this century, but of the last, the 20th, no way. I would nominate PRR's Penn Station project in its entirety with honorable mention to construction of the entire Spokane Portland & Seattle, GN's new Cascade Tunnel/Chumstick Line Change/Appleyard, and SP's new main via Klamath Falls, Oregon.
The measure would be easy, real (inflation adjusted) investment.
Kudos to NS for doing the project. I presume they know the traffic will be there to pay for it. The traffic is the important issue.
Mac
I forgot to add to my above list the CP's Rogers Pass new track alignment and Mount MacDonald Tunnel, etc., which was constructed in the 1984 - 1988 time frame
NS's blurb said the "last 100 years" [emphasis added - PDN], so I would only include those projects that were mostly performed in the time frame from 1910 onwards. I believe Penn Station was completed in 1910, so it just misses that NS-imposed limitation - I have insufficient knowledge of the others mentioned by Mac to know whether they would fit within that time frame or not. Otherwise, I agree with Mac.
But we're just 'kvetching' about it here. I'm much happier that NS saw fit to do the project, and that it has been completed, albeit more expensively to NS than anticipated. I had the good fortune to attend a too-short 1/2 hour presentation on it by NS' Chief Engineer of Design and Construction, James N. Carter, Jr., at the AREMA Conference in Orlando onn Tuesday morning of last week. One point he emphasized was the excellent cooperation from the Operating Dept. in detouring and re-routing trains so that the construction forces could have the 'track time' they needed to accomplish meaningful work in each 'window', which varied through the days of the week according to where/ which tunnel was involved.
The quote in "Progressive" was "in the past century". I took that to mean the 20th century, you took in as the past 100 years. Either way it is total bombast.
Taking the last 100 years would eliminate Penn Station and the SP&S. I suspect the PRR electirification would easily win the title in the last 100 years.
PNWRMNM Paul, . Either way it is total bombast. The Progressive article certainly leaves them open to criticism. No mention of the rest of the world? The many tunnel projects including Chunnel, Japan's , Swiss,. Then what about the trans Siberian ? don't remember when it was built? Australian expansion to Darwin? Any way total Bombast! I suspect the PRR electirification would easily win the title in the last 100 years. You probably are right for the US I estimate in today's dollars at least $2.5 B maybe more. Mac
. Either way it is total bombast.
The Progressive article certainly leaves them open to criticism. No mention of the rest of the world? The many tunnel projects including Chunnel, Japan's , Swiss,. Then what about the trans Siberian ? don't remember when it was built? Australian expansion to Darwin? Any way total Bombast!
I suspect the PRR electirification would easily win the title in the last 100 years.
You probably are right for the US I estimate in today's dollars at least $2.5 B maybe more.
Great project called out above and many, arguably were more ambitious as measured by various scales.
quote without comment -- a press release from today, September 9, 2010:
September 9, 2010
RADFORD, VA. – Norfolk Southern’s Heartland Corridor – one of the most extensive railroad engineering projects in modern times and a template for public-private partnerships that strengthen the nation’s transportation infrastructure – officially opened for business today.
A ceremony at the railroad’s recently enlarged Cowan Tunnel near Radford marked the occasion, as Norfolk Southern Train 233 pulled through at 11 a.m. with a consist of 148 double-stack containers moving to the Midwest. Train 233 paused near the 3,302-foot tunnel’s western portal, where it was greeted by the corridor’s partners, designers, and builders, as well as news media and NS officers and employees.
“This is a remarkable achievement, and it marks a notable date in transportation history,” NS CEO Wick Moorman told the group. “Together we have shown what can be accomplished when the right partners work together for the right goals. The Heartland Corridor’s completion is not an end but rather the start of an era of new thinking, new resolve, and new optimism in which business, communities, and the public sector find creative ways to power the American economy.”
The Heartland Corridor is a public-private partnership between NS and Virginia, West Virginia, Ohio, and the federal government to create the shortest, fastest route for double-stack container trains moving between the Port of Virginia and the Midwest. The new routing improves transit time from Norfolk, Va., to Chicago from four days to three and is nearly 250 miles shorter than previous circuitous routings.
To achieve that, NS raised vertical clearances on 28 tunnels and removed 24 overhead obstacles on one of its main lines connecting the Mid-Atlantic to the Midwest. Construction began in Oct. 2007 and involved modifying 5.7 miles of tunnels through roof excavation and liner replacement, arched roof notching, and track lowering and realignment.
The line dates back to the late 19th Century and traditionally has carried mostly coal traffic. Today, the Heartland Corridor improvements provide more capacity, speed, and reliability not just for coal trains but for the 20-foot, three-inch-high container trains that carry a diverse range of products required for international commerce and consumer demand.
On behalf of Virginia Governor Bob McDonnell, Secretary of Transportation Sean T. Connaughton said, “The Heartland Corridor will significantly advance Virginia’s economy and transportation network. This project will improve the economic competitiveness of the Port of Virginia and spur economic development in Southside and Southwest Virginia through new intermodal facilities. The strong partnership between Norfolk Southern and the Commonwealth continues to move Virginia into the future.”
The Heartland Corridor and Norfolk Southern’s other public-private partnerships, such as the Crescent Corridor program of improvements to infrastructure and other facilities through 13 states from Louisiana to New Jersey, also offer a number of social benefits.
“The U.S. Department of Transportation is proud to be a partner, along with Ohio, West Virginia, and Virginia, in making this historic project a reality. The Heartland Corridor will reduce highway congestion and fuel consumption, while improving air quality and transportation safety. For too long, rail has been the forgotten mode, but today’s celebration shows it is more indispensable than ever as an integral part of our national transportation system. On behalf of President Obama and Secretary of Transportation Ray LaHood, we congratulate Norfolk Southern on its completion and inauguration,” said Joseph C. Szabo, federal railroad administrator.
Today’s program at Cowan Tunnel was one of three events related to the Heartland opening. An open house on Sept. 8 at the Rickenbacker Intermodal Terminal in Columbus, Ohio, highlighted the freight transfer facility that serves as the corridor’s western anchor. A gathering on Sept. 13 in Prichard, W.Va., will feature one of the first eastbound intermodal trains on the route.
“Demand for rail freight service in the U.S. is expected to nearly double by 2035, and that’s on a national transportation network that everyone agrees already is sorely stressed,” Moorman reminded the Cowan Tunnel group. “As recently as several years ago, the crystal ball was too cloudy to provide a roadmap for meeting the coming challenges. Now, the Heartland Corridor provides a clear and workable vision of the way forward.”
Norfolk Southern Corporation (NYSE: NSC) is one of the nation’s premier transportation companies. Its Norfolk Southern Railway subsidiary operates approximately 21,000 route miles in 22 states and the District of Columbia, serves every major container port in the eastern United States, and provides efficient connections to other rail carriers. Norfolk Southern operates the most extensive intermodal network in the East and is a major transporter of coal and industrial products.
(Media) Frank Brown, 757-629-2710 (fsbrown@nscorp.com)
(Investors) Leanne Marilley, 757-629-2861 (leanne.marilley@nscorp.com)
Today I received an e-mail from Trains about renewing my subscription, and it featured the upcoming November 2010 70th Anniversary issue. One of the "highlights" is supposed to be the "70 greatest engineering feats of all time", so I suppose we'll have plenty to debate about then . . .
On other threads are comments about the newly-released song "Raising the Roof", as written and performed by the NS musical group, The Lawmen. Here are the links to it, for anyone who is interested - it's about 3 mins. 18 secs. long, if I remember correctly:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUFpx91KKWM
http://www.thefutureneedsus.com/project-updates/heartland-corridor/
http://www.thefutureneedsus.com/latest-news/media/category/heartland-corridor/
Well, "of all time" begs a lot of time, but if the scope were limited to the 20th Century, I wonder if the RR bridge across the St. Lawrence in Quebec would count? Still very impressive. Indiana U Press has a whole book about it.
A question from someone who is completely unfamiliar with that area. The release above states the route dates back to the 19th Century. Which companies originally owned the route, and from where to where. Any other insights or historical info would be appreciated. Thanks.
Bruce
So shovel the coal, let this rattler roll.
"A Train is a Place Going Somewhere" CP Rail Public Timetable
"O. S. Irricana"
. . . __ . ______
AgentKid A question from someone who is completely unfamiliar with that area. The release above states the route dates back to the 19th Century. Which companies originally owned the route, and from where to where. Any other insights or historical info would be appreciated. Thanks. Bruce
The line from Norfolk VA to Columbus OH was part of the Norfolk & Western Railway, and was completed in 1892. From Columbus to Bellevue OH was built by the Sandusky & Columbus Short Line in 1893. It became part of the Pennsylvania RR until acquired by N&W in 1964. And from Bellevue to Chicago it was the New York, Chicago & St Louis (Nickel Plate). That line was completed in 1882, and was also acquired by the N&W in 1964. The branch from Columbus to Cincinnati was mostly New York Central, with some PRR. Norfolk Southern got that line when Conrail was split up in 1999.
Thanks Dale, I am going to have to add the
nanaimo73 Sandusky & Columbus Short Line
Sandusky & Columbus Short Line
to my ever increasing list of railroads I had never heard of before.
Bruce, do you have the following, which were predecessors of the N&W: Norfolk & Petersburg (between Norfolk and Petersburg), South Side (between Petersburg and Lynchburg), and Virginia & Tennessee (between Lynchburg and Bristol, via Walton, where the line to Bluefield split off)? All of these were in existence by 1868. In 1870, they were merged to form the Atlantic, Mississippi & Ohio, and about 1881 the road was reorganized as the Norfolk and Western.
Johnny
Then later on, Allen added vaguely wasn't the N&W owned by the Pennsy for the longest time? As witness both lines' fondness for Tuscan Red livery during the passenger-train era.
A curiosity that gave a lot of folks a hard time on an earlier quiz topic was to ask which RR started passenger service at oint point, handed off to another later down the line, and then resume service under the original line. (Notice that is not a linear Milwaukee/NP or CB&Q/WP (or was it D&RGW) and WP.
Well, I've implied the answer. North-South trains on the Southern Rwy that did not work their main line (DC - Charlotte - Atlanta) went via Roanoke and Bristol (DC - Charlottesvile VA - Lynchburg (diverge from Sou. Rwy to N&W) Roanoke - Bristol TN/VA - Knoxville - Chattanooga - Birmingham. One train, the Pelican, went to New Orleans; another, the Birmingham Special, gave its destination; IIRC the Tennessean went thru Chattanooga and then to Memphis, bearing in mind that there were no rail thru routes going E-W from Eastern or Cenral Tennessee west across the state and may not be now, for all I know. (Really, it wasn't until the building of I-40 that it became not an ordeal to drive from Knoxville to Nashville, thence to Memphis.) Tennessee was and is a very schizophrenic state culturally and economically, though as a transplanted Illinoisian I shoudn't exclaim over that too much, I guess.
I remember up until 1970 that the Birmingham Special would pass through Emory, VA, 25 mi. NE of Bristol, the VA/TN state line, as a whiste stop. The train was pulled by Sou Rwy engines, A+B units out of the EMD fold, over the N&W stretch. OTOH the Pelican over the N&W section was pulled by one of their EMD's, probably commissioned as passenger locomotives but (remember, N&W got in on the postwar dieselization quite late), not a "carbody," more the type that looked like a freight engine or Geep. I never knew the N&W to use any carbodies for freight or passenger; but if I'm wrong please let me know. (I was shocked recently to hear that the POCOHONTAS used streamlined equipment. Dad and I took the Birmingham Special to New York City in 1969. A friend of mine took the PELICAN from Emory down to Bristol a year later to see a re-release of Hitchcock's film PSYCHO at the Paramount Theater on State Street in Bristol (Tennessee side). I only recall the PELICAN using N&W equipment, so I guess the train was more of a haulage than a trackage; am I using the terms correctly?
The Saturday prior to the Amtrak takeover and the cessation of all passenger service on that route, and with my parents' help (I was not yet driving), I took what was left of one of the trains from Emory up to Marion, two or three stops up. It was a pathetic thing then, one or two coaches hauled by one of those old N&W blues (with orange lettering IIRC). The train was mobbed by preadolescent childen just as I detrained in Marion; I found out later it was a couple of churches' Sunday School classes whose teachers arranged for them to Ride a Train while the experience was still accessible. Those of you who keep your TRAINS magazines, look back a month or two and you'll see the teeny stub of Roanoke-Bristol that indicated passenger service on that line at the time Amtrak took over. Naturally, I started out with an antagonism to Amtrak!
Sorry if this rant was inapproriate.
I posted this on another NS Heartland Corridor thread yesterday. Think it may answer some questions on what lines were used before the expansion.
Being an investor in NS I was very interested in the Heartland Corridor opening. The press releases in the trade journals said the corridor would save about 250 miles on the trip between Chicago and Norfolk. I initially questioned this mileage reduction as i thought the work was just the opening of tunnel clearances and minor line relocations. To clarify this I contacted NS and received a very nice and informative reply from them. Yes, the corridor could not handle double stack trains until the upgrades were complete. Prior to that time double stacks were routed through the Shenandoah valley to Harrisburg then west on the Pennsylvania line or through Charlotte NC then up to Chicago. Both of these routes were significantly longer and the Heartland Corridor sped up the travel time and shortened the route. I commend NS for their great work in improving the route to Chicago. I am sure that all other investors in NS will also be happy with the improvements to the bottom line.
Al-in-chgo: I must challenge you on several of these items.
al-in-chgo Well, I've implied the answer. North-South trains on the Southern Rwy that did not work their main line (DC - Charlotte - Atlanta) went via Roanoke and Bristol (DC - Charlottesvile VA - Lynchburg (diverge from Sou. Rwy to N&W) Roanoke - Bristol TN/VA - Knoxville - Chattanooga - Birmingham. One train, the Pelican, went to New Orleans; another, the Birmingham Special, gave its destination; IIRC the Tennessean went thru Chattanooga and then to Memphis, bearing in mind that there were no rail thru routes going E-W from Eastern or Cenral Tennessee west across the state and may not be now, for all I know. Technically the these trains did not O&D Wash but actually started and stopped on the PRR (different train #s as one PRR# was the Broadwsay trains) at NYP. However Southern did add and subtract many cars at WASH. (Really, it wasn't until the building of I-40 that it became not an ordeal to drive from Knoxville to Nashville, thence to Memphis.) Tennessee was and is a very schizophrenic state culturally and economically, though as a transplanted Illinoisian I shoudn't exclaim over that too much, I guess. Correct: the NE - SW mountain range between Knoxville and Nashville did not allow for a very decent train route (Tennessee Central only slow route ) I remember up until 1970 that the Birmingham Special would pass through Emory, VA, 25 mi. NE of Bristol, the VA/TN state line, as a whiste stop. The train was pulled by Sou Rwy engines, A+B units out of the EMD fold, over the N&W stretch. OTOH the Pelican over the N&W section was pulled by one of their EMD's, probably commissioned as passenger locomotives but (remember, N&W got in on the postwar dieselization quite late), not a "carbody," more the type that looked like a freight engine or Geep. I never knew the N&W to use any carbodies for freight or passenger; but if I'm wrong please let me know. N&W leased some ACL purple Es to allow removal of Js from passenger service and heard that they even painted some though N&W did not own them? Have heard that the N&W was not completely pleased with the A-1-A arrangement of the ACL units and operated GPs as available to those remaining routes? (I was shocked recently to hear that the POCOHONTAS used streamlined equipment. Dad and I took the Birmingham Special to New York City in 1969. A friend of mine took the PELICAN from Emory down to Bristol a year later to see a re-release of Hitchcock's film PSYCHO at the Paramount Theater on State Street in Bristol (Tennessee side). I only recall the PELICAN using N&W equipment, so I guess the train was more of a haulage than a trackage; am I using the terms correctly? The N&W operated all three trains with Js (+ the local #9 &10? Bristol - Roanoke)) until Jan 1, 1957. The Js went from Bristol - Roanoke and many times would be swapped for another J for the trip on to Lynchburg. At Lynchburg even though it was SOU tracks to the north the J would take the train 7 miles up the SOU main to Monroe ( a SOU division point ) and SOU diesels added there would pull train on to WASH. Do not know if SOU engine crews or N&W crews operated the Js. Conductors and other trainmen got on/off at Lynchburg. There was no servicing facilities at Lynchburg so the SOU roundhouse in Monroe was used for minor repairs. Southbound direction just the reverse. I have always maintained that until Jan 1, 1957 SOU operated steam? Guess the SOU servicing facilities at Monroe were closed as well A friend of mine took the PELICAN from Emory down to Bristol a year later to see a re-release of Hitchcock's film PSYCHO at the Paramount Theater on State Street in Bristol (Tennessee side). I only recall the PELICAN using N&W equipment, so I guess the train was more of a haulage than a trackage; am I using the terms correctly? Equipment consists up to fall 1958 were eclectic. 1. Tennessean (tr 45-46) was mostly stainless steel equipment including diners (SOU) and RPOs (one WASH- Chattanooga & one Chattanooga - Memphis which were SOU's only stainless steel RPOs). Sleepers to Memphis were stainless steel but Bristol would add sleepers (Nashville that used TC until TC stopped passenger service then NC&SL from Chatanooga and was faster. , Memphis;)(, Atlanta Birmingham earlier years) that were heavyweight pullmans westbound. Head end equipment almost anything including Baggage ( N&W, SOU, PRR sometimes) and mostly PRR and REA express cars. 2. Pelican (tr 41-42): Almost all SOU equipment. Some N&W coaches. Head end same as above except SOU heavyweight RPOs and baggage cars (WASH-NOL). Diners WASH - New Orleans heavyweight SOU except one train set had N&W diner that was sometimes changed out at Roanoke. When diner cut back to Roanoke - BHM train sets would alternate 2-SOU - 1- N&W. Pullmans: Heavyweight NYP - Dallas then Shereveport (by way of Meridian). NYP - NOL, WASH - NOL, Bristol - NYP or WASH, Bristol - Harrisburg (my grandfather as pullman conductor), Bristol - Richmond stainless steel car from Tennessean so ocassionaly would get a foreign car from Richmond that would be sent back that night. 3. Birmingham special: ( tr 17-18) all Head end same as Pelican SOU RPO and diner ( O&Ds changed many times and final diner Roanoke - WASH). Heavyweight sleepers NYP/WASH - BHM; Wash - Memphis connection at CHA for awhile. 4. SOU Diesels; a. North of Monroe anything they had. b. Tennessean Bristol - Memphis Older Alcoa cab units (DLs) and last ones were PA-4s (6900- 6905) changed out at Chatanooga as necessary as only 4 needed to hold schedule. c. Pelican EMD 2F units As and/or &B from Bristol occasional heater car. d. Birmingham Special EMD F units. 5. On Jan 1,1957 Js removed and 2 - SOU E units placed on all trains at WASH and run thru to where ever. Refuled for a while from truck at Bristol station. Watered at the station from new water lines. SOU banked the PA-4s and moved them to Pegram shops in Atlanta as back up power and PA-4s were retired sometime after 1959. N&W's local that was schedule to arrive Bristol at 1305 but depart at 1300 was pulled by a GP-9 steam generator loco in the 750 -7770 (?) number group. Local Loco was immediately turned on station wye and went back delaying 1300 local departure most days after coupling onto new local consist. 6. During heavy load times such as Christmas stainless steel equipment would disappear to operate on Crescent, Southerner, Royal palm even sometimes 2nd sections of those trains with the substitution of N&W and SOU heavy weight equipment on all Bristol and other trains. Also with thru SOU engines they were sometimes helped by 1 or 2 N&W GP-9s equipped with at least a passenger train signal line to operate over the N&W hog back. on The Saturday prior to the Amtrak takeover and the cessation of all passenger service on that route, and with my parents' help (I was not yet driving), I took what was left of one of the trains from Emory up to Marion, two or three stops up. It was a pathetic thing then, one or two coaches hauled by one of those old N&W blues (with orange lettering IIRC). probably an old nickel plate loco This was after all SOU south of Bristol service had ended. Interestingly your train continued on to WASH and was one of the SOU trains continued Lynchburg - WASH as renumbered trains 7&8 no name on same schedule with a SOU FP-A and one heavy weight coach. The train was mobbed by preadolescent childen just as I detrained in Marion; I found out later it was a couple of churches' Sunday School classes whose teachers arranged for them to Ride a Train while the experience was still accessible. Those of you who keep your TRAINS magazines, look back a month or two and you'll see the teeny stub of Roanoke-Bristol that indicated passenger service on that line at the time Amtrak took over. Naturally, I started out with an antagonism to Amtrak! Sorry if this rant was inapproriate.
Well, I've implied the answer. North-South trains on the Southern Rwy that did not work their main line (DC - Charlotte - Atlanta) went via Roanoke and Bristol (DC - Charlottesvile VA - Lynchburg (diverge from Sou. Rwy to N&W) Roanoke - Bristol TN/VA - Knoxville - Chattanooga - Birmingham. One train, the Pelican, went to New Orleans; another, the Birmingham Special, gave its destination; IIRC the Tennessean went thru Chattanooga and then to Memphis, bearing in mind that there were no rail thru routes going E-W from Eastern or Cenral Tennessee west across the state and may not be now, for all I know.
Technically the these trains did not O&D Wash but actually started and stopped on the PRR (different train #s as one PRR# was the Broadwsay trains) at NYP. However Southern did add and subtract many cars at WASH.
(Really, it wasn't until the building of I-40 that it became not an ordeal to drive from Knoxville to Nashville, thence to Memphis.) Tennessee was and is a very schizophrenic state culturally and economically, though as a transplanted Illinoisian I shoudn't exclaim over that too much, I guess.
Correct: the NE - SW mountain range between Knoxville and Nashville did not allow for a very decent train route (Tennessee Central only slow route )
I remember up until 1970 that the Birmingham Special would pass through Emory, VA, 25 mi. NE of Bristol, the VA/TN state line, as a whiste stop. The train was pulled by Sou Rwy engines, A+B units out of the EMD fold, over the N&W stretch. OTOH the Pelican over the N&W section was pulled by one of their EMD's, probably commissioned as passenger locomotives but (remember, N&W got in on the postwar dieselization quite late), not a "carbody," more the type that looked like a freight engine or Geep. I never knew the N&W to use any carbodies for freight or passenger; but if I'm wrong please let me know.
N&W leased some ACL purple Es to allow removal of Js from passenger service and heard that they even painted some though N&W did not own them? Have heard that the N&W was not completely pleased with the A-1-A arrangement of the ACL units and operated GPs as available to those remaining routes?
(I was shocked recently to hear that the POCOHONTAS used streamlined equipment. Dad and I took the Birmingham Special to New York City in 1969. A friend of mine took the PELICAN from Emory down to Bristol a year later to see a re-release of Hitchcock's film PSYCHO at the Paramount Theater on State Street in Bristol (Tennessee side). I only recall the PELICAN using N&W equipment, so I guess the train was more of a haulage than a trackage; am I using the terms correctly?
The N&W operated all three trains with Js (+ the local #9 &10? Bristol - Roanoke)) until Jan 1, 1957. The Js went from Bristol - Roanoke and many times would be swapped for another J for the trip on to Lynchburg. At Lynchburg even though it was SOU tracks to the north the J would take the train 7 miles up the SOU main to Monroe ( a SOU division point ) and SOU diesels added there would pull train on to WASH. Do not know if SOU engine crews or N&W crews operated the Js. Conductors and other trainmen got on/off at Lynchburg.
There was no servicing facilities at Lynchburg so the SOU roundhouse in Monroe was used for minor repairs. Southbound direction just the reverse. I have always maintained that until Jan 1, 1957 SOU operated steam? Guess the SOU servicing facilities at Monroe were closed as well
A friend of mine took the PELICAN from Emory down to Bristol a year later to see a re-release of Hitchcock's film PSYCHO at the Paramount Theater on State Street in Bristol (Tennessee side). I only recall the PELICAN using N&W equipment, so I guess the train was more of a haulage than a trackage; am I using the terms correctly?
Equipment consists up to fall 1958 were eclectic.
1. Tennessean (tr 45-46) was mostly stainless steel equipment including diners (SOU) and RPOs (one WASH- Chattanooga & one Chattanooga - Memphis which were SOU's only stainless steel RPOs). Sleepers to Memphis were stainless steel but Bristol would add sleepers (Nashville that used TC until TC stopped passenger service then NC&SL from Chatanooga and was faster. , Memphis;)(, Atlanta Birmingham earlier years) that were heavyweight pullmans westbound. Head end equipment almost anything including Baggage ( N&W, SOU, PRR sometimes) and mostly PRR and REA express cars.
2. Pelican (tr 41-42): Almost all SOU equipment. Some N&W coaches. Head end same as above except SOU heavyweight RPOs and baggage cars (WASH-NOL). Diners WASH - New Orleans heavyweight SOU except one train set had N&W diner that was sometimes changed out at Roanoke. When diner cut back to Roanoke - BHM train sets would alternate 2-SOU - 1- N&W. Pullmans: Heavyweight NYP - Dallas then Shereveport (by way of Meridian). NYP - NOL, WASH - NOL, Bristol - NYP or WASH, Bristol - Harrisburg (my grandfather as pullman conductor), Bristol - Richmond stainless steel car from Tennessean so ocassionaly would get a foreign car from Richmond that would be sent back that night.
3. Birmingham special: ( tr 17-18) all Head end same as Pelican SOU RPO and diner ( O&Ds changed many times and final diner Roanoke - WASH). Heavyweight sleepers NYP/WASH - BHM; Wash - Memphis connection at CHA for awhile.
4. SOU Diesels;
a. North of Monroe anything they had.
b. Tennessean Bristol - Memphis Older Alcoa cab units (DLs) and last ones were PA-4s (6900- 6905) changed out at Chatanooga as necessary as only 4 needed to hold schedule.
c. Pelican EMD 2F units As and/or &B from Bristol occasional heater car.
d. Birmingham Special EMD F units.
5. On Jan 1,1957 Js removed and 2 - SOU E units placed on all trains at WASH and run thru to where ever. Refuled for a while from truck at Bristol station. Watered at the station from new water lines. SOU banked the PA-4s and moved them to Pegram shops in Atlanta as back up power and PA-4s were retired sometime after 1959. N&W's local that was schedule to arrive Bristol at 1305 but depart at 1300 was pulled by a GP-9 steam generator loco in the 750 -7770 (?) number group. Local Loco was immediately turned on station wye and went back delaying 1300 local departure most days after coupling onto new local consist.
6. During heavy load times such as Christmas stainless steel equipment would disappear to operate on Crescent, Southerner, Royal palm even sometimes 2nd sections of those trains with the substitution of N&W and SOU heavy weight equipment on all Bristol and other trains. Also with thru SOU engines they were sometimes helped by 1 or 2 N&W GP-9s equipped with at least a passenger train signal line to operate over the N&W hog back. on
The Saturday prior to the Amtrak takeover and the cessation of all passenger service on that route, and with my parents' help (I was not yet driving), I took what was left of one of the trains from Emory up to Marion, two or three stops up. It was a pathetic thing then, one or two coaches hauled by one of those old N&W blues (with orange lettering IIRC). probably an old nickel plate loco
This was after all SOU south of Bristol service had ended. Interestingly your train continued on to WASH and was one of the SOU trains continued Lynchburg - WASH as renumbered trains 7&8 no name on same schedule with a SOU FP-A and one heavy weight coach.
The train was mobbed by preadolescent childen just as I detrained in Marion; I found out later it was a couple of churches' Sunday School classes whose teachers arranged for them to Ride a Train while the experience was still accessible. Those of you who keep your TRAINS magazines, look back a month or two and you'll see the teeny stub of Roanoke-Bristol that indicated passenger service on that line at the time Amtrak took over. Naturally, I started out with an antagonism to Amtrak!
Any other questions?
Unfortunately I have no source of information for any operations on the Bristol - Roanoke route after 1960.
blue streak 1 Al-in-chgo: I must challenge you on several of these items. al-in-chgo: Well, I've implied the answer. North-South trains on the Southern Rwy that did not work their main line (DC - Charlotte - Atlanta) went via Roanoke and Bristol (DC - Charlottesvile VA - Lynchburg (diverge from Sou. Rwy to N&W) Roanoke - Bristol TN/VA - Knoxville - Chattanooga - Birmingham. One train, the Pelican, went to New Orleans; another, the Birmingham Special, gave its destination; IIRC the Tennessean went thru Chattanooga and then to Memphis, bearing in mind that there were no rail thru routes going E-W from Eastern or Cenral Tennessee west across the state and may not be now, for all I know. Technically the these trains did not O&D Wash but actually started and stopped on the PRR (different train #s as one PRR# was the Broadwsay trains) at NYP. However Southern did add and subtract many cars at WASH. (Really, it wasn't until the building of I-40 that it became not an ordeal to drive from Knoxville to Nashville, thence to Memphis.) Tennessee was and is a very schizophrenic state culturally and economically, though as a transplanted Illinoisian I shoudn't exclaim over that too much, I guess. Correct: the NE - SW mountain range between Knoxville and Nashville did not allow for a very decent train route (Tennessee Central only slow route ) I remember up until 1970 that the Birmingham Special would pass through Emory, VA, 25 mi. NE of Bristol, the VA/TN state line, as a whiste stop. The train was pulled by Sou Rwy engines, A+B units out of the EMD fold, over the N&W stretch. OTOH the Pelican over the N&W section was pulled by one of their EMD's, probably commissioned as passenger locomotives but (remember, N&W got in on the postwar dieselization quite late), not a "carbody," more the type that looked like a freight engine or Geep. I never knew the N&W to use any carbodies for freight or passenger; but if I'm wrong please let me know. N&W leased some ACL purple Es to allow removal of Js from passenger service and heard that they even painted some though N&W did not own them? Have heard that the N&W was not completely pleased with the A-1-A arrangement of the ACL units and operated GPs as available to those remaining routes? (I was shocked recently to hear that the POCOHONTAS used streamlined equipment. Dad and I took the Birmingham Special to New York City in 1969. A friend of mine took the PELICAN from Emory down to Bristol a year later to see a re-release of Hitchcock's film PSYCHO at the Paramount Theater on State Street in Bristol (Tennessee side). I only recall the PELICAN using N&W equipment, so I guess the train was more of a haulage than a trackage; am I using the terms correctly? The N&W operated all three trains with Js (+ the local #9 &10? Bristol - Roanoke)) until Jan 1, 1957. The Js went from Bristol - Roanoke and many times would be swapped for another J for the trip on to Lynchburg. At Lynchburg even though it was SOU tracks to the north the J would take the train 7 miles up the SOU main to Monroe ( a SOU division point ) and SOU diesels added there would pull train on to WASH. Do not know if SOU engine crews or N&W crews operated the Js. Conductors and other trainmen got on/off at Lynchburg. There was no servicing facilities at Lynchburg so the SOU roundhouse in Monroe was used for minor repairs. Southbound direction just the reverse. I have always maintained that until Jan 1, 1957 SOU operated steam? Guess the SOU servicing facilities at Monroe were closed as well A friend of mine took the PELICAN from Emory down to Bristol a year later to see a re-release of Hitchcock's film PSYCHO at the Paramount Theater on State Street in Bristol (Tennessee side). I only recall the PELICAN using N&W equipment, so I guess the train was more of a haulage than a trackage; am I using the terms correctly? Equipment consists up to fall 1958 were eclectic. 1. Tennessean (tr 45-46) was mostly stainless steel equipment including diners (SOU) and RPOs (one WASH- Chattanooga & one Chattanooga - Memphis which were SOU's only stainless steel RPOs). Sleepers to Memphis were stainless steel but Bristol would add sleepers (Nashville that used TC until TC stopped passenger service then NC&SL from Chatanooga and was faster. , Memphis;)(, Atlanta Birmingham earlier years) that were heavyweight pullmans westbound. Head end equipment almost anything including Baggage ( N&W, SOU, PRR sometimes) and mostly PRR and REA express cars. 2. Pelican (tr 41-42): Almost all SOU equipment. Some N&W coaches. Head end same as above except SOU heavyweight RPOs and baggage cars (WASH-NOL). Diners WASH - New Orleans heavyweight SOU except one train set had N&W diner that was sometimes changed out at Roanoke. When diner cut back to Roanoke - BHM train sets would alternate 2-SOU - 1- N&W. Pullmans: Heavyweight NYP - Dallas then Shereveport (by way of Meridian). NYP - NOL, WASH - NOL, Bristol - NYP or WASH, Bristol - Harrisburg (my grandfather as pullman conductor), Bristol - Richmond stainless steel car from Tennessean so ocassionaly would get a foreign car from Richmond that would be sent back that night. 3. Birmingham special: ( tr 17-18) all Head end same as Pelican SOU RPO and diner ( O&Ds changed many times and final diner Roanoke - WASH). Heavyweight sleepers NYP/WASH - BHM; Wash - Memphis connection at CHA for awhile. 4. SOU Diesels; a. North of Monroe anything they had. b. Tennessean Bristol - Memphis Older Alcoa cab units (DLs) and last ones were PA-4s (6900- 6905) changed out at Chatanooga as necessary as only 4 needed to hold schedule. c. Pelican EMD 2F units As and/or &B from Bristol occasional heater car. d. Birmingham Special EMD F units. 5. On Jan 1,1957 Js removed and 2 - SOU E units placed on all trains at WASH and run thru to where ever. Refuled for a while from truck at Bristol station. Watered at the station from new water lines. SOU banked the PA-4s and moved them to Pegram shops in Atlanta as back up power and PA-4s were retired sometime after 1959. N&W's local that was schedule to arrive Bristol at 1305 but depart at 1300 was pulled by a GP-9 steam generator loco in the 750 -7770 (?) number group. Local Loco was immediately turned on station wye and went back delaying 1300 local departure most days after coupling onto new local consist. 6. During heavy load times such as Christmas stainless steel equipment would disappear to operate on Crescent, Southerner, Royal palm even sometimes 2nd sections of those trains with the substitution of N&W and SOU heavy weight equipment on all Bristol and other trains. Also with thru SOU engines they were sometimes helped by 1 or 2 N&W GP-9s equipped with at least a passenger train signal line to operate over the N&W hog back. on The Saturday prior to the Amtrak takeover and the cessation of all passenger service on that route, and with my parents' help (I was not yet driving), I took what was left of one of the trains from Emory up to Marion, two or three stops up. It was a pathetic thing then, one or two coaches hauled by one of those old N&W blues (with orange lettering IIRC). probably an old nickel plate loco This was after all SOU south of Bristol service had ended. Interestingly your train continued on to WASH and was one of the SOU trains continued Lynchburg - WASH as renumbered trains 7&8 no name on same schedule with a SOU FP-A and one heavy weight coach. The train was mobbed by preadolescent childen just as I detrained in Marion; I found out later it was a couple of churches' Sunday School classes whose teachers arranged for them to Ride a Train while the experience was still accessible. Those of you who keep your TRAINS magazines, look back a month or two and you'll see the teeny stub of Roanoke-Bristol that indicated passenger service on that line at the time Amtrak took over. Naturally, I started out with an antagonism to Amtrak! Sorry if this rant was inapproriate. Any other questions?
al-in-chgo: Well, I've implied the answer. North-South trains on the Southern Rwy that did not work their main line (DC - Charlotte - Atlanta) went via Roanoke and Bristol (DC - Charlottesvile VA - Lynchburg (diverge from Sou. Rwy to N&W) Roanoke - Bristol TN/VA - Knoxville - Chattanooga - Birmingham. One train, the Pelican, went to New Orleans; another, the Birmingham Special, gave its destination; IIRC the Tennessean went thru Chattanooga and then to Memphis, bearing in mind that there were no rail thru routes going E-W from Eastern or Cenral Tennessee west across the state and may not be now, for all I know. Technically the these trains did not O&D Wash but actually started and stopped on the PRR (different train #s as one PRR# was the Broadwsay trains) at NYP. However Southern did add and subtract many cars at WASH. (Really, it wasn't until the building of I-40 that it became not an ordeal to drive from Knoxville to Nashville, thence to Memphis.) Tennessee was and is a very schizophrenic state culturally and economically, though as a transplanted Illinoisian I shoudn't exclaim over that too much, I guess. Correct: the NE - SW mountain range between Knoxville and Nashville did not allow for a very decent train route (Tennessee Central only slow route ) I remember up until 1970 that the Birmingham Special would pass through Emory, VA, 25 mi. NE of Bristol, the VA/TN state line, as a whiste stop. The train was pulled by Sou Rwy engines, A+B units out of the EMD fold, over the N&W stretch. OTOH the Pelican over the N&W section was pulled by one of their EMD's, probably commissioned as passenger locomotives but (remember, N&W got in on the postwar dieselization quite late), not a "carbody," more the type that looked like a freight engine or Geep. I never knew the N&W to use any carbodies for freight or passenger; but if I'm wrong please let me know. N&W leased some ACL purple Es to allow removal of Js from passenger service and heard that they even painted some though N&W did not own them? Have heard that the N&W was not completely pleased with the A-1-A arrangement of the ACL units and operated GPs as available to those remaining routes? (I was shocked recently to hear that the POCOHONTAS used streamlined equipment. Dad and I took the Birmingham Special to New York City in 1969. A friend of mine took the PELICAN from Emory down to Bristol a year later to see a re-release of Hitchcock's film PSYCHO at the Paramount Theater on State Street in Bristol (Tennessee side). I only recall the PELICAN using N&W equipment, so I guess the train was more of a haulage than a trackage; am I using the terms correctly? The N&W operated all three trains with Js (+ the local #9 &10? Bristol - Roanoke)) until Jan 1, 1957. The Js went from Bristol - Roanoke and many times would be swapped for another J for the trip on to Lynchburg. At Lynchburg even though it was SOU tracks to the north the J would take the train 7 miles up the SOU main to Monroe ( a SOU division point ) and SOU diesels added there would pull train on to WASH. Do not know if SOU engine crews or N&W crews operated the Js. Conductors and other trainmen got on/off at Lynchburg. There was no servicing facilities at Lynchburg so the SOU roundhouse in Monroe was used for minor repairs. Southbound direction just the reverse. I have always maintained that until Jan 1, 1957 SOU operated steam? Guess the SOU servicing facilities at Monroe were closed as well A friend of mine took the PELICAN from Emory down to Bristol a year later to see a re-release of Hitchcock's film PSYCHO at the Paramount Theater on State Street in Bristol (Tennessee side). I only recall the PELICAN using N&W equipment, so I guess the train was more of a haulage than a trackage; am I using the terms correctly? Equipment consists up to fall 1958 were eclectic. 1. Tennessean (tr 45-46) was mostly stainless steel equipment including diners (SOU) and RPOs (one WASH- Chattanooga & one Chattanooga - Memphis which were SOU's only stainless steel RPOs). Sleepers to Memphis were stainless steel but Bristol would add sleepers (Nashville that used TC until TC stopped passenger service then NC&SL from Chatanooga and was faster. , Memphis;)(, Atlanta Birmingham earlier years) that were heavyweight pullmans westbound. Head end equipment almost anything including Baggage ( N&W, SOU, PRR sometimes) and mostly PRR and REA express cars. 2. Pelican (tr 41-42): Almost all SOU equipment. Some N&W coaches. Head end same as above except SOU heavyweight RPOs and baggage cars (WASH-NOL). Diners WASH - New Orleans heavyweight SOU except one train set had N&W diner that was sometimes changed out at Roanoke. When diner cut back to Roanoke - BHM train sets would alternate 2-SOU - 1- N&W. Pullmans: Heavyweight NYP - Dallas then Shereveport (by way of Meridian). NYP - NOL, WASH - NOL, Bristol - NYP or WASH, Bristol - Harrisburg (my grandfather as pullman conductor), Bristol - Richmond stainless steel car from Tennessean so ocassionaly would get a foreign car from Richmond that would be sent back that night. 3. Birmingham special: ( tr 17-18) all Head end same as Pelican SOU RPO and diner ( O&Ds changed many times and final diner Roanoke - WASH). Heavyweight sleepers NYP/WASH - BHM; Wash - Memphis connection at CHA for awhile. 4. SOU Diesels; a. North of Monroe anything they had. b. Tennessean Bristol - Memphis Older Alcoa cab units (DLs) and last ones were PA-4s (6900- 6905) changed out at Chatanooga as necessary as only 4 needed to hold schedule. c. Pelican EMD 2F units As and/or &B from Bristol occasional heater car. d. Birmingham Special EMD F units. 5. On Jan 1,1957 Js removed and 2 - SOU E units placed on all trains at WASH and run thru to where ever. Refuled for a while from truck at Bristol station. Watered at the station from new water lines. SOU banked the PA-4s and moved them to Pegram shops in Atlanta as back up power and PA-4s were retired sometime after 1959. N&W's local that was schedule to arrive Bristol at 1305 but depart at 1300 was pulled by a GP-9 steam generator loco in the 750 -7770 (?) number group. Local Loco was immediately turned on station wye and went back delaying 1300 local departure most days after coupling onto new local consist. 6. During heavy load times such as Christmas stainless steel equipment would disappear to operate on Crescent, Southerner, Royal palm even sometimes 2nd sections of those trains with the substitution of N&W and SOU heavy weight equipment on all Bristol and other trains. Also with thru SOU engines they were sometimes helped by 1 or 2 N&W GP-9s equipped with at least a passenger train signal line to operate over the N&W hog back. on The Saturday prior to the Amtrak takeover and the cessation of all passenger service on that route, and with my parents' help (I was not yet driving), I took what was left of one of the trains from Emory up to Marion, two or three stops up. It was a pathetic thing then, one or two coaches hauled by one of those old N&W blues (with orange lettering IIRC). probably an old nickel plate loco This was after all SOU south of Bristol service had ended. Interestingly your train continued on to WASH and was one of the SOU trains continued Lynchburg - WASH as renumbered trains 7&8 no name on same schedule with a SOU FP-A and one heavy weight coach. The train was mobbed by preadolescent childen just as I detrained in Marion; I found out later it was a couple of churches' Sunday School classes whose teachers arranged for them to Ride a Train while the experience was still accessible. Those of you who keep your TRAINS magazines, look back a month or two and you'll see the teeny stub of Roanoke-Bristol that indicated passenger service on that line at the time Amtrak took over. Naturally, I started out with an antagonism to Amtrak! Sorry if this rant was inapproriate.
Me? I wouldn't ask you if the sky was blue. Thank you for ignoring every conditional, exploiting every exception, and for your copybook scrupling over things inessential to my post. Like uniting a pre-1960 matter with a post-1969 matter in adjacent paragraphs. Duh--yes, I and everyone here knows how passenger trains from the South were through-routed or had equipment transferred to NB trains on what's now called the NEC. Usually to Penn/NYC. Let's see how many objections you can raise over that last sentence's semantics as long as common sense is ignored or violated. . Oh, excuse me -- you didn't make it as far as Penn Station, did you? You probably got off, metaphorically speaking, at 30th Street with all the other Philadlphia lawyers.
Why don't you get out your ouija board (yes, I know the trade name was spelled differently), and try to channel Stuart Saunders? (Now, BTW that's what's called a "rhetorical question." If you want to show your a** more fully, go ahead and answer it any way you see fit.)
And I am not going to be baited into furthering this riduculous dialog. It's characters like you keep me off these boards most of the time, despite the many wonderful, generous and well-informed posters, because I am not interested in trifling and disincentives to honest learning and common sense from those who must claim to be RIGHT all of the time and nothing else will do. And don't claim to be furthering dialog; it's transparent that your motives are not so wholly pure. - a.s.
PS: If this response gets me kicked off these boards, so be it. Believe me, I write a lot, and post in sites that are happy to hear from me.
al-in-chgo I remember up until 1970 that the Birmingham Special would pass through Emory, VA, 25 mi. NE of Bristol, the VA/TN state line, as a whiste stop. The train was pulled by Sou Rwy engines, A+B units out of the EMD fold, over the N&W stretch. OTOH the Pelican over the N&W section was pulled by one of their EMD's, probably commissioned as passenger locomotives but (remember, N&W got in on the postwar dieselization quite late), not a "carbody," more the type that looked like a freight engine or Geep. I never knew the N&W to use any carbodies for freight or passenger; but if I'm wrong please let me know.
In 1964 with the Nickel Plate and Wabash merger, the N&W inherited the remaining Wabash "carbody" units, both Fs and Es. I've seen photos that show some of them repainted in N&W black. Don't know how long the remained in service.
Mike
During the 1966-1970 period, most of which was lived with my second-floor bedroom looking out over the tracks, I never saw the Birmingham Special pulled by anything other than Sou. Rwy. carbodies, and I never saw The Pelican pulled by anything other than N&W diesels of the "geep" era; and they were dark blue, not black (and most if not all of which had what were called "imitation steam whisltes," and I can only say, heavy on the imitation). No one should rule out the occasional substitution or loan, but I don't recall seeing such an anomaly. Until the late Sixties, the N&W was still operating varnish over a lot of routes, and at least one hung on all the way up to Amtrak (that "Landlocked" Bristol-Roanoke stem in the TRAINS map), but I saw what I saw, and I saw no fundamental shift in motive power for the varnish. It was also common knowledge in town and at the old Glade Spring depot that they "changed the engines" at Bristol for the Pelican but not for the Birmingham Special.
Of course, N&W logo'ed carbodies inherited from other lines is logical and I believe you; I just think they were assigned to other routes. Were there any postwar-era diesels from other makers, like Alco's, that survived from premerger Wabash days? I'm curious about that. The merger that united N&W and Sou.Rwy. to create NS took place in 1982, though years before that the N&W had indeed gone to black paint for the locomotives and a lot of the rolling stock, and with that stark "NW" symbol (I can't in good faith call that a 'logo'.). As recently as three years ago I saw an information train at Rural Retreat (Bristol-Lynchburg ex-N&W) that used carbodies with the NS logo, but by that late date the HEP could have served in any number o other places during its career. After all, that was more than thirty years after Amtrak canceled any last vestige of passenger traffic. (There is that gap when the "Harley Staggers Special" was funded, but I never saw it; I had moved up here and that train ran the old mainline Pocohontas route anyway.). I also wonder whether any livery such as coaches and club cars, or any HEP, is or was maintained by NS in Tuscan Red for the delectation of large investors and investment advisors who don't appreciate what they're getting (snarl)? The information train had Tuscan Red cars, one of which was probably remodeled from a baggage car, the other two I'm not sure about.
I make no claim for the Tennessean, as it was cancelled before I developed a serious interest in trains.
Earlier today Norfolk Southern just added a 3:05 long video titled "Heartland Opening Event 2010" to its YouTube Channel, at -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnwa72hz71M
Paul_D_North_Jr Earlier today Norfolk Southern just added a 3:05 long video titled "Heartland Opening Event 2010" to its YouTube Channel, at - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnwa72hz71M - Paul North.
Thanks for the heads-up, Paul! - al-in-chgo
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