KP,
Thanks for the ariels. The bridge closer to Ash Fork, your 2nd reference, definately shows the westerly abutment with native stone on the north track. See the very red coloring. This is what I remember and it establishes that the A&P track was the north track leaving Ash Fork.
Further comments solicited.
diningcar (5-13):
That ex-bridge you speak of is probably this one in the below aerial:
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.2265708,-112.5676675,49m/data=!3m1!1e3
There looks to be a public dirt road that parallels and some of which is actually on the right-of-way for the old line, so next time I’m out that way maybe I can get close enough to get revealing ex-bridge photos.
The only other ex-bridge on aerials was a bigger and deeper one closer to Ash Fork, but I don’t think that was the one you were referring to.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Ash+Fork,+AZ+86320/@35.221666,-112.5399898,196m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x8732a92dacef96f3:0xdf647a8d84217a24!8m2!3d35.2250114!4d-112.4840675
In the back of my mind I need to get out that way again, and cover a few places that were missed this past trip account of weird circumstances that plagued me all this past trip. The best laid plans of men and mice … they say.
A reoccurring thought about the Ash Fork area and the bridge location you spoke of is that that eastbound train involved in the 1956 head-on before reaching Raton, NM went right though the Exit 139 area and over that bridge you mentioned. And all the silver warbonneted F’s and PA’s passed over that bridge too …
Don’t let nostalgia get you too bad (me too),
K.P.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.
Your photo appears to be the location I recall and if it is then the stone abutment is on the north side. Can anyone else confirm this because there was no other x-over until the one we have been discussing. I clearly recall a bridge like the one KP has just furnished where the stone original abutment was plainly visable as one drives west on I-40.
diningcar (5-12):
This abutments area might be what you were referring to.
It is not too far east of I-40’s Exit 139, and about ‘five miles’ west of Ash Fork, AZ. But, I saw nothing per se to indicate different constructions. However, it does look like darker concrete on the abutment’s top left.
If so, that would be in conflict with the natural crossover to the west, which new track was on the north side. Of course, by I-40’s Exit 139 there is a railroad right-of-way curve, so an alignment shift was possible there.
In Ash Fork itself, on the east side of town, the Phoenix line seems to be the south track on the double-track Chicago-Los Angeles line. The abandoned abutment on the north side (left bottom) would be consistent with that possible alignment shift by Exit 139.
Perhaps timz has something to say on this.
Anyway, back to your most recent post, if the above by I-40 railroad abutment views are what you were referring to, I suppose a hiking in to the site would prove if one side was built with “native stone” and the other side with concrete.
etro (9-15-2015)
Belated … That tunnel view was cool!
Take care all,
I also wish to recognize our correspondent 'timz' for educating us, me especially, about the 2nd track construction both west from Ash Fork and east from Ludlow. My engineering mindset caused my misjudgement.
KP, I believe you submitted, some time ago, a photo of a small bridge that is located 5 +- miles west of Ash Fork. This bridge has the original track abutments made with native stone and the second track's made with concrete. If you can locate that photo it will clearly tell us which track was first.
timz (5-12):
That quoted post was from March 6, 2012, over four years ago and only less than two years from the creation of this thread. BACK THEN the whole Arizona thing was kind of hazy in my mind, and through forum posters correcting misunderstandings and also personal investigation, often with onsite visits, a more accurate picture of the present and past line was acquired.
One glaring thing I learned from you, timz, in another recent thread, was that the longer, less gradient line (that I actually drove portions of and photographed last month), was the original line. Previously, I had just assumed the steeper line was as in Cajon Pass, where the steeper 3% line was built before the 2.2% line. On the west of Ash Fork situation, by the natural crossover the steeper line changes steepness dramatically when it (the eastbound line) again follows the east-west route together eastward. Obviously, the steeper line, as you said, was built AFTER the longer, westbound route was.
It would be so much easier, and fun too, if we had a time machine and could go back and see the actual building of rail lines and thus were eyewitnesses to the truth. But, in the absence of a time machine, we do have knowledgeable persons, like you, timz, that are the next best thing.
Best,
K. P. HarrierEAST OF ASH FORK NATURAL CROSSOVER Previously ... West of Ash Fork Natural Crossover So, the OLD, pre-1960 line was basically right biased, except for a stretch of left biased trackage on either side of Ash Fork, AZ.
Previously ... West of Ash Fork Natural Crossover
So, the OLD, pre-1960 line was basically right biased, except for a stretch of left biased trackage on either side of Ash Fork, AZ.
Rising to HEAVEN! (Ambulances and All)
West of Ash Fork, AZ
Part “E” (of A-E)
The old westbound right-of-way climbs TOWARDS the camera. Was a LEFT positioned signal here once? Was it just an electrical box?
It was somewhere past that old cement based that we turned around (behind the camera), near some residence. A vehicle later came up behind us as we continue down, and it was let pass. A friendly guy and his wife stopped to make sure we were all right. When he found out that the old railroad grade was being traverse, he lit up, and started talking: Around in the late fifties the track through here was taken up. I don’t think he was a railfan, but he sure knew a lot about the old Santa Fe line through here!
This is where that highway patrol vehicle was met, behind the camera. But, the view shows the elevated track route.
It was just behind the camera is where the car was pulled over previously to let the Highway Patrolman pass, in a cut, and one can still see the big excavation boulders strewn around.
We finally get back to that natural crossover, and leave the area.
It was quite an experience passing over where Super Chiefs and tiger striped GP-7’s once passed.
Part “D” (of A-E)
A couple of unknown location views as climbing continued.
That road area we were just at.
The reason we stopped and took the above photo was that while driving an ambulance was seen descending in that view (rightward), by the drainage pipe. What emergency had transpired is unknown, but a lot of police initially rushed to the scene.
We are really high now, and see that old one track going over the other area.
Continued in Part E
Part “C” (of A-E)
Going higher and higher … A stop was made to look around.
A downward view:
Oh, wow! That was where we were, where one track went over the other.
That cut is seen way in the distance, with forefront boulders left by route preparers.
Continued in Part D
Part “B” (of A-E)
Back at where one track went over the other.
As noted above, the dirt road has been cut into the old right-of-way so one cannot walk to the edge of where one track went over the other. The lower track route is seen above on the right.
Another angle of the two routes:
A closer-up:
From here, one can see how the old line climbed the hills.
K.P. headed up that way … As he was going through a cut, he could see he was going to meet a black and white ahead. K.P. pulled over to let him by, and we both waved at each other.
Continued in Part C
Part “A” (of A-E)
On Sunday, April 3, 2016 K.P. turned off the old Historic Route 66 at Broken Wheel Road, went east on old railroad roads, to where the eastbound line (right) used to meet the old westbound line (left).
Right in that area it looks like old signal concrete bases were left behind.
Above, between the two concrete items, was the old eastbound track.
If one follows both routes (left and right) back with the eye one used to go over the other on the upper left.
While in the above area a couple of white police vehicles were seen rushing to something. Were they looking for K.P.?
Continued in Part B
Good job KP, you got it.
etro, diningcar, or anyone …
Is this the tunnel location?
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.2465146,-112.3328226,392m/data=!3m1!1e3
Thanks,
KP, your summary about the old Transcon between Williams and Ash Fork is correct. The line no longer used had the tunnel and it can be seen on google earth with the satelite view. It may also seen on USGS topo maps. It is the southern most of the two lines after they split west of Williams, east of Ash Fork. The tunnel is approximately halfway between Williams and Ash Fork.
K. P. Harrier etro (9-14): First, welcome to the forum. Your post initially baffled me, as the tunnel’s location was unknown. The best I could determine, the tunnel is somewhere between Williams and Ash Fork (AZ). The double-track line between those points had the appearance of paired track, and each main took a different route. With the line relocation of this thread (1959-1960), both mains between Williams and Ash Fork were not need. The main that Santa Fe abandoned was the tunnel route you mentioned. The surviving main continues today and goes southwardly from Ask Fork to Phoenix. Have I, etro, surmised correctly so far?
etro (9-14):
First, welcome to the forum.
Your post initially baffled me, as the tunnel’s location was unknown. The best I could determine, the tunnel is somewhere between Williams and Ash Fork (AZ). The double-track line between those points had the appearance of paired track, and each main took a different route. With the line relocation of this thread (1959-1960), both mains between Williams and Ash Fork were not need. The main that Santa Fe abandoned was the tunnel route you mentioned. The surviving main continues today and goes southwardly from Ask Fork to Phoenix.
Have I, etro, surmised correctly so far?
That's my understanding yes. Although admittedly I'm not versed in this, just saw the post and thought you guys might appreciate the pics.
Should I have found this thread and the level of detail being discussed prior to my trip, I would have documented the visit much more thoroughly!
I can post coordinates if anyone is interested (and if that's appropriate?) where I picked up the line and the location of the tunnel. Or even send the GPS tracks. Let me know!
Your post initially baffled me, as the tunnel’s location was unknown. The best I could determine, the tunnel is somewhere between Williams and Ash Fork (AZ). The double-track line between those points had the appearance of paired track, and each main took a different route. With the line relocation of this thread (1959-1960), both mains between Williams and Ash Fork were not needed. The main that Santa Fe abandoned was the tunnel route you mentioned. The surviving main continues today and goes southwardly from Ask Fork to Phoenix.
A video link is below of getting to and going through the tunnel, though the video I don’t think pinpoints the tunnel location.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qF0stmJuf0
For your information, as well as the rest of the forum, in researching the tunnel, one website (address unknown) totally locked up my computer, and I had to turn it off. My computer is protected by Deep Freeze, so I’m not too worried about malicious websites, but others beware.
Take care,
I know this post is quite old, but I visisted the area in question 9/13/15 and thought you guys might enjoy a picture of the previously mentioned tunnel! I have video of the approach as well, I'll post that after I get it uploaded.
Although I rarely vacation to Arizona I have found this discussion quite interesting. I love abandon train tunnels and all the more better if you can visit them through a national park. I have never heard of the Johnson Canyon tunnel. It must have been in a very remote place as there doesn't seem to be any photos of it when it was active.
Un-Solving the 'Really Solved' to Solve It
Got that doubletalk?
An aspect of this topic was mentioned in the thread "Sunset Route Two-Tracking Updates." BNSF6400 responded with two key replies in that thread. I found BNSF6400's reasoning and sources quite credible. He indicated the east of Ash Fork natural crossover was NOT a natural crossover at all, but that it only had that appearance.
The posts by BNSF6400 are on page 161 (March 6, 2012) of the "Sunset Route Two-Tracking Updates" thread.
So, right running double-track from the west (with Automatic Block Signals) reversed to left running at the natural crossover WEST of Ash Fork, and remained left running all the way to Belen, NM. Here and there are geographic locations that make left-running practical.
With the big 1959-1960 line relocation, the Seligman-Winslow, AZ trackage was CTC'ed, and in that manner biases got reversed, and NOT with a natural crossover. So, the February 10, 2012 post on this page 4 titled "Transition Mystery Solved!" was basically right.
In the "Sunset Route Two-Tracking Updates" thread, ccltrains mentioned a video on the AT&SF reroute. Cacole (on March 8, 2012, page 162) in that thread found a link to such a video, which link is duplicated below for interested parties.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsllGIKfPn0
The video is short of 30 minutes long, and is well worth watching.
Now It Is Really Solved!
On February 10, 2012, "Transition Mystery Solved!" was posted. Yesterday, March 5, 2012, another natural crossover was discovered by K.P. that puts a different slant to the matter. It is unbelievable that K.P. missed it in the first place ...
EAST OF ASH FORK NATURAL CROSSOVER
Previously ...
West of Ash Fork Natural Crossover
With old and new lines, Winslow, AZ was still the transition point, with biases west of Winslow generally right handed, whereas east of Winslow was left handed. That must have been especially pronounced in Automatic Block Signal (ABS) days of "Double Track" (as opposed to todays "two-tracks").
In the late 1970's / early 1980's K.P. personally saw the left biased route EAST of Winslow, obviously evidenced by the then proliferation of cantilevered signal bridges compared to mast signals used for right biased trackage west of Seligman.
It is unknown what type of signaled track arrangement was used in steam days, BEFORE the Winslow fueling facility for diesels came about. But, it probably was the same. The logic in NOT having a flyover in the Winslow area to keep things fluid and trains moving may have been that everything was slow going anyway, as it probably was an important re-coaling and/or steam engine trade-out stop.
Tried to open the MK video but got a message that it had been removed. I have seen this video a while back and will try to locate the source and post it here.
Mr. Harrier, thank you for your kind and very generous words. There were more than 60 engineers of various types working on the Williams-Crookton line change. Yes I have been back and have conducted tours for friends before the 9-11 events caused BNSF to restrict access. It was a grand experience for a young man.
The original line (would now be called Main 1) was approximately the same length after the line change. But the circuitous second main was shortened about three miles.
diningcar (2-10):
Yes, a lot HAS transpired since the Williams-Crookton line change!
The "Transcon" is now all CTC, and in some places triple-track is present, as in San Bernardino, CA at the far western approach to Cajon Pass.
Back when you surveyed and plotted the Williams-Crookton line change in Arizona, AT&SF was basically a double-track railroad, so converting that area back in 1959-1960 to a two-track line was sort of a novelty.
Traffic volumes have at least tripled since your work in 1959-60. No wonder BNSF CTC'ed and basically two-tracked the whole Los Angeles-Chicago line.
Have you, diningcar, visited your old haunting ground in Arizona of late? If you have, undoubtedly you said to yourself, "I actually plotted this! Wow!" What an element of personal satisfaction you undoubtedly received, something probably none of us others at the forum will ever have.
Now that my final personal mystery that stemmed from your past work has been figured out and posted about, I hoped your satisfaction has been broadened.
I have more info about Ash Fork than in the previous posts.
When the Valley of the Sun began shipping fresh fruits and vegetables to eastern markets they of course were shipped in cars refrigerated with ice stored in bins at each end of the car. As the ice melted it had to be replenished so ice plants were established at appropriate locations. Ash Fork was one of those locations. But there was the problem with the connection at the east end of Ash Fork since trains entered the yard with a west movement, while their destination was eastward.
That is why the Phoenix line was relocated to the west end of the yard. The ice plant and ice loading platform were built on the north side of the existing yard so that the refigerated trains, through a series of crossovers, could pull along the ice loading docks and then leave Ash Fork with an eastward move. The wye track located north of the Transcon and east of the yard allowed the Phoenix line engines to be turned for return to Phoenix and the Transcon locomotives to be coupled for the continuing eastward move of the reefer train. Of course the wye would have been used for other moves as necessary such as turning the helper movements to Williams.
A lot has transpired since the Williams-Crookton line change which became operational 12-19-1960.
Now the Transcon is all CTC between Belen and San Bernardino ( much more CTC than this but this is the current subject). So the DS can have any train operate on either track no matter which direction it is going. With CP's every 8-12 miles trains pass, or meet , wherever the DS chooses in his quest to expedite priority trains.
Transition Mystery Solved!
A brief review: Up into the 1950's in the WEST Santa Fe trains were RIGHT-track running under "double-track" rules, with each track signaled in only one direction. In the EAST, trains were LEFT-track running. The magical transition point was a number of miles west of Ash Fork, AZ, where one track went over the other.
Old natural crossover area
That magical point of transition disappeared with the big line relocation in 1959-1960. So, where is the transition point today? In Winslow, AZ! But, the situation is very different because one track does NOT go over the other.
In Winslow, there is a fueling facility, with what looks like four tracks on aerials. Any track can be used and it is slow going through the area. Left biased trains from the east end-up right biased as they head west and vice versa.
Winslow, AZ fueling facility
The fooling difficulty was that between Seligman and Winslow, AZ the line was CTC'ed in conjunction with the big line change, and the Dispatcher could transition trains anywhere between those points. But, the key point IS Winslow! That is where trains passing through go the slowest, and can be in a logjam environment. Even without any biases to deal with, any fueling facility is a slow going, often a logjam type place.
So, Winslow, AZ solves the transition mystery!
I was able to access a 1916 Santa Fe station map, 1' = 100', and it shows only the one wye track located in the middle of the station grounds. The wye and overlay shown to the east on KP's aerial are not depicted on this official map.
Also, this 1916 map shows the Prescott - Phoenix line connection at the east end of Ash Fork with no wye connection eastward to the Santa Fe main tracks.
timz and KP:
timz is correct about the X designation, my memory failed once more. Thanks timz.
KP, your aerial photo is better than mine and I now see a possible wye on the north side of the track which lies westerly from the more prominent wye, both of which are east of Doublea Ranch Rd.
Also looking at your Mapquest photo the connection of the Santa Fe, Prescott & Phoenix line may be shown on the south side of the Santa Fe main and paralleling the current City of Ash Fork street that connects to Doublea Ranch Rd. If indeed this mark on the earth is the remains of the connection between the Santa Fe and the SFP&P then it also appears that there was a wye created here too as another mark on the earth seems to make an easterly connection. If these marks are the wye used to turn the Phoenix trains then the wye(s) to the north had another purpose.
Ash Fork was a busy terminal with a large station grounds. Prior to 1960 helper service emanated here and so a substantial mechanical department facility and staff worked here.
K. P. Harrier [snip] That was something new (at least for me) about insulating clips. I wonder if they act is a wear cushion? For years the railroads have done without them (at least around here). So, it would be interesting to find out the logic in them now. K.P.
For years the railroads have done without them (at least around here). So, it would be interesting to find out the logic in them now.
Probably only indirectly. Wear at that point in the assembly - at the edge of the base of the rail and the mating surface on the railclip holder, and on the top corner of the rail base - has usually not been a problem. Instead, that wear has been mainly under the rail seat area, where most of the weight and flexure occurs. Towards the bottom of the linked page, you'll see several plastic pads, abrasion plates, and and abrasion pads which are much larger for installation there to address that problem, although one - the "U1036 3-Part Pad Assy" - does appear to also include the insulator as one of those parts.
If the railroads around there have been using concrete ties without the plastic insulators for years before as you say, the obvious and rational explanation - to me anyway - is that those railroads have recently found or concluded that the concrete ties by themselves are not reliable enough insulators to keep the rails electrically isolated as much as they want. Whatever the electrical insulation performance of that system has been there in the dry SouthWest in years past, with the recent higher traffic levels and dependable signal system performance becoming more important than ever in keeping traffic fluid and maintaining capacity by not having a lot of 'false reds' creating bottlenecks of 'Restricted Speed' running, so the conclusion may well have been to start using them, despite the added cost, time and complexity of installing them, in the interest of more reliable signal system performance.
The other possibility is that with aggressive minerals out there, the steady electric current of the signal system leaking through the ties may have caused a galvanic reaction and corrosion problem - most likely in the concrete ties - especially whenever it rained, even if infrequently. The insulating pads would cut off that current and reaction, too.
- Paul North.
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