KP, your summary about the old Transcon between Williams and Ash Fork is correct. The line no longer used had the tunnel and it can be seen on google earth with the satelite view. It may also seen on USGS topo maps. It is the southern most of the two lines after they split west of Williams, east of Ash Fork. The tunnel is approximately halfway between Williams and Ash Fork.
etro, diningcar, or anyone …
Is this the tunnel location?
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.2465146,-112.3328226,392m/data=!3m1!1e3
Thanks,
K.P.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.
Good job KP, you got it.
Rising to HEAVEN! (Ambulances and All)
West of Ash Fork, AZ
Part “A” (of A-E)
On Sunday, April 3, 2016 K.P. turned off the old Historic Route 66 at Broken Wheel Road, went east on old railroad roads, to where the eastbound line (right) used to meet the old westbound line (left).
Right in that area it looks like old signal concrete bases were left behind.
Above, between the two concrete items, was the old eastbound track.
If one follows both routes (left and right) back with the eye one used to go over the other on the upper left.
While in the above area a couple of white police vehicles were seen rushing to something. Were they looking for K.P.?
Continued in Part B
Part “B” (of A-E)
Back at where one track went over the other.
As noted above, the dirt road has been cut into the old right-of-way so one cannot walk to the edge of where one track went over the other. The lower track route is seen above on the right.
Another angle of the two routes:
A closer-up:
From here, one can see how the old line climbed the hills.
K.P. headed up that way … As he was going through a cut, he could see he was going to meet a black and white ahead. K.P. pulled over to let him by, and we both waved at each other.
Continued in Part C
Part “C” (of A-E)
Going higher and higher … A stop was made to look around.
A downward view:
Oh, wow! That was where we were, where one track went over the other.
That cut is seen way in the distance, with forefront boulders left by route preparers.
Continued in Part D
Part “D” (of A-E)
A couple of unknown location views as climbing continued.
That road area we were just at.
The reason we stopped and took the above photo was that while driving an ambulance was seen descending in that view (rightward), by the drainage pipe. What emergency had transpired is unknown, but a lot of police initially rushed to the scene.
We are really high now, and see that old one track going over the other area.
Continued in Part E
Part “E” (of A-E)
The old westbound right-of-way climbs TOWARDS the camera. Was a LEFT positioned signal here once? Was it just an electrical box?
It was somewhere past that old cement based that we turned around (behind the camera), near some residence. A vehicle later came up behind us as we continue down, and it was let pass. A friendly guy and his wife stopped to make sure we were all right. When he found out that the old railroad grade was being traverse, he lit up, and started talking: Around in the late fifties the track through here was taken up. I don’t think he was a railfan, but he sure knew a lot about the old Santa Fe line through here!
This is where that highway patrol vehicle was met, behind the camera. But, the view shows the elevated track route.
It was just behind the camera is where the car was pulled over previously to let the Highway Patrolman pass, in a cut, and one can still see the big excavation boulders strewn around.
We finally get back to that natural crossover, and leave the area.
It was quite an experience passing over where Super Chiefs and tiger striped GP-7’s once passed.
K. P. HarrierEAST OF ASH FORK NATURAL CROSSOVER Previously ... West of Ash Fork Natural Crossover So, the OLD, pre-1960 line was basically right biased, except for a stretch of left biased trackage on either side of Ash Fork, AZ.
Previously ... West of Ash Fork Natural Crossover
So, the OLD, pre-1960 line was basically right biased, except for a stretch of left biased trackage on either side of Ash Fork, AZ.
timz (5-12):
That quoted post was from March 6, 2012, over four years ago and only less than two years from the creation of this thread. BACK THEN the whole Arizona thing was kind of hazy in my mind, and through forum posters correcting misunderstandings and also personal investigation, often with onsite visits, a more accurate picture of the present and past line was acquired.
One glaring thing I learned from you, timz, in another recent thread, was that the longer, less gradient line (that I actually drove portions of and photographed last month), was the original line. Previously, I had just assumed the steeper line was as in Cajon Pass, where the steeper 3% line was built before the 2.2% line. On the west of Ash Fork situation, by the natural crossover the steeper line changes steepness dramatically when it (the eastbound line) again follows the east-west route together eastward. Obviously, the steeper line, as you said, was built AFTER the longer, westbound route was.
It would be so much easier, and fun too, if we had a time machine and could go back and see the actual building of rail lines and thus were eyewitnesses to the truth. But, in the absence of a time machine, we do have knowledgeable persons, like you, timz, that are the next best thing.
Best,
I also wish to recognize our correspondent 'timz' for educating us, me especially, about the 2nd track construction both west from Ash Fork and east from Ludlow. My engineering mindset caused my misjudgement.
KP, I believe you submitted, some time ago, a photo of a small bridge that is located 5 +- miles west of Ash Fork. This bridge has the original track abutments made with native stone and the second track's made with concrete. If you can locate that photo it will clearly tell us which track was first.
diningcar (5-12):
This abutments area might be what you were referring to.
It is not too far east of I-40’s Exit 139, and about ‘five miles’ west of Ash Fork, AZ. But, I saw nothing per se to indicate different constructions. However, it does look like darker concrete on the abutment’s top left.
If so, that would be in conflict with the natural crossover to the west, which new track was on the north side. Of course, by I-40’s Exit 139 there is a railroad right-of-way curve, so an alignment shift was possible there.
In Ash Fork itself, on the east side of town, the Phoenix line seems to be the south track on the double-track Chicago-Los Angeles line. The abandoned abutment on the north side (left bottom) would be consistent with that possible alignment shift by Exit 139.
Perhaps timz has something to say on this.
Anyway, back to your most recent post, if the above by I-40 railroad abutment views are what you were referring to, I suppose a hiking in to the site would prove if one side was built with “native stone” and the other side with concrete.
etro (9-15-2015)
Belated … That tunnel view was cool!
Take care all,
KP,
Your photo appears to be the location I recall and if it is then the stone abutment is on the north side. Can anyone else confirm this because there was no other x-over until the one we have been discussing. I clearly recall a bridge like the one KP has just furnished where the stone original abutment was plainly visable as one drives west on I-40.
diningcar (5-13):
That ex-bridge you speak of is probably this one in the below aerial:
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.2265708,-112.5676675,49m/data=!3m1!1e3
There looks to be a public dirt road that parallels and some of which is actually on the right-of-way for the old line, so next time I’m out that way maybe I can get close enough to get revealing ex-bridge photos.
The only other ex-bridge on aerials was a bigger and deeper one closer to Ash Fork, but I don’t think that was the one you were referring to.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Ash+Fork,+AZ+86320/@35.221666,-112.5399898,196m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x8732a92dacef96f3:0xdf647a8d84217a24!8m2!3d35.2250114!4d-112.4840675
In the back of my mind I need to get out that way again, and cover a few places that were missed this past trip account of weird circumstances that plagued me all this past trip. The best laid plans of men and mice … they say.
A reoccurring thought about the Ash Fork area and the bridge location you spoke of is that that eastbound train involved in the 1956 head-on before reaching Raton, NM went right though the Exit 139 area and over that bridge you mentioned. And all the silver warbonneted F’s and PA’s passed over that bridge too …
Don’t let nostalgia get you too bad (me too),
Thanks for the ariels. The bridge closer to Ash Fork, your 2nd reference, definately shows the westerly abutment with native stone on the north track. See the very red coloring. This is what I remember and it establishes that the A&P track was the north track leaving Ash Fork.
Further comments solicited.
diningcar (5-13)
So, THAT is the bridging area you spoke of, the bridging closer to Ash Fork (AZ).
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.2219119,-112.5394998,49m/data=!3m1!1e3
In that aerial I can’t help but wonder if the ex-bridging was over the great lime green “Antifreeze River" …
I’ve always wanted to photograph that higher, larger ex-bridge spot, but it did not appear readily accessible while passing on I-40. However, aerials suggest a side road south of I-40 might (“might”) allow one to photograph the ex-bridge site, possibly with as little as a 500 feet hiking in.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Ash+Fork,+AZ+86320/@35.2205441,-112.5412773,785m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x8732a92dacef96f3:0xdf647a8d84217a24!8m2!3d35.2250114!4d-112.4840675
Next time I’m out that way I might try to brave passage on the questionable side road to hike the 500 feet. If photos there can be taken, they will be posted for your nostalgia …
But, as you mentioned, the aerials definitely show a darker north side cement-work.
KP and any others,
The bridge at 35.225 - 112.567 is accessable by the dirt road on the north and I think is the one I saw which had the red native stone abutments. So if you or anyone can get a closer look it should have the same characteristics as was seen further east with the red colored abutments.
if indeed we can determine from the visable construction characteristics which track was constructed by the A&P it should clarify any questions about whether the longer, looping line was the A&P line or the 2nd track.
diningcarwhether the longer, looping line [west of Ash Fork] was the A&P line or the 2nd track
Look over the mileposts at the west end of the separated mains, on this page and the adjoining pages
http://cregory.net/ATSF/19500000-1952TC/06/06-103.html
The eastward track has the X-mileposts, and the mileage discontinuity. The westward track has continuous mileposts because it was the original line.
A friend looked up the 1910 timetable reprint-- it shows 17.6 miles Ash Fork to Crookton. The 1942 timetable shows 14.7 miles Crookton to Ash Fork on the eastward track.
How many miles were saved with the bypass alignment from the original alignment?
Pamela (4-3):
There was NO significant mileage difference. It was just that the relocation had more sweeping curves and avoided the rollercoaster aspect. Forum contributor “diningcar,” who actually worked on the project back in 1959-1960, may want to weigh in on this.
Yes indeed KP, I will offer the following:
The original A&P line and the 1960 line change alinement are approximately the same distance, 44 +- miles. However the 2nd main track along the A&P line was considerably longer because of the reduced grade alinement between Ash Fork and Williams, perhaps as much as two miles although I no longer have access to the data. So indeed the question about overall track miles varies dependent upon which track you have in mind..
diningcarthe 2nd main track along the A&P line was considerably longer
(Turns out the eastward track was 0.91 mile longer than the westward, Crookton to Williams.)
Using an ETT from 1955 I added the distance between stations with the following results:
WW - Williams to Crookton 40.5 miles; EW Crookton to Williams 41.6 miles
WW - Williams to Ash Fork 23.0 miles; EW - Ash Fork to Williams 26.5 miles
diningcarUsing an ETT from 1955 I added the distance between stations ...
But what are the equivalent data from an ETT after 1960?
The 1960 line change resulted in the creation of Williams Jct., which was 2.9 miles east of Williams. Therfore 2.9 miles must be added to both the EW and WW miles I just furnished.
The distance from Williams Jct. to Crookton for both EW and WW on the relocated line is 44 miles.
diningcar (4-8):
A surveying class was taken many moons ago so I can somewhat relate to the art of the trade, but the Crookton line change raises a few loose end in my mind that maybe you can more educate me on.
Through aerials a general plot of a line (such as the Crookton line change) can be worked out, but surveyors with boots on the ground eventually have to be present. How do surveyors go about staking out inaccessible areas, before the bulldozers open up a path for them?
Back in 1959-1960 we surveyors did not have the modern tools to measure distance without a tape or satelites to establish alinement, but we did have recent aerial photos plotted with two foot vertical contours. We had a 100 foot steel tape (chain), a new K&E transit and a new Zeis level.
We measured horizontally and level, sometimes for ten feet or less, by using a plumb bob.
We used random transit points (stakes in the ground or a hole drilled in rock, filled with lead and a finish nail inserted) and the calculated offsets from the random points to whatever location we needed. We had no hand held calculators with the trig functions. I had a book of trig functions to eight decimal places and to seconds of a degree that were applied to whatever angle we had turned, or needed to turn. When necessary because of a specially difficult we would use two transits working in tandem. I as party chief (called Transitman) had a very good Rodman who also made the pencil calculations with me to check each other. I worked at home many nights to prepare the calculations so that we would not be delayed while in the field, and I made further computations, on critical issues, to further check our work after after it was staked.
After the initial stakes were established and the contractor destroyed them with his work we had to re-establish them several times as excavation was made in 15 - 20 foot lifts. We had previously established reference stakes to the alinement control points by setting the transit on that point and turning an approxmite 45 degree angle and setting four stakes on each side at random distance. Then we turned 45 degrees the opposite way and established four more RP's so that when we had to recreate the alinement we used two transits, one along each RP line, and plunged those lines at an approximate 90 degree intersection which was the desired control point. I have not covered every possible situation but hope this info is of benefit.
RMEequivalent data from an ETT after 1960?
I'll check the chart-- as I recall distance on the 1960 line is longer than the old westward distance, shorter than the old eastward distance.
Track chart shows 3016 feet from MP 418A to MP 419
In other words, at the west end of the line change MP 419 is a mile plus 3016 feet west of MP 418, which suggests the 1960 line is about 3016 feet longer than the old westward track. (Or, more precisely, it's 3016 feet longer than the original 1880s single track-- don't recall if the westward track west of Ash Fork ever got shifted.)
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