Bob-FrymlApparently a number of California "tree huggers" have moved to Durango, Colorado to retire. My brother-in-law told me that a portion of those folks have complained to the city fathers about the presence of coal smoke in certain enclaves around town, and they, the tree-huggers, don't like that. Apparently all of those vacuously chic, trendy, fashionably hip and liberal left-coast environmentalists take great offense at the way the Durango & Silverton Narrow Gauge Railroad powers its trains. Having been in Durango just a month before, it appears to me that the city father's have turned a deaf ear to their requests. Decades ago while poking around the C.& N.W.'s tracks in downtown Elgin, Ill. an old, retired railroad man approached me and we struck up a conversation. "Diesel smoke," he advised, "is bad for you. Breathing it will give you cancer." "But coal smoke," he further implored, "is good for you. Coal smoke has vitamins!" That ol' boy may be right. I've always enjoyed the smell of burning coal.
Apparently a number of California "tree huggers" have moved to Durango, Colorado to retire. My brother-in-law told me that a portion of those folks have complained to the city fathers about the presence of coal smoke in certain enclaves around town, and they, the tree-huggers, don't like that. Apparently all of those vacuously chic, trendy, fashionably hip and liberal left-coast environmentalists take great offense at the way the Durango & Silverton Narrow Gauge Railroad powers its trains. Having been in Durango just a month before, it appears to me that the city father's have turned a deaf ear to their requests.
Decades ago while poking around the C.& N.W.'s tracks in downtown Elgin, Ill. an old, retired railroad man approached me and we struck up a conversation.
"Diesel smoke," he advised, "is bad for you. Breathing it will give you cancer."
"But coal smoke," he further implored, "is good for you. Coal smoke has vitamins!"
That ol' boy may be right. I've always enjoyed the smell of burning coal.
One thing railroads actually could be involved in ---- preventing flooding by not building fills that completely dam wetlands and riverbeds. The railroad construction crews must put culverts in the filled areas. The culverts are needed everywhere there is a big rock fill. They also help amphibians and reptiles migrate.
What should not be in anybody's town or Front Yard are Mailboxes and Newspaper Tubes that are randomly placed, have rotting wood, rusting metal, and are falling or bent. Start getting people with College Degrees to relplace those nasty things along the roads of small towns. Why is there never any action on that everyday eyesore of badly constructed and impossible to install correctly Mailboxes and Paper Tubes?
Andrew
Watch my videos on-line at https://www.youtube.com/user/AndrewNeilFalconer
Outrage that is sometimes valid and sometimes irrational and often ignores large sections of historical fact. As the comments about cars and highways and Priuses indicate. Of course, I grew up in Chicago and have lived in San Diego and Portland, Rail transportation is, to me, part of being a modern city and I think anyone that opposes it is crazy.
And rail transport has been subsidized since Lincoln signed the transcontinental railroad act if not earlier as has every single transportation project in this nation. So I really struggle to find common ground on this issue.
But that is political and generally not NIMBY.
Victrola1 "The completion of ADM’s new $540 million dry mill ethanol plant in Cedar Rapids has created a need for more railroad track. The CRANDIC Railway began construction this month of a hew 9,000-foot track that will go from Old Bridge Road to just east of Fairfax, CRANDIC Marketing Manager Jeff Woods said." http://gazetteonline.com/local-news/2010/08/19/adm-expansion-requires-crandic-to-add-track (Sorry, can not activate link) No report of NIMBY activity, yet.
"The completion of ADM’s new $540 million dry mill ethanol plant in Cedar Rapids has created a need for more railroad track.
The CRANDIC Railway began construction this month of a hew 9,000-foot track that will go from Old Bridge Road to just east of Fairfax, CRANDIC Marketing Manager Jeff Woods said."
http://gazetteonline.com/local-news/2010/08/19/adm-expansion-requires-crandic-to-add-track
(Sorry, can not activate link)
No report of NIMBY activity, yet.
Don't forget the joint yard that was proposed by CRANDIC and U.P. to be put in just east of Fairfax, Iowa -- just about where this new track is going to go -- and the NIMBYs that objected to it. Too much noise, too much damage to the envrionment, too much danger to children that might be moving into the area since somebody might want to build a housing addition near the same place... The excuses were manyfold, but mainly were of the "Not In My Back Yard" variety
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Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
Matt Van Hattem This is a great thread! Some of you may be following the struggle to get a passenger train running between Milwaukee and Madison, Wis. What started out as a good idea has turned into a politicla football. I just wrote a blog about this for the Trains Web site: http://cs.trains.com/trccs/blogs/trains-talk/2010/08/20/my-night-with-the-train-haters.aspx It was my first experience first-hand with this. Your comments, and examples from around the country, have been fascinating to read. Matt Van Hattem Senior Editor
This is a great thread!
Some of you may be following the struggle to get a passenger train running between Milwaukee and Madison, Wis. What started out as a good idea has turned into a politicla football.
I just wrote a blog about this for the Trains Web site: http://cs.trains.com/trccs/blogs/trains-talk/2010/08/20/my-night-with-the-train-haters.aspx
It was my first experience first-hand with this. Your comments, and examples from around the country, have been fascinating to read.
Matt Van Hattem
Senior Editor
Matt,
I think your use of the term “train hater” is a politically inflammatory cheap shot. It implies that anyone passionately opposed to publicly funded rail projects has a character flaw. The political left is always referring to the political right as “haters,” as a way to demonize the right’s opposition to runaway government spending and expansion, which is often predicated on compassion. It is very similar to the left’s use of the term “global warming denier” as a way to link opposition to the anti-carbon agenda to the seeming stupidity and unreasonableness of denying the holocaust as in the term, "holocaust denier," which is the only other popular use of the term, denier.
When I read your piece, I don’t see many examples of what I would call NIMBYISM. NIMBYS oppose projects because they object to the impact, noise, dust, danger, and the affect on their property values. Instead, what I read in your piece are many examples of the political objection to the runaway expansion of government, which is leading us away from a free market economy, and toward a socialist, redistributionist system. If the country were chugging along with a balanced budget, a government living within its means, economic growth, job creation, and an optimistic future, I doubt there would much opposition to a publicly funded passenger rail project.
Where is the hatred in opposing public funding of rail projects that people don’t think are the best use of taxpayers’ money?
Bucyrus When I say that wind energy is subsidized, and you counter above that the rest of the energy industry is also subsidized, what exactly are you concluding about the cost and viability of wind energy?
All of our energy is heavily subsidized. Nobody has ever paid an unsubsidized price for gas at the pump, a kilowatt of electricity, or a BTU of heat. Complaining that wind power is only viable because its subsidized is either devious or ignorant. Demanding that the Government not subsidize windpower, while not also demanding the end of subsidized coal, oil and natural gas is disingenuous and stupid.
Not to get too political, but I personally am fine with a Keynesian economic policy, If people are not, then they need to at least be consistent. Across the board. Not pick and choose because its a new thing that has come up in their lifetime rather than something that's been in place for a century.
YoHo1975Bucyrus To what extent are they subsidized? Every day, governments give away an estimated two billion dollars of taxpayer money to the fossil fuel industry. Most industrialised countries subsidise oil, coal and natural gas production to reduce the cost of finding and producing oil for oil companies. Countries in the developing world subsidise the cost of buying fuel to the public. Experts agree that both forms of subsidies encourage consumption of fossil fuels and thus increase the price of oil the petroleum industry "probably has larger tax incentives relative to its size than any other industry in the country", according to Donald Lubick, the U.S. Department of Treasury's former Assistant Secretary for Tax Policy Construction bonds at low interest rates or tax-free Research-and-development programs at low or no cost Assuming the legal risks of exploration and development in a company's stead Below-cost loans with lenient repayment conditions Income tax breaks, especially featuring obscure provisions in tax laws designed to receive little congressional oversight when they expire Sales tax breaks - taxes on petroleum products are lower than average sales tax rates for other goods Giving money to international financial institutions (the U.S. has given tens of billions of dollars to the World Bank and U.S. Export-Import Bank to encourage oil production internationally, according to Friends of the Earth) The U.S. Strategic Petroleum Reserve Construction and protection of the nation's highway system Why does a company like Exxonmobil need 1 dime of subsidy to do anything?
Bucyrus To what extent are they subsidized?
To what extent are they subsidized?
Most industrialised countries subsidise oil, coal and natural gas production to reduce the cost of finding and producing oil for oil companies. Countries in the developing world subsidise the cost of buying fuel to the public. Experts agree that both forms of subsidies encourage consumption of fossil fuels and thus increase the price of oil
the petroleum industry "probably has larger tax incentives relative to its size than any other industry in the country", according to Donald Lubick, the U.S. Department of Treasury's former Assistant Secretary for Tax Policy
Construction bonds at low interest rates or tax-free
Research-and-development programs at low or no cost
Assuming the legal risks of exploration and development in a company's stead
Below-cost loans with lenient repayment conditions
Income tax breaks, especially featuring obscure provisions in tax laws designed to receive little congressional oversight when they expire
Sales tax breaks - taxes on petroleum products are lower than average sales tax rates for other goods
Giving money to international financial institutions (the U.S. has given tens of billions of dollars to the World Bank and U.S. Export-Import Bank to encourage oil production internationally, according to Friends of the Earth)
The U.S. Strategic Petroleum Reserve
Construction and protection of the nation's highway system
Why does a company like Exxonmobil need 1 dime of subsidy to do anything?
When I say that wind energy is subsidized, and you counter above that the rest of the energy industry is also subsidized, what exactly are you concluding about the cost and viability of wind energy?
Victrola1 "The completion of ADM’s new $540 million dry mill ethanol plant in Cedar Rapids has created a need for more railroad track. The CRANDIC Railway began construction this month of a hew 9,000-foot track that will go from Old Bridge Road to just east of Fairfax, CRANDIC Marketing Manager Jeff Woods said." http://gazetteonline.com/local-news/2010/08/19/adm-expansion-requires-crandic-to-add-track (Sorry, can not activate link) Just enter a space in front of link HT now activated!! No report of NIMBY activity, yet.
Just enter a space in front of link HT now activated!!
samfp1943The NIMBY's complain they spin like the blades on a 'Cuisineart'~ Not my experience, very quiet and sure does not bother the cows grazing around the bases of the machines.
Johnny
YoHo1975 Also, Buycrus, are you accounting for the fact that Oil, Coal and Natural Gas are also heavily subsidized and that therefore we are paying artificially low rates across the board for our energy?
Also, Buycrus, are you accounting for the fact that Oil, Coal and Natural Gas are also heavily subsidized and that therefore we are paying artificially low rates across the board for our energy?
Why subsidize something produced by private enterprise that is used by almost everybody?
Renewables are being subsidized to lower their price as an incentive to switch to using them.
rrnut282We have one NIMBY who dials the sherrif's department as soon as the crossing gates go down to complain that the crossing is blocked. Nevermind he built his house about 20 years after NS built a passing siding that crosses "his" road and he can drive around the block to go out to the highway. I can read every week in the local paper where a citation was actually issued or it was on the court docket and NS was fined. The genius "knows railroads are on the way out" and that's why he built there.
We have one NIMBY who dials the sherrif's department as soon as the crossing gates go down to complain that the crossing is blocked. Nevermind he built his house about 20 years after NS built a passing siding that crosses "his" road and he can drive around the block to go out to the highway. I can read every week in the local paper where a citation was actually issued or it was on the court docket and NS was fined.
The genius "knows railroads are on the way out" and that's why he built there.
ndbprrhave to wonder if the greenies who think they are smarter than the rest of us have thought wind turbines out completely. Energy is not free. Turning those blades disipates and slow the air turning them. Build enough and it could be possible to create areas where wind is nonexistant leading to who knows what but certainly drought and areas of no rain are possible.
The real problem with windmills is that they are being represented as a free source of energy because the wind is free. The wind may be free, but windmills are not. They are very expensive, high-maintenance, machines that face a variety of operating adversities. To meet these challenges, they are evolving toward more and more mechanical complexity and higher cost.
They are expensive machines with a finite life, and they only produce so much electricity during that life. When you compare the value of that electricity to the life-cost of the wind generator, you get electricity that costs much more than electricity produced in fossil fuel power plants.
Furthermore, wind power is irregular and unpredictable, while the consumption market must have a constant and consistent supply of electricity. That means that wind plants must have fossil fuel power plant backup to fill in the gaps in the wind energy production. And while wind plants can merrily rise and fall in their production, fossil fuel plants cannot easily ramp up and idle down in response as wind backup. So wind power requires fossil fuel backup power, which can be problematic, and also is redundant. This also adds to the overall cost of wind energy.
To get wind power started, this extra cost is being subsidized by averaging it out to non-wind ratepayers. But, eventually, as wind power becomes more mainstream, we will all be paying a higher tab for electricity.
But one must consider that the point of wind power is not to produce cheaper electricity, even though the advancement of the wind energy movement is all wrapped up in that false promise. The real purpose of wind power is to reduce the emission of CO2 in order to prevent the destruction of the planet. Wind power is an extra financial burden, just like a tax, and the purpose is to save our lives. It is basically a civic responsibility just like jury duty.
Five-10 years ago in Sioux Falls, South Dakota, somebody wanted to bring in one of those trendy pre-fab chrome diners and put it downtown.
The yuppies came out the woodwork on this one. One letter to the editor said "Downtown Sioux Falls reminds me of Paris, with all of the sidewalk cafes, this diner will ruin the effect."
The diner was brought in, and they put it right were they wanted to originally.
In front of a multi-story concrete parking structure.
Reality TV is to reality, what Professional Wrestling is to Professional Brain Surgery.
For some reason NIMBY's always prey on fear. They always have to throw out the worst case and even beyond that. Like the Trains article said, they keep preying on the parents of the elementary school's fear of a tank car spill in the yard and how devastating it will be. Nevermind the fact that its a Intermodal facility, not a regular manifest yard. Makes me wonder how bad the Nohub4McCalla group would freak out if they knew that there already is a 10,000 ft or so passing siding about 100 yards behind the McAdory elementary school (and greatest center of controversy) and those "deadly tankers" are sitting there all the time waiting for the clear.
ndbprrTurning those blades disipates and slow the air turning them. Build enough and it could be possible to create areas where wind is nonexistant leading to who knows what but certainly drought and areas of no rain are possible.
Sad when a lack education in basic science leads to such uninformed statements.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
trainboyH16-44ndbprrhave to wonder if the greenies who think they are smarter than the rest of us have thought wind turbines out completely. Energy is not free. Turning those blades disipates and slow the air turning them. Build enough and it could be possible to create areas where wind is nonexistant leading to who knows what but certainly drought and areas of no rain are possible. And move all the trains to the east coast and you could slow the rotation of the earth so much the days would be too hot and the nights too cold...Suuuure.
And move all the trains to the east coast and you could slow the rotation of the earth so much the days would be too hot and the nights too cold...
Suuuure.
Go here for my rail shots! http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?userid=9296
Building the CPR Kootenay division in N scale, blog here: http://kootenaymodelrailway.wordpress.com/
This isn't RR related, but there is an empty building in Bartlesville, OK that used to be a car dealership. It is located in a downtown area that is kind of off the beaten path. The local Sonic franchise would like to purchase the property and build a new Sonic to replace one that is located in an area that is too small. I saw the architectural drawings he had and did his best to make it blend in with the rest of the buildings.
Some bonehead NIMBYs don't want it there because it will make downtown too "commercialized" and "cheap". They fail to realize that there is a Pizza Hut next door to the proposed Sonic. There is also a Subway located in the heart of downtown! The really sad thing is that there isn't a house located within a quarter of a mile.
Will
They were already to go, the actual neighbors were fine with it, then some boneheads that lived blocks away went to the public hearing and complained about how this would reduce property values. NUNS REDUCE PROPERTY VALUES!
The deal fell through and my mom ended up having to keep the place almost an extra year and she sold it for half what they had offered. JERKS!
OUt here in Kansas it's the Wind Farms. The area of the Flint Hills (link to some photos of an existing Wind Farm near Beaumont,Ks) Thats East of Wichita. http://www.pbase.com/bruceward/elk_river_wind_farm
The NIMBY's complain they spin like the blades on a 'Cuisineart'~ Not my experience, very quiet and sure does not bother the cows grazing around the bases of the machines. I read that out in California, that people who have bought homes built near the high passes where there are Wind Farms are complaining that they are bothering them, and the Wind Farm was there long before the homes... Reminds one of the battles with some railroads and other NIMBY's.
During the late 1990s, folks here in north Idaho were protesting BNSF's proposed refueling facility at Hauser Yard. It was a long, complicated story which I boiled down to news pieces for Trains, Railway Age, and CTC Board. Storing and dispensing fuel over one of the world's most pure and productive aquifers was cause for concern, but cooler heads prevailed after it was demonstrated that BNSF would be protecting our water supply better than the area's existing gas stations, tank farms, and septic systems.
Gary mentioned earlier the NIMBY factor with El Toro Marine Base. I did most of my growing up in El Toro, and despite those housing tracts being built right up against the ATSF right of way, where 90-mph Amtraks and a handful of freights passed each day, there was never any public complaint against the railroad that I can recall. Even with the occasional pedestrian fatality along that part of the Surf Line, or down south along the beach at San Clemente, people just didn't seem to pay much attention to the railroad in their backyards.
The houses shown in that opening aerial photo in the NIMBY article have nothing on the proximity I've seen both in El Toro and where I live now on the northern edge of Post Falls (just west of Coeur d'Alene), Idaho. See that parking lot/roadway at the bottom edge of the photo? That's how close the houses were to the track in California as well as here in Idaho. We have UP's ex-Spokane International route a couple hundred feet out our back door, and BNSF clearly audible a couple miles to the north. What I can't understand is why some of the newer developments around here have put houses barely 70 feet from the track, some of those being right next to a grade crossing. No NIMBY noise complaints have been made public yet. At least in this area, I think people realize the railroad was there long before them, and it was their choice to buy a house too close to the track.
diningcar The newer acronym BANANA is now in vogue. BUILD ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ANYWHERE ANYTHING
The newer acronym BANANA is now in vogue.
BUILD ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ANYWHERE ANYTHING
Ya missed a letter: Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anything
Add to that CARD's... is in Citizens Against Rational Decisions
Have fun with your trains
On the ex-Reading RR's long out-of-service - like since 1981 ? - Bethlehem Branch in Upper Saucon Twp., Lehigh Co., Pennsylvania, just south of the City of Bethlehem and northeast of the Borough of Coopersburg, the McMansion crowd in the exclusive and very upscale Weyhill Woods subdivision put a few gardens, sheds, playsets, compost piles, firewood stacks, etc. on the R-O-W and even the tracks. The line was later sold to the regional transit agency - SEPTA - and supposedly every time the subject of restoring passenger rail service from Behthlehem/ Lehigh Valley down to Philadelphia comes up, those 'lords of the manor' threaten to fight it to the death, or some such.
Well, about 2 years ago at the height of the scrap metal boom, SEPTA sold the well-worn but still 130+ lb. rails and Other Track Materials from about 8 miles of the 2 mainline tracks which ran past there - for about $1,000 per ton ! - as part of a scheme to lease the R-O-W to a couple municipalities to turn it into a rail-trail, 'pending' the someday restoration of rail service. The scrapper/ salvager and his dozers first went through to knock down and cut the heavy brush and small trees, and I understand that all of the offending trespassers got the hint. One way or another their stuff was moved of at least the roadbed portion of the R-O-W, for at least the duration of the salvage operation. I haven't heard that the Township got a lot of grief for he rail-trail or for allowing the track removal/ salvage to happen, but then again that didn't involve trains running past the McMansions. Nevertheless, with the drop in real estate values over the past couple of years, maybe the NIMBY's don't have much stomach for a long expensive fight.
- Paul North.
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